| Poster | Thread | roaringlamb
Member
Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California
| | Re: | | Deceived by thinking that those whom Jesus died for will not be lost? Deceived in believing that Christ the Good Shepherd will keep His sheep?
I'll take it any day over thinking that I somehow warranted or "chose" to be saved.
EDIT: I like how noone has tried to reason away the words of our Lord from John 6. You cannot misapply verse from Hebrews to somehow erase the words of Christ, of the testimony of God's dealings with Israel throughout the OT.
Again, you cannot explain away these promises
Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Romans 8:30 [b]Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.[/b]
It is a faulty view of what Christ accomplished on the Cross that leads to a misunderstanding of perserverance of the saints, as well as a faulty view of soteriology that would place all the "choosing" in man's hands, but this is not Scriptural.
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patrick heaviside
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|  2007/6/4 21:43 | Profile | ccchhhrrriiisss
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Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779
| | Re: | | RoaringLamb...
Do you believe that it is possible for a person who has met Christ, surrendered their life to Him and known Him in intimacy -- to ever fall into sin and abandon the faith?
If this is possible, do you believe that such an individual will go to Heaven while still abandoned from the faith?
:-(
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Christopher
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| | 2007/6/4 22:47 | Profile | roaringlamb
Member
Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California
| | Re: | | It matters little what I believe, the Scriptures are clear that those who are truly born from above and justified, will be glorified.
Peter denied Christ, yet Jesus did not cast him away. Israel denied Almighty God, yet He does not cast them off. A bruised reed He will not break, nor a smoking flax will He quench.
Maybe those who have made outward professions, never had the inward conversion, but that does not break God's words of assurance to bring His people through.
I cannot believe we are even arguing about this, as this should be the very balm that soothes our souls in time of doubt and distress. The fact that God will hold us, and keep us, and finish what He has begun should not be a point of contention but rather a rallying point for all who are family.
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patrick heaviside
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| | 2007/6/4 23:11 | Profile | rookie
Member
Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN
| | Re: | | Sister Katy wrote:
Quote:
Also if perfection had been attainable under the Levitical priesthood what need would there be for another priest to arise in the order of Melchezidek.
Who served as Abraham's high priest?
In Christ
Jeff
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Jeff Marshalek
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| | 2007/6/4 23:21 | Profile | jimp
Member
Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 1481
| | Re: | | hichris, you love the teachings of brother ravenhill.one saying that i remember is that altars are a place of death ... you don't go to an altar to say the sinners prayer; you go to give up your life to Jesus and take His life in exchange. romans asks how can someone dead sin? if you are walking in the spirit(zoe life)sin has nothing to do with you for there is no condamnation for those in Christ Jesus. none, nada,zero..jimp |
| | 2007/6/5 1:12 | Profile | Christinyou
Member
Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.
| | Re: | | Who served as Abraham's high priest?
God Himself in contemplation and knowledge of Christ the only High Priest, not made with hands or not offering of animals but Himself, an order of High Priest that cannot be but given by God.
In Christ the only high Priest from the foundation of the world. Ephesians 1:6-13 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Our High Priest has chosen us to offer Himself a living sacrifice for the son's of God that we might be living sacrifices unto God our Father.
A kingdom of Priests. Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, [which is] your reasonable service.
We can only present our bodies a living sacrifice by the Living Sacrifice Himself that is born again in us. The only High Priest to make a kingdom of priests. Holy And Acceptable to God, This clay pot the container of The High Priest Himself. Making us Holy and acceptable to God.
In Christ: Phillip
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Phillip
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| | 2007/6/5 3:10 | Profile |
| | Re: | | Can a Christian be deceived?
Luke 21:8
And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.
John 17, Jesus prayed for those who belong to Him. That we KNOW Him, and are sanctified through His truth. This prayer is Jesus last will and testament before going to the Cross. God's Word stands sure and true. Those who KNOW the real Living God have had their senses exercised to know Good and evil.
Hebrews 5:14
But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
Paul said, "That I may KNOW Him, and the fellowship of His suffering...not as thought I am already perfect (mature..or of full age) but I press on.
Children KNOW their sins are forgiven,
Young Men have overcome the Evil one,
to become Fathers, as Paul, pointing the way in which we run this race, said, "though you have many teachers, but not many fathers, be ye followers of me the way I am of Christ".
Ephesians 3 Paul prayed that you would be strengthened with might in the inner man, that you would know the length, breadth, height and depth (the fulness of Christ)(Ephesians 4) and to know the Love of Christ which passeth knowledge, and that it is God who does abundantly above all we could ever ask or think, according to HIS power that works within. To God be the Glory for all the things HE has done. |
| | 2007/6/5 7:13 | |
| | Re: | | Can a Christian be deceived?
Luke 21:8
And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.
John 17, Jesus prayed for those who belong to Him. That we KNOW Him, and are sanctified through His truth. This prayer is Jesus last will and testament before going to the Cross. God's Word stands sure and true. Those who KNOW the real Living God have had their senses exercised to know Good and evil.
Hebrews 5:14
But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
Paul said, "That I may KNOW Him, and the fellowship of His suffering...not as thought I am already perfect (mature..or of full age) but I press on.
Children KNOW their sins are forgiven,
Young Men have overcome the Evil one,
to become Fathers, as Paul, pointing the way in which we run this race, said, "though you have many teachers, but not many fathers, be ye followers of me the way I am of Christ".
Ephesians 3 Paul prayed that you would be strengthened with might in the inner man, that you would know the length, breadth, height and depth (the fulness of Christ)(Ephesians 4) and to know the Love of Christ which passeth knowledge, and that it is God who does abundantly above all we could ever ask or think, according to HIS power that works within. To God be the Glory for all the things HE has done.
Love in Christ
Katy-did :-) |
| | 2007/6/5 7:13 | | ccchhhrrriiisss
Member
Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779
| | Re: | | Hi roaringlamb... Quote:
It matters little what I believe, the Scriptures are clear that those who are truly born from above and justified, will be glorified.
I agree with your first sentence, and to an extent the second. The problem arises when individuals claim as an "inargurable doctrine" those things that are merely a persuasion or interpretation of what the Scriptures truly say. A person who is born again is justified. He will be glorified. The question arises whether or not such a "born again" person can ever depart the faith. My belief is that it is certainly possible for a born again believer to knowingly run ahead and depart the faith. It is my belief that if such a person does not, by the grace of God, return to the faith, then the ultimate end of such a person is damnation -- not salvation.Quote:
I cannot believe we are even arguing about this, as this should be the very balm that soothes our souls in time of doubt and distress. The fact that God will hold us, and keep us, and finish what He has begun should not be a point of contention but rather a rallying point for all who are family.
This is not an "argument" in the sense that we hold animosity toward those with whom we disagree. I don't believe that someone who believes in the idea of "eternal security" is anything less than a believer. "Eternal security," however, is NOT the "rallying point" for the family of God (nor is any controversial "doctrine"). The rallying point for the family of God is that we can all personally know and intimately fellowship with God.
What do I believe about this debate? Someone a few posts back made reference to my respect for the writings of Leonard Ravenhill. When I met with him in his home in 1994 (when I was but a young teen), we discussed quite a few things. One of the things that he said is that he does not take a stand on such a debate -- on either side. He said it is pointless to create a doctrine such as "eternal security" when the Word is so clear about the end result of a soul that lives in continual sin. At the same time, we understand that the grace of God exists.
My understanding of this "grace" is very different than some. It is indeed possible to insult the "Spirit of grace" (Hebrews 10:26-30) by deliberately sinning. While it is easy to claim that such an individual was "never truly born again," I believe and have known individuals who have walked sincerely with God only to turn back to this world because of persecution, the cares of this world, the deceitfulness of riches, and the pleasures of sin.
What is my position in such a doctrinal dispute? NEITHER. I don't believe that an individual will easily lose his salvation. The grace of God draws such an individual back to repentance. If a person has truly met and fellowshipped with the LORD, this is the greatest and most valuable possession in life. But I do believe that an individual can run ahead and depart the faith. I have known individuals who have fallen into temptation and continually lived in such sin. As a believer, I am still tempted daily. These are not simply sins of commission, but sins of ommission.
While some could say that this is an embrace of either position, it is really an embrace of neither. I worry about those who feel that the grace of God is so limited as to keep a person from sinning. But I also worry about an individual who insults the Spirit of grace by making excuses for sin.
:-(
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Christopher
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| | 2007/6/5 11:00 | Profile | roaringlamb
Member
Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California
| | Re: | | Brother,
Your words were very kind.
Quote:
He said it is pointless to create a doctrine such as "eternal security" when the Word is so clear about the end result of a soul that lives in continual sin.
I would agree with this to a point. What I mean is that if we are honest with ourselves and God, we will see that it is impossible to live one day without sin. Every stray thought not revolving around Christ is an apostate thought and therefore sin, every idle moment that could be better spent is sin. Now we cannot rename these sins to claim we are sinless, because there was and will be unitl glory one Sinless One. Yet Christ does not quench the wick even if there is much smoke and little light or heat.
The true child of God will sin :-o, BUT, there will be conviction of sin. I like to think of a pig and a cat. A pig has no problem laying in the mud and filth, but a cat is picky even about a splash of water on its coat. The pig will be a pig until it is changed into something else. It is a simple illustration and I hope it serves the purpose- the unsaved could care nothing about the offense they have caused to God or their fellow man. The sanctification process is ongoing, and at times down right painful as the fire rises to purify even the things we thought were glorifying to God. But He does not cast us off.
How is it that the laws we could not keep prior to knowing Christ, suddenly in our human strength we are now able to perfectly obey? There is one Mediator, one Justifier, and that is Christ.
But again, just so none accuse me of being antinomian, a true child of God will battle against the sin remaining in them, and this would be one suggestion that there is Another living within now.
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patrick heaviside
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| | 2007/6/5 12:05 | Profile |
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