| Poster | Thread | philologos
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Reading, UK
| | Re: | | On the theme of 'only free to choose our poison' what would we say of Cornelius?
[color=0000ff]There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band, A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway. (Acts 10:1-2 KJVS)[/color]
This is the man who Peter says heard an angel say...[color=0000ff]...Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter; Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.(Acts 11:13-14 KJVS)[/color]
Was Cornelius behaviour prior to his 'being saved' just a choosing of 'poisons'? The scripture seems to say something quite different...[color=0000ff]Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. (Acts 10:34-35 KJVS)[/color]
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Ron Bailey
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|  2006/10/26 7:56 | Profile | roadsign
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| | Re: | | Quote:
Was Cornelius behaviour prior to his 'being saved' just a choosing of 'poisons'?
This reminds me of what Jesus said:
"If you then, though you are evil,
know how to give good gifts to your children... " Lk. 11:13
Christ seems to acknowledge that good can be accomplished in the flesh. Frankly, I rejoice in that, because where would I be without the goodness of mankind - doctors, parents, teachers, food inspectors....
Surely there is a remnant of God-consciousness in man.
What about Nathaniel: "in whom there is nothing false." John 1:47
... yet... what about the "incurable wound"...
Diane
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Diane
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| | 2006/10/26 8:32 | Profile | RobertW
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| | Re: | | Ron's:
Quote:
The truth that we must face is that one of these 12 was Judas of whom the scripture says...For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take. (Acts 1:20 KJVS)
I don't know if this is the same direction here, but I was interested to read Adam Clarke's take on the death of Judas and that he actually holds out hope for his souls salvation in that he 'repented' of what he did. He has a pretty extensive argument for a commentary. I generally value his opinion highly because of his strict attention to pleasing God. In other words, if Adam Clarke holds out hope, maybe we ought to re-examine the subject. But that's another thread. ;-)
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Robert Wurtz II
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| | 2006/10/26 8:34 | Profile | roadsign
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| | Re: the incurable wound | | Quote:
Total depravity is Scriptural.
The heart is deceitful above all things
and beyond cure. Jer. 17:9
"every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood." Gen. 8:21
"The hearts of men are full of evil
and there is madness in their hearts while they live." Ecc. 9:3
Joshua to self-deluded Israel:
"'You are not able to serve the Lord.'
But the people said to Joshua,
'No! We WILL serve the Lord and obey him'
Then Joshua said,
'You are witnesses against yourselves
that you have chosen to serve the Lord." Joshua 24:19 -24.
Isaiah:
Your whole head is injured,
your whole heart is afflicted.
From the soul of your foot to the top of your head,
there is no soundness -
only wounds and welts and open sores,
not cleansed or bandaged or soothed with oil. Is. 1:5,6
Jeremiah:
"Your wound is incurable,
your injury beyond healing.
There is no one to plead your cause,
no remedy for your sore, no healing for you." Jer. 30:12
Paul about humanity:
"There is no one righteous,
not even one.
All have turned away... (from Ps. 14)
There is no one who does good, not even one!" Romans 3:10
Paul - About the flesh:
I know I am rotten through and through
so far as my old sinful nature is concerned.
No matter which way I turn,
I cannot make myself do right." Rom. 7:18 NLB
Denial in the hearts of Israels spiritual leaders:
They dress the wound of my people
as though it were not serious. Jer. 6:15
"... [they are] not able to cure you,
not able to heal your sores." Hosea 5:13
Is there no balm in Gilead?
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Diane
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| | 2006/10/26 8:38 | Profile | RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
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St. Joseph, Missouri
| | Re: | | Roadsign's:
Quote:
... yet... what about the "incurable wound"...
I think this question is a question of 'willing'. When the Sin nature is present the spirit of disobedience 'wills' in them to will and do evil (just reverse engineering another passage here). This does not mean they could not and do not at times choose good. The answer, I think, lies in the fact that as Christians we [i]can[/i] commit sins. Salvation does not remove my ability to sin it takes aware the [i]desire[/i] to sin. Some would argue that all deeds of a sinner are sinful even if they are righteous acts because they were motivated by selfishness or some other sinful motivation and not the glory of God or love for God, etc. But I am not sure this is not philosophy more than bible. I read some of the older writers speak of these types of things but I see no real parallel in scripture. They are building the altitude of the Moral High Ground (as it were) and requiring a level of perfection in our deeds that I am not sure I see biblically. Yet the framework in which this philosophy exists soteriologically is one of justification and assurance. It lends itself to the need for the 'free gift' of salvation. No one can measure up- so we must accept the gift, etc. The problem I see is that these concepts jump from the Calvinist camp to the Arminian camp and pretty soon folk are not able to live up to the standard and have no assurance of salvation. Untangling these things theologically we go a long ways to answer why folk (including myself) have such horribly disfunctional doctrinal conclusions at times. I think it happens when we have a cross pollenization of the two camps.
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Robert Wurtz II
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| | 2006/10/26 8:48 | Profile | philologos
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Reading, UK
| | Re: | | Quote:
The problem I see is that these concepts jump from the Calvinist camp to the Arminian camp and pretty soon folk are not able to live up to the standard and have no assurance of salvation.
a valuable observation, I think.
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Ron Bailey
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| | 2006/10/26 9:28 | Profile | philologos
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Reading, UK
| | Re: | | Quote:
Total depravity is Scriptural.
Well, I am usually on the other side of this argument in these forums but the question for me is not whether or not there is an incurable wound; I believe the Bible teaches that. The question, rather, is what does that wound do to us and are we not able to obey what God says to us? Part of the reason for asking these questions is that I feel the case was very much overstated in John Piper's podcast. It might be interesting to see how John MacArthur expresses his views on this topic?
It is easy enough to keep quoting our proof texts but what we need to do is to examine each others 'proof texts' and then try to get a balance.
Behind this understanding is the idea that God's regenerative act is a surprise initiative which effects regeneration in the heart of a man or woman without consultation or consent. From this monergism everything else springs... faith, repentance, choice. I remain unconvinced. My understanding is that God indeed must take the initiative and I preach it constantly, but to take the initiative and to complete the whole work while I remain asleep...?
Quote:
"every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood." Gen. 8:21
This is certainly a strong statement but what does [color=0000ff]Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.(Gen 6:9 KJVS)[/color]...imply? Coming as it does from the exact same era?
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Ron Bailey
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| | 2006/10/26 9:41 | Profile | JaySaved
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| | Re: | | Philologos,
It seems that our disagreement is on when a person becomes condemned/judged.
You are saying that a person is not condemned/judged until they refuse to believe. You say that a person is not under condemnation until they actively reject the gospel. Does this mean that anyone who does not hear the gospel will not be judged and condemned to hell? |
| | 2006/10/26 9:45 | Profile | JaySaved
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Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1132
Missouri
| | Re: | | Quote:
Roadsign said: "every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood." Gen. 8:21
Philologos said: "This is certainly a strong statement but what does Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.(Gen 6:9 KJVS)...imply? Coming as it does from the exact same era?"
You forget one very important verse that comes right before the verse you quoted:
Genesis 6:8, "But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD."
You see all of scripture must be true. Therefore it is true that every inclination of man's heart is evil from childhood. It is true that as Genesis 6:5 says, "The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time." But it is also true that Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. It is true that Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and he walked with God because of this grace. |
| | 2006/10/26 9:55 | Profile | roadsign
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Posts: 3777
| | Re: | | Im going to squeeze in for a moment with a comment for Bartle who said:
Quote:
the whole "Calvinist vs. Arminianist" thread both futile and depressing.
Bartle, Ill bet that there would never have been these ists or isms if there hadnt been a bent to stray in the first place. No doubt a lot of efforts to resolve this are merely futile attempts to present my side, and straighten out the kink in the other guy. But what about my own kink?
I grew up in a Calvinist environment, but at that time wasnt aware of any ist or isms. I did, however, know that joy and trust in the Lords salvation was lacking, but didnt know why. Now I realize that we were living with a fractured God, and a fractured theology. We were robbed of the Good News. I know the sad outcome of that - first hand.
Then later in life I spent 15+ years in the other camp. It was refreshing for a long time. But then the fractured presentation of God paid its toll, especially during times of testings. We were living a life of trust in self. Really, we were robbed of the Good News, because we replaced it with something "manageable".
So here I am, trying to stand back and look at the whole mess - just trying to put God back together again without adopting any ism.
For me it all channels to one center: Simply trust in my beloved Lord, surrender to an awesome, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, loving, sovereign God and follow him. Trying to understand the way of the Spirit with man is risky. It is like trying to put wind into a box.
To the extent that I diminish God and trust in myself or man, I am sure to slip into an ism of some kind.
(Edit: not to discredit the fact that there are treasures on both sides, and also some bones to spit out.)
And now... over and out... to the wise insights of our dear fellow saints.
Diane
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Diane
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| | 2006/10/26 10:15 | Profile |
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