| Poster | Thread | PaulWest
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Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas
| | Re: | | Hi, sister. I'm a little surprised by your response!
Quote:
Paul, I don’t believe the devil ever runs after God
Diane, I didn't mean that Satan runs after God in [i]repentance.[/i] And I don't think I said Satan runs [i]after[/i] God, either. But could he run [i]to[/i] God? Ah, this is something completely different! Something like this would denote command and execution.
In Mark 5, the demon-possessed man saw Jesus from afar off and he ran and worshipped Him and he cried in a loud voice: "What have [b]I[/b] to do with Thee, Jesus..." For Jesus said unto [b]him[/b]: "Come out of the man thou unclean spirit." Jesus asked [b]him[/b], saying: "What is [b]thy[/b] name?" And [b]he[/b] answered Him saying "[b]My[/b] name is Legion, for we are many."
To be in line with your stance, the demons were powerless to stop the man from initially running to Christ. You say the man came to seek deliverance, but the first question he asks Jesus is, "What have I to do with Thee, Jesus Thou Son of God!" This is clearly a demonic utterance, and one which falls neatly in line with other cases of demonic manifestations in scripture. When the man fell and worshipped Jesus, Jesus began speaking to the demons and not the man. I think to follow your line of reasoning, you really have to force the text, dear sister! I don't know of any demon-possessed man coming to worship God by his own volition. I do see in scripture (and have seen in reality), however, the demon-possessed trying to get away from God and having to be restrained. If God decides to command them, "Come!", the devils must obey - and will even [i]run[/i] to fall at His feet in terror. Jesus always spoke directly to the spirits, and, in the case of the Gadarene, it was only after the spirits had been exorcised that the man was in his "right mind." People aren't in their right mind when they're demon-possessed. The last thing they want is to come to Jesus; the devil won't allow it. They'll cuss, mock, blaspheme, roll around on the ground like a serpent - they'll do anything but run directly to Jesus and fall at His feet. The possessing force must do this, and I venture to say, when they are commanded by a Greater Authority. So, will Satan run to God? Yes - and not only that! He worships and trembles and cofesses Jesus is Lord.
Dear sister, unclean spirits had a wonderful habit of being brought before Jesus and then falling down to worship Him. Do you think Jesus went chasing after them to get them to fall down before Him? Do you think the human captives willfully [i]dragged[/i] their strong-man captors before the Lord? Nay, sister. The text says that the unclean spirits saw Jesus (not their human hosts), and the unclean spirits fell down and cried, "Thou art the Son of God!" (Mk. 3:11)
Here is a story of a boy having [i]one[/i] unclean spirit, and he had to be "brought" to Jesus (Luke 9:42). "As he was yet a coming, the devil threw him down." Notice, the text implicates he was on his way to Jesus when he was thrown down. How can [i]one[/i] spirit throw a boy down before he gets to Jesus (a boy being dragged or carried) and yet you say a wild, unchained man with a [i]legion[/i] of unclean spirits just "runs" on his own?
Matthew 9:32 speaks of another man with a devil that had to be "brought". The one in Matthew 12:22 had to be "brought" as well. The Gadarene is the only place, I believe, where a person possessed with a [b]legion[/b] of devils actually runs to Jesus and immediately worships. And Jesus speaks to the devils the whole time, never once asking the host a question.
Quote:
there is no reason to assume that the “god” of the world is the devil
Honestly, when I first saw this, I blinked and had to read it again. I don't know if you're just being nit-picky here, or if you really believe the text doesn't refer to Satan. Knowing you, it's most certainly the latter, and I thank you for presenting this verse in a way I've never looked at before. I've always just automatically assumed it meant the wicked power driving the spirit of the world. Now you'll have me thinking, praying, musing, plowing through scripture. Thank you!
Yes, Diane, you're absolutely right about the congruency, sister! What leads me to believe II Cor. 4:4 is [i]not[/i] Jehovah is not only that the "g" is lowercase. I know that Satan has power to bind and afflict and I know that the whole world is under his sway. I'm not sure, but I believe when the Bible mentions "gods" (with a deliberate lower case "g") it usually refers to false gods. Scripture certainly speaks of Satan being the "ruler" - the [i]prince[/i] of this world - so why not the "god" of this world too? He is the prince of darkness. If God is the Supreme Ruler (which he is), how can Paul speak of other rulers? If there is one God, can there be other false gods? Sure! The world is at enmity with God, and God with the world. It therefore makes good sense to me that Satan is the very false "god" of our wicked world. Otherwise, what does he do? He's out of a job! Does Jehovah God do the actual blinding, the killing, the tempting, the deceiving? Is it Jehovah God who actually descends upon man to cloud his vision with darkness? God is light and in him is no darkness at all (1 John 1:5). God cannot be tempted, neither tempteth He any man (James 1). Does God ever subcontract, so to speak, the dealings and dishings of "Divine Judgment" on earth? I think so. The Puritans used to refer to Satan as "God's whip". If Satan is indeed the "god" of this world, I'm inclined to propose that Satan's [i]positional[/i] false deity is one divinely authorized by God to accomplish His will on earth and exact mortal retribution for those who violate His own precepts.
Bless you my sister!
Brother Paul
p.s. I'm sorry for the diversion. I won't expand anymore on these thoughts. The original premise of this thread is so beautiful and pure.
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Paul Frederick West
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|  2007/4/16 17:55 | Profile |
| | Re: when God ran! | | Quote:
searchin wrote:
my son(8 years old)was recently reading to me, and my daughter(12),and we were going through the story of the prodigal son. when he read the passage..."the father ran to meet him." he said, "Dad, the sunday school teacher said that was the only time in the Bible where God ran."
Wow! what a thought...Paul talked about running a race to obtain the prize. God does not run such a race becuse he, himself, is the prize
Politicians run a race to be elected. God does not run such a race. He does not need or seek the approval of man. he is the King of Kings and Lord Of Lords. The only true Potentate. (1-Timothy 6:15)
God certainly has never ran from the battle...he has and will never retreat from the enemy. The Lord is strong and mighty in battle.
What made God run? A son returning to the Father's house. A humble heart of repentance.
there is great joy in heaven when one of his lost sheep returns home and repents.
God Bless
Thank you, that is beautiful!
I hope this isn't a bit of a let down after the other but there's the (true) story of a little boy who was asked why the prodigal son wept when his father met him. "Because he fell on his neck" the child said!
Jeannette |
| | 2007/4/16 18:05 | |
| | Re: | | Quote:
roadsign wrote:
Quote:
"the father ran to meet him."
Today we think nothing of a father running to greet his returning son. But in Jesus' day elderly Jewish men were considered much too dignified to run. Essentially Jesus was pointing out that God is even willing to ditch his dignity in order to run to meet us.
The impact of Jesus' statement is best grasped if we consider it's effect on the hearers of his day.
Diane
Thanks Diane, what a lovely thought. And He ditched much more than His dignity, in Jesus, didn't He! (Phil 2)
Jeannette |
| | 2007/4/16 18:08 | | roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777
| | Re: big or little "g" | | My, my Paul - Have we ever created some bunny trails on this thread! One trail leads to another and into the woods we go
. And now
. to find our way out
.
I wont dispute your points about demons.
About the god vs God point: The small g in god was rendered the by KJV translators, and it is now assumed. In Greek, there is no capitalized theos to distinguish from uncapitolized theos. You have to use context to know which to use: God or god. (Thats my non-expert understanding). I lean towards the capitol G rendering because it keeps God in true perspective: the one who dispenses judgment for sin which especially includes blocking spiritual sensitivity towards him. Remember, God banished man from the Garden, not Satan. (Learning how Satan has influence over man would make a good Bible study)
In the Bible, gods (small g) were objects of worship. They were made of wood, or stone, or something else, but they had no power. They couldnt save anyone or blind anyone.
Are we back on the right trail now?
Diane
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Diane
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| | 2007/4/16 20:15 | Profile | PaulWest
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| | Re: | | Good points, sister. And yes, we are back on the thread!
You really roused my curiosity with II Cor. 4:4, though. I even looked to see what Matthew Henry had to say about it and seems he too links it with Satan. I remember when someone posted a 30 second rapture video awhile back...and you interpreted that those left behind in the church were the ones that were saved! It was a most interesting twist that I've never even thought of or dreamed of entertaining! You seem to have that most challenging quality, and your posts are always so strong and good and bathed in godly charity.
Thank you for helping me grow, Diane.
Brother Paul
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Paul Frederick West
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| | 2007/4/16 20:28 | Profile | roadsign
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| | Re: | |
You express your thoughts sweetly, Paul. Thank you.
Quote:
I don't know of any demon-possessed man coming to worship God by his own volition.
I know of some who went for deliverance and healing. Is that not possiby also seeking God?
Diane
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Diane
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| | 2007/4/16 20:32 | Profile | PaulWest
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| | Re: | | Quote:
I know of some who went for deliverance and healing.
Do you say this based on examples from scripture or from personal observations at church meetings?
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Paul Frederick West
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| | 2007/4/16 20:36 | Profile | HopeinChrist
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Posts: 258
| | Re: | | Quote:
I remember when someone posted a 30 second rapture video awhile back...and you interpreted that those left behind in the church were the ones that were saved!
Can someone post a link to this thread? I tried to search it with no luck.
Thanks |
| | 2007/4/16 20:40 | Profile | roadsign
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| | Re: | | Quote:
Roadsign: I know of some who went for deliverance and healing.
PaulWest: Do you say this based on examples from scripture or from personal observations at church meetings?
I'm thinking of deliverance ministries - ex: John Sanford's work at Elijah House.
Jesus came to set the captives free.... Free from what?
Who other than Christ can give hope for those in bondage to demon-possession?
Diane
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Diane
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| | 2007/4/16 20:52 | Profile | PaulWest
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| | Re: | | double-post
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Paul Frederick West
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| | 2007/4/16 20:55 | Profile |
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