Oh LittleGift, I got on and just read your first post on this previous page and my reaction is one that I wish I could have "edited".

Oh hum. When I saw how you quoted Mike, I didn't go back to read the whole of what he had written and I fired into him.

Too bad you couldn't come up with words now that would "help at the moment".

Well, now I have to go see your new thread and disagree there. Ha.

No, I'm not on a rampage. And I don't own any weapons neither. :-?

EDIT: Not "fired up" LittleSheep --- I was defending Sheep, from being labeled for something I saw none of the "ewes" doing, I don't think Mike's words were appropriate toward any of us, even if they weren't directed at me, but on a second look at your post, coming to the defense of other sheep can get one mauled.
As I explained about the head ewe mentality - and where I've learned to be watchful of that characteristic also.

Maybe Mike's never raised sheep like I had to for a while, but this "ewe" thing can get quite tricky sometimes. And shepherds can get that way too. I'm 'still' learning about it all also.


Even so, Come Lord Jesus ~ Amen!

Phillip I really appreciate your wisdom and tact and knowledge of this whole topic. I agree with you when you wrote:

"I see no reason that woman can not teach a man as long as her head is covered, with the intention of not lording it over the man." (not quite sure how to do the quote thing here)

This follows the principle of the text in I Timothy 2:12 (I do not permit a women to teach or have authority over a man) that still applies today.

1. Paul's reason for writing this text:

The women in the Ephesian church were being led astray by a cult that said that women were dominant and they worshiped a goddess. They were trying to "usurp" the authority of the men and aggressively dominate them.

2. Paul also very clearly allowed and endorsed women in leadership (Ro. 16) in the church and acknowledged that women prayed and prophecied out loud in church (I Cor.) So this excludes the thought that women must be entirely silent in church. The text in I Timothy 2 says that "women much learn in quietness and submission". The reason for this is that the women were disrupting the worship service and trying to take it over, and they were in error in their beliefs from this cult. So Paul instructed them to learn instead of speak out loud the wrong things they were saying.

2. Priscilla and Aquila both taught Apollos. Incidently Priscilla is listed first whenever the two are mentioned. So Paul cannot mean that all women everywhere in every setting cannot teach men. The two of them had a church that met in their home.

3. Deborah lead or judged the nation of Israel. That meant that both men and women came to her for leadership and guidance. God raised her up in response to the Isrealites crying out in their bondage. God raised up a woman.

My conclusion as well as maannnnnnny others in the church is that in I Timothy Paul was addressing a specific situation that cannot be applied universally to all women at all times in every setting. But rather there is a principle that still applies today. And that principle is divine order as in creation.

*****My biggest point to say is, Dont assume that just because a woman is in a pulpit she is trying to usurp the male authority in that setting. The women in Ephesus were, and Eve was because they were both going against the command of God. There have been and are many women that were/are under male authority and not only endorsed by the men but needed and encouraged to operate in their divine calling. And they are leading men and women closer to Christ from what they teach. They are not in error, they are in obedience to God's Word. They are submitted to male authority and operating in their callings.


I believe you can do both. And so do countless believers in the body of Christ. To assume a woman is in rebellion just because she is preaching/teaching a mixed audience is doing a discredit to Paul's ministry and his own endorsement of women following Chirst. It's all about perspective.

So the question to ask, to me is, "what is the intent of this women speaking in this setting? Is she teaching falsities, and trying to mislead others away from God and his commands? If not then let God use her for his glory.

Peace in Christ

When I went years looking for a good Church that preached like the Classic Authors I'm used to, I first looked also for how the Pastor treated GOD'S sheep. Also, if there are assistant Pastors, I also watch how they treat the Shepherd's Sheep.

If all these do well, then I know I'm in a safe Church, where I can sit and learn, grow and have safe fellowship.

BUT - if the Pastor or his Asst. Pastor's are quick to judge and come right out with words that are cutting, even when a person is trying hard to say the right things or are immediately slapped with a Scripture verse that's not the nicest to use on someone that they don't truly know ... then in my book, from reading all of John Chpt. 10 - THAT is not the Spirit of The Good Shepherd working through them.

If they demand meekness, kindness, gentle non-judgmental words from their members, but snap hurting insulting words at will at the people -- that is not the Shepherd of John 10.

If the Assistant Pastors have this type of attitude and the Pastor lets them get away with it or even encourages that behavior of 'how to treat sheep' that come to their flock, even if the sheep are not preaching or teaching blatant heresy to the flock, then that is a Church any one of us should get out of.
But first, you could tell them why you're leaving.

I've seen this. Where a sheep or a few, will just bring up a question or opinion and nothing but sheer nastiness comes from those in charge and judging and implications and snide remarks, sometimes even using Scripture to do so.

I expect the sheep to not be perfect in any Church I may go to ---- but those in charge --- if they smart mouth or verbally abuse or anything remotely like that, the Sheep ---- I'm outta there.

This is called the 'misuse' of Authority or Dominance gone wild. Just plain old Unfairness.

Shepherds don't beat sheep.

If we as man sense a woman is under the headship of Jesus Christ, she will already not have been what Paul was warning Ephesus and Corinth and others in disrupting the physical Church on this earth. If that woman that is under Christ and any man senses and knows it including me I will Listen to her when she is speaking by the Christ in Her and I don't believe that the God that gives her the spiritual teaching is going to glorify men if they don't listen. Our Glory is Christ also and He is our Head both women and men. Why would we demean our teaching from the Holy Spirit by not allowing the woman to speak what God has given Her.

Again Paul says we have a deeper place we can go when it comes to our salvation. Christ is our life and if we go on into that perfection, that perfection where He is the Head of His Body the Church we are touching the Kingdom of God on this earth where we are already seated in Heavenly Places in Christ Jesus. If there is a problem in an individual Church with the women then they have not gotten past the warnings of Paul. They should heed these warnings and make all things in the Church in order, so they can get past this earthly church and go on into the heavenly.

Hebrews 6:1-3 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit.

This perfection is upon all those that have surpassed the principles of Christ when it comes to doctrine in the Churches. We can listen to each other and being in Christ we can hear what God is speaking to those that have surpassed the milk and are on the meat. This includes the whole Body of Christ His Church, men and women all one in Christ, seeking each other wisdom of all that Christ and God have chosen in Him. Eph 5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord.

Are our hearts making melody to the Lord in unison by hearing each other and knowing all is coming from the Christ that is in us. We can test these things and know when they are real and from the Lord.

Thank you ladies for opening your hearts and trying to help us men to see these truths.

In Christ: Phillip

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Phillip

[url=http://www.biblebb.com/files/mac/54-14.htm]God's High Calling for Women[/url]

Part 1 by John MacArthur

Series,

[url=http://www.biblebb.com/brefindex/1ti.htm]Scripture References Book of 1 Timothy[/url]

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Mike Balog