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Robert Wurtz II

Question:

Is the "All" Israel shall be saved the same as

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Robert Wurtz II

Hi Compliments (you said)
Likewise, is the "ALL" Israel means "ALL" Israel? Whether they believe or not?


RobertW said
I would have to say absolutely no.


I agree. [i]Believing[/i] is the pivot for any Christian claim.


Here are two parts of Romans 11, with the olive tree references left out to keep it short.

11 - 14
I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation [i]has come[/i] to the Gentiles. Now if their fall [i]is[/i] riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness! For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, if by any means I may provoke to jealousy [i]those who are[/i] my flesh and save [u]some[/u] of them [Israel]...

26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this [i]is[/i] My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins."


The only way we experience the taking away of our sins, is by faith and the Holy Spirit's application of that truth of Christ's work.


Paul could not have had any kind of universalism in mind for Jews, when he wrote 'all Israel', as he doesn't apply 'universalism' to gentiles either.

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Aaron Ireland

Aaron, thank you for working this thing through in this post. I believe you have said it right and also by adding, that it is we who need to be the Bereans.

The Church will see the tribulation and not just The Jews.
That is an almost or is, a sadder ignorance on the part of "the church" as what the true Israel is going through now ... until Messiah comes.

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Aaron Ireland

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Robert Wurtz II

I don't like doing big posts, but I need to show you how right on Aaron and Robert's posts are.

There are the Pre-Trib group yelling "Israel - right or wrong" and then the anti-true-Israel-Jews folks, obviously. The battle rages but no one knows in either of these "christian" groups, 'who' they are really defending or defaming.
Boast not against the natural branches lest you ... but be wise as serpants but as harmless as Doves.

Jerusalem has been planned to be the Seat of the antiChrist since Satan learned God's Plan.

Satan's plan, called by the "powers that be" in his control is called also, "The Plan". From the horses' own mouths.

Long articles to post, but I pray you can understand why I'm posting them and why there is this anti-true-jew spirit trying to suck in true-believers but also the delusional view of Israel can do no harm amongst us.

May have to do it in two posts, but I'm sure if you can pick out a few words, it wouldn't take long for the picture to come together - but know these articles are just the tip of the iceburg of what one could post on this.

The first is just a link about those who Richard Wurmbrand warned us about (just for one of the small ONEs) ...
http://www.wcc-coe.org/wcc/what/international/palestine/state19.html

[b]Who's building the temple ?[/b]

"Of all the objects which constitute the Masonic science of symbolism, the most important, the most cherished, by the Mason, and by far the most significant, is the Temple of Jerusalem. The spiritualizing of the Temple is the first, the most prominent and the most pervading, of all symbols of Freemasonry ... Take from Freemasonry its dependence on the Temple; leave out of its ritual all references to that sacred edifice, and to the legends and traditions connected with it, and the system itself would at once decay and die ... " [b]"Encyclopaedia of Freemasonry"[/b], by Albert Mackey, MD, 33º and Charles T. McClenachan, 33º, Revised Edition, by Edward L. Hawkins, 30º and William J. Hughan, 32º, Volume II, M-Z, published by The Masonic History Company, Chicago, New York, London, 1873, A.G. Mackey, 1927, by the Masonic History Company.

"The traditions and romance of King Solomon's Temple are of great interest to everyone who reads the Bible. They are of transcendent importance to Masons. The Temple is the outstanding symbol in Masonry, and the legendary story of the building of the Temple is the fundamental basis of the Masonic rule and guide for conduct in life ... The cream of Masonic historical and philosophical writing has been drawn upon for his description of the Temple and its relation to Masonic ritual." [[b]The Holy Bible: The Great Light In Masonry", King James Version, Temple Illustrated Edition,[/b] A.J. Holman Company, 1968, Forward entitled, "The Bible and King Solomon's Temple in Masonry", by John Wesley Kelchner].

"... In all the rich symbolism of Ancient Craft Masonry two symbols, or symbolic themes, predominate. One is the search for light; the other is the labor of building. The source of light is the Holy Bible, and the grand representation of the builder's art is King Solomon's Temple .... It was natural that imaginative stone Masons, long before the development of anything like our modern fraternity, should have felt a kinship with the great builders of all ages. It was natural also that they should have acknowledge a peculiar attraction for the most famous and glorious of all building enterprises, King Solomon's Temple and Citadel. Interest and attraction for the wonderful structure on Mt. Moriah have increased rather than diminished ... until today the Temple of Solomon is the spiritual home of every Mason." [b]Masonic Holy Bible, Temple Illustrated Edition,[/b] A.J. Holman Co., 1968, p. 11-14]

"And so to these two classes or Orders of Masons the symbolism of the Temple presents itself in a connected and continuous form. [u]To the Master Mason, the Temple of Solomon is the symbol of this life; to the Royal Arch Mason, the Temple of Zerubbabel is the symbol of the future life.[/u] To the former, his Temple is the symbol of the search for truth; to the latter, his is the symbol of the discovery of truth; and thus the circle is completed and the system made perfect." [Ibid., Pages 774-775; Emphasis added]

"The Freemasons have, at all events, seized with avidity the idea of representing in their symbolic language the interior and spiritual man by a material temple ... [u]The great body of the Masonic Craft, looking only to this first Temple erected by the wisdom of King Solomon, make it the symbol of life; and as the great object of Masonry is the search after truth, they are directed to build up this temple as a fitting receptacle for truth ..." [/u][b]"Encyclopaedia of Freemasonry"[/b], by Albert Mackey, MD, 33º and Charles T. McClenachan, 33º, Revised Edition, by Edward L. Hawkins, 30º and William J. Hughan, 32º, Volume II, M-Z, published by The Masonic History Company, Chicago, New York, London, 1873, A.G. Mackey, 1927, by the Masonic History Company, p. 774]

"The Temple of Masonry is hence forward the house of Christ' ... [Edward Waite, p. 486-7, "[b]A New Encyclopedia of Freemasonry and of Cognate Instituted Mysteries: The Rites, Literature and History"[/b], Volume II, reprinted in 1970 by Weathervane Books., p. 314]

"... [b]in the High Grades [of Masonry] we hear of a secret intention to build yet another temple at Jerusalem." [Author, Edward Waite, p. 486-7, "A New Encyclopedia of Freemasonry and of Cognate Instituted Mysteries: The Rites, Literature and History", Volume II, reprinted in 1970 by Weathervane Books[/b].

"Concerning the building of this temple, the Zohar teaches that Solomon's Temple was not built according to the original plans ... In a word, the Lord did not build the House, and they laboured in vain that built it ... There is a time, however, to come, when the Holy One shall remember His people, Israel, and the Lord shall build the House." [Author, Edward Waite, p. 486-7, "[b]A New Encyclopedia of Freemasonry and of Cognate Instituted Mysteries: The Rites, Literature and History", Volume II,[/b] reprinted in 1970 by Weathervane Books].

"It is known to every reader of the Bible and student of Solomon's days, that an amazingly detailed description of the Temple and its associated structures has been carried down from the mists of antiquity by the Scriptures. Lineal measurements, materials employed, and ornamental detail are so graphically presented that restoration of the Temple, at any time within a score of centuries past, awaited only the coming of a man with the vision to recognize its historic value, and the imagination to undertake the task." [b]Foreword, "The Bible and King Solomon's Temple in Masonry", by John Wesley Kelchner, 1968, A. J. Holman Company.][/b]

[b]THE VATICAN'S JERUSALEM AGENDA[/b]
By Barry Chamish, 17 September 1997
Shimon Peres made a very weird deal with the Vatican. Consider the evidence:
* On Sept. 10, '93, just three days before the signing of the Declaration of Principles in Washington, the Italian news magazine La Stampa reported that part of the peace deal was an unwritten understanding that the Vatican would receive political authority over the Old City of Jerusalem by the end of the millenium. The newspaper reported that Shimon Peres had promised the pope to hand over the holy sites of Jerusalem the previous May and that Arafat had accepted the agreement.
* In March '94, the Israeli newsmagazine Shishi published an interview with Mark Halter, a French intellectual and close friend of Shimon Peres. He said he delivered a letter from Peres to the pope the previous May, within which Peres offered the Vatican hegemony over the Old City of Jerusalem. The article detailed Peres's offer which essentially turned Jerusalem into an international city overseen by the Holy See.
* In March '95, the radio station Arutz Sheva announced that it had received a cable sent by the Israeli Embassy in Rome to the Foreign Ministry in Jerusalem outlining the handover of the Old City of Jerusalem to the Vatican. Two days later Haaretz published the cable on its front page. The Foreign Ministry explained that the cable was genuine but someone had whited out the word "not." ie We will not transfer authority to the Vatican.
Incredibly, numerous Bnei Brak rabbis who had cancelled Passover meetings with Peres over the issue of the cable accepted the explanation and re-invited him to their homes.
Once Labor was in power, negotiations with the Vatican began immediately with Foreign Minister Peres sending his Deputy Yossi Beilin to Rome to hammer out an agreement.
When it was announced in late '93, the public was told that many of the clauses were to remain secret. However, some clauses were leaked, leading to the following consequences.
1- The Foreign Ministry's Legal Affairs Spokesperson Esther Samilag publicly complained about "various capitulations" to the Vatican. She was immediately and suspiciously transferred to a post at the Israeli Embassy in Katmandu, Nepal.
2- MK Avraham Shapira announced in the Knesset that he had information that all Vatican property in Jerusalem was to become tax exempt and that large tracts of real estate on Mount Zion were given to the pope in perpetuity.
3- Jerusalem's Deputy Mayor Shmuel Meir announced that he had received "information that properties promised to the Vatican would be granted extra-territorial status." Perhaps unconnected, Meir died later at the hands of a Palestinian truck driver who was never prosecuted for even dangerous driving.
4=Beilin was forced to answer the accusations. He admitted, "Included in the Vatican Agreement is the issue of papal properties in Israel that will be resolved by a committee of experts that has already been formed." If so, this committee has not since released any proof of its existence.
With all this in mind, how do we interpret the Vatican's current position on Jerusalem?
The following report was circulated by MSANews.
VATICAN CITY, JUN 14, 1997 (VIS) - Archbishop Renato Martino, apostolic nuncio and Holy See permanent observer to the United Nations, spoke June 9 on the status of Jerusalem at the New York headquarters of the Path to Peace Foundation.
The archbishop addressed members of this foundation as well as U.S. members of the Equestrian Order of the Holy Sepulchre of Jerusalem. He began by briefly summarizing the "well-known and long-standing position of the Holy See with regard to Jerusalem. He stated that Jerusalem "for us, of course, along with the rest of the Holy Land, is that special link between heaven and earth, that place where God walked and ultimately died among men.
And of course we recognize that others revere Jerusalem as the city of David and the prophets and the city known to Mohammed. ... It is a spiritual treasure for all of humanity, and it is a city of two peoples, Arabs and Jews, and of the three monotheistic religions, Christianity, Judaism and Islam."
Archbishop Martino added that "in recent years it has been increasingly difficult to break through the political and media-imposed stranglehold on the question of Jerusalem." he recounted Jerusalem's recent history, recalling in particular the UN's General Assembly Resolution 181 of 1947 calling for Jerusalem to be considered a 'corpus separatum' under the Trusteeship Council of the United Nations," a resolution which Israel accepted.
He pointed out that, in addressing the gridlock which has resulted from the 1967 Israeli occupation of East Jerusalem, "the Holy See has therefore advocated the granting to Jerusalem of an 'internationally guaranteed special statute. That is the phrase used by Pope John Paul II in his 1984 Apostolic Letter 'Redemption is Anno'."
This statute "asks that regardless of how the problem of sovereignty is resolved and who is called to exercise it, there should be a supra-national and international entity endowed with means adequate to insure the preservation of the special characteristics of the City, its Holy Places, the freedom to visit them, its religious and ethnic communities, a guarantee of their essential liberties, and its city plan'."
The apostolic nuncio recalled the establishment of diplomatic relations between the Holy See and Israel in 1993, when both signed the 'Fundamental Agreement." He noted Article 4 of this agreement where "both the Holy See and Israel affirm their continuing commitment to the 'Status quo' in the Christian Holy Places."
He also spoke of the problems sparked by Israel's recent authorization of "a project for the construction of settlements in occupied territory in East Jerusalem" for which "there was wide-spread international condemnation." This issue, he reminded those present, was brought before the UN Security Council on March 7 and March 21 of this year, but without resolution "because the sole country on the Security Council which opposed the Resolution was the United States."
An Emergency Session of the General Assembly, "organized only nine other times in the history of the United Nations" was held on April 24-25. The Holy See delegation was contacted and asked for suggestions for a Resolution, Archbishop Martino said. And he recounted the meetings, rough drafts of proposals and negotiations which followed.
The approved texts of the eventual Resolution, he underlined, contained "those points championed by the Holy See. ... The General Assembly has here called for 'internationally guaranteed provisions' - the equivalent of the 'internationally guaranteed special status' called for by Pope John Paul II. This is particularly noteworthy because in this case, the Arab delegations all voted for this Resolution and therefore for this provision."
"The Holy Places within Jerusalem," concluded Archbishop Martino, "are not merely museum relics to be opened and closed by the dominant political authority, no matter who that might be at any given moment. They are living shrines precious to the hearts and faith of believers."
DELSS/STATUS JERUSALEM/UN:MARTINO VIS 970616 (640)
We ask. Could that supra-national entity which will oversee the international city of Jerusalem be the Vatican just as Peres promised?


Barry Chamish is an Israeli journalist.