Hi myfirstlove...

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Christopher

Hi Chris,

Some answers to some of your questions.

Should Christians Vote?
As we who are Christians come to understand and appreciate the blessings that God has bestowed upon us, the position in which He has placed us in this world, and the hope that we have for all eternity, I believe we will come to the realization that God has not called us to get involved in the politics of the world. Let us briefly consider the principles from Scripture that suggest that Christians should not vote.
"Our conversation [or citizenship] is in heaven, from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ" (Phil. 3:20). If we are citizens of the United States, we do not go to Canada, Switzerland, Kenya, or any other country to vote in the elections of those countries. By analogy, if we are citizens of heaven, it is inappropriate for us to take part in government elections on earth. We are ambassadors for Christ" (2 Cor. 5:20).
The blessings that we possess as Christians are in heaven. "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: ... and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 1:3; 2:4-6).
Further, we are enjoined by the Lord Jesus, "Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth ... but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, ... for where your treasure is, there will your heart be also" (Matt. 6:19-21). The reason we want to have our hearts centered in heaven is that Christ Himself is there: "If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection [or mind] on things above, not on things on the earth" (Col. 3:1-4).
Finally, our whole future for the ages of eternity lies in heaven. "I will come again and receive you unto Myself, that where I am, there ye may be also" (John 14:3). "The Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shot, ... and the dead in Christ shall rise first; then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (1 Thess. 4:16,17).
Thus, our citizenship is in heaven, not on earth. Our blessings are in heaven, not on earth. Our treasure is to be laid up in heaven, not on earth. Our mind is to be set on things above, not on things on the earth. And our dweling place for eternity will be in heaven, not on earth. Do not these simple truths speak volumes to us as to our involvement in earthly causes and politics?
In all things we have Christ as our example for our walk here on earth (1 Pet. 2:21; 1 John 2:3-6). If we study His life and walk here on earth, as described in the Gospels, we will find that He was not occupied with trying to influence government officials, alter the laws of the land, or bring about a change in government in His native country. Rather, He was occupied with showing the people their lost, sinful condition (Matt. 18:11; 22:12,13; Luke 5:32; 13:3; 15:1-31; 16:19-31; 19:10) and what they must do to be saved (John 3:16; 3:36; 5:24; 6:35,51; 10:9). He said of His disciples, "They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world" (John 17:16).
The apostle Paul as well, with all of his zeal and energy, directed that energy totally toward bringing the good news of salvation to the world and toward building up the saints in Christ. He taught that we should "be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God; the powers that be are ordained of God" (Rom. 13:1). He also enjoined that "supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for ... kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty, for this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour" (1 Tim. 2:1-3). Thus, instead of trying to bring in a change in our nation's leaders and officials and lawmakers, we are enjoined to be subject to them and pray for them.
Now taking a stand of not voting and not getting involved in our nation's politics on the ground that we are citizens of heaven caries with it some weighty implications that we do well to consider:
1. We will accept without complaint the fact that some of our public officials are morally corrupt or dishonest or apathetic or incompetent (Dan. 4:17). Instead of complaining about them we will pray for them.
2. We will accept without complaint any legislation passed, including that favoring abortion, permitting pornography, enhancing gay rights, etc., and we won't seek to influence legislation by signing petitions that are aimed at preserving Christian freedoms and maintaining some semblance of national morality. Rather, we will pray for our legislators and seek ways to show the love and compassion of Christ to those involved in and affected by these evils.
3. We will accept without complaint high taxes and poor public services (such as the quality of public education, condition of roads, speed of mail delivery, etc.). We will be so occupied with the things of the Lord and with leading others out of earthly darkness into heavenly light that we will not be bothered about how our tax money is being spent.
4. We will accept without complaint increasing lawlessness, crime, and persecution of the righteous in our country. Rather we will allow these adversities to cast us all the more wholly upon the Lord and upon our fellow-Christians (see Matt. 5:10-12). Also we will seek ways of showing the love of Christ to the victims, and criminals and prisoners.
If we are heavenly-minded to the extent that we do not get mixed up with the politics of the world, neither will we have any interest in indulging in the pleasures the world has to offer. We will not be seeking to be entertained at the world's theaters, pool halls, night clubs, rock concerts, etc., nor by ungodly television programs and videos in our homes. Neither will we be laying up treasures upon earth (Matt. 6:19), nor ambitiously seeking fame, fortune, promotion, and reputation in this world through our jobs, social circles, club memberships, and the like.
"Ye are the salt of the earth" (Matt. 5:13), the Lord told His disciples. Salt here is symbolic of a preservative, and some take this as warranting Christians being active in trying to preserve our nation from the evil forces of communism, secular humanism, pornography, etc. But, as we mentioned earlier, we find neither the Lord nor His apostles engaged in this kind of preservative work. I believe it has been well said the "One cannot legislate morality." The only way to be a lasting influence for good in one's community and nation is to be helping our fellow citizens to receive Christ as their Saviour, and helping and encouraging our fellow-Christians to be obedient to "be followers [or imitators] of God" (Eph. 5:1), to "love not the world" (1 John 2:15), and to be obedient to the Word of God.
The Scripture says that "in the last days ... men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, ... fierce, despisers of those that are good. ... Evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived" (2 Tim. 3:1-13). I do not believe it is possible by any political means to stem the time of wickedness described in these verses. If one kind of evil is eliminated through legislation or swift execution of justice, the void will quickly be replaced by another kind of evil. What this world needs is changed lives more than changed laws. So may we who have the light of Christ in our lives be faithful to proclaim Christ to the world and show forth in our lives His love and light to those about us. "Ye are the light of the world. ... Let your light [that is, Christ] so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven" (Matt. 5:14-16).
In conclusion, consider Abraham's nephew, Lot. When the angels came to Sodom to rescue Lot and his family from the judgment that was about to fall upon that wicked city, where did they find him? "Lot sat in the gate of Sodom" (Gen. 19:1), meaning that he had a place of leadership and authority there. Lot is described in the New Testament as "just" and "righteous," and "vexed with the filthy conversation [or behavior] of the wicked (2 Pet. 2:7,8). But instead of separating himself and his family from the wickedness, he seemingly allied himself with the unbelievers by becoming one of those authorities who "sat in the gate." He may have thought he could change the tide of lawlessness and immorality in Sodom by his influence there at the gate, but we sadly see just the opposite effect.
Not only was the entire city destroyed by "brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven" (Gen 19:24), thus attesting to Lot's total failure in influencing the city for good, but we find failure in influencing his own family for good, and indeed failure in his own relationship with Jehovah. When he went out to warn his sons-in-law to flee, "he seemed as one that mocked" unto them (verse 14). Lot himself lingered so long that the angels had to practically drag him and his wife and daughters out of the city (verse 16). His wife was so attached to Sodom that she disobeyed the angels' command, "Look not behind thee," and died, transfixed on the spot where she turned around to catch one last, fleeting glimpse of her beloved city (verse 26). And his daughters were so imbued with the immoral climate of Sodom that they made their father drunk and entered into an incestuous relationship with him (verses 31-38).
What a solemn warning this gives us to separate ourselves from this "present evil world" (Gal. 1:4) rather than joining any effort with the goal of improving the world which is soon going to be judged by God. May we be more heavenly-minded, having Christ as our one object. May we strive to "be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom [we] shine as lights in the world" (Phil. 2:15).
--Paul L. Canner

I hear that we should choose to vote for those who represent Conservative and Christian views...

I ask, do we have a real choice...

I ask, what choice do we have when those who proclaim to represent Conservative and Family values, actually do? Would you vote for U.S. Senators Dave Vitter, Tom Foley, or Larry Craig?

There are times where God gives a nation what it deserves...

Isaiah 3:

Is. 3:1 For, behold, the Lord, the LORD of hosts, doth take away from Jerusalem and from Judah the stay and the staff, the whole stay of bread, and the whole stay of water, 2 The mighty man, and the man of war, the judge, and the prophet, and the prudent, and the ancient, 3 The captain of fifty, and the honourable man, and the counsellor, and the cunning artificer, and the eloquent orator. 4 And I will give children to be their princes, and babes shall rule over them. 5 And the people shall be oppressed, every one by another, and every one by his neighbour: the child shall behave himself proudly against the ancient, and the base against the honourable.

What choice do we have in this day?

In Christ
jeff

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Jeff Marshalek

What a clear call to the whole post and to those who will read, Pastor Frin. I find myself, after reading what you wrote, still attached to earthly things…Yes, the Lord will do His final lumberjack duties and heave His mighty axe upon this root…of which I am praying now. You have written exactly, in my opinion, what is on the Lord's heart. To care not at all for earthly things but care for that which is eternal which is men's souls. This is a kind of message that bears weight, yet it is a simple message, as was Christ's. Many will deny its power. Oh, may we long for the simplicity that is in Christ Jesus and not be complicated by the world and its tug on all who will turn around to look, but may we be burning bushes for the worldly to turn and look upon and turn them from the error of their ways.

Does this mean no vote at all...even if it is a 'good' thing to do. How shall we be perfect in this issue, Saints? Be ye perfect, as your Heavenly Father is perfect...

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RICH

For consideration into the mix of matters;


Isa 30:18 Therefore the LORD waits to be gracious to you, and therefore he exalts himself to show mercy to you. For the LORD is a God of justice; blessed are all those who wait for him.

Isa 56:1 Thus says the LORD: "Keep justice, and do righteousness, for soon my salvation will come, and my deliverance be revealed.

Isa 61:8 For I the LORD love justice; I hate robbery and wrong; I will faithfully give them their recompense, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them.

And what more shall I say? For time would fail me to tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets who through faith conquered kingdoms, enforced [i]justice[/i], obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, Heb 11:32,33

Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. Rom 13:1-4

Now it came to pass in those days, there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be enrolled. This was the first enrollment made when Quirinius was governor of Syria. And all went to enroll themselves, every one to his own city.

And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, to the city of David, which is called Bethlehem, because he was of the house and family of David; to enroll himself with Mary, who was betrothed to him, being great with child.

And it came to pass, while they were there, the days were fulfilled that she should be delivered. Luk 2:1-6

And when they were come to Capernaum, they that received tribute money came to Peter, and said, Doth not your master pay tribute? He saith, Yes. And when he was come into the house, Jesus prevented him, saying, What thinkest thou, Simon? of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute? of their own children, or of strangers? Peter saith unto him, Of strangers. Jesus saith unto him, Then are the children free. Notwithstanding, lest we should offend them, go thou to the sea, and cast an hook, and take up the fish that first cometh up; and when thou hast opened his mouth, thou shalt find a piece of money: that take, and give unto them for me and thee. Mat 17:24-27

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Mike Balog

Not to forget this as we are 'thinking':

Isaiah 9:6-7
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. [7] Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.


The increase of 'His' government and peace there shall be 'No' end.
Not done by man, it is done by Him.
To order it, and establish it with judgment and with justice; How?
"The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this. His zeal, not mans, His judgment, not mans, and His justice and peace, not mans; and it is 'His Kingdom' not mans.

Col. 3:1-4
If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. [2] Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. [3] For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. [4] When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.


Praise His Glorious Name, for only He is worthy to receive and rule His Kingdom.

Until that day

In His Love
pastorfrin

Pastorfrin...

I understand the passages that you have shown as talking both about God's ETERNAL kingdom -- and the future millenial kingdom. We must also remember that God raises up and tears down kingdoms and leaders back here on Earth.

It is interesting to note that some of the political isolationists (not talking about you, pastorfrin) who refuse to vote feel the liberty to enjoy the protections and blessings of this nation's governments. This nation has protected the liberty of its people for over 200 years.

The blessings of this nation are completely apparent to everyone in the world. In the United States, it is ILLEGAL to STARVE! The laws of the nation are meant to protect the population. Yet sometimes, laws are created that have an adverse effect upon believers and the nation in general. It is during such times that a person can use their voice (their vote) to bring about natural change WHILE AT THE SAME TIME offering their humble prayers to our God.

We are indeed pilgrims traveling across this land. But we are also Ambassadors of Christ. Why, then, would it be wrong to let our voice be heard in every aspect of our lives? Our voice (as believers) does not change. It should be the same wherever we go. If we feel the liberty to preach in a nation that protects such speech, then why can we not share that same "voice" in the voting booth?

The argument that "voting" equates to "trusting in man" is either fatally flawed or hypocritical in nature. Those who share it refuse to deny the protections of this nation -- including the right to voice their opinion in an internet forum! Regardless of how "unspiritual" such an act (like voting) may appear, we all are involved with the government whether we want to or not. Yet we can keep our eternal citizenship -- without compromise -- by remaining true to our Father in Heaven. We can also share what we feel is right by voting.

This is no more "trusting in man" than writing a post in a forum on this website. You are sharing your voice with others in the hope to impact opinion or belief. That is EXACTLY what a vote is. While you may not like ANY of the candidates in each election (local, state or national), you can still vote by priorities. I hate abortion. So I will vote for the candidate who at least professes a desire to limit the slaughter of millions of unborn children.

:-)

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Christopher