| Poster | Thread |
| | Re: A Critical Spirit | | Good afternoon everyone.
I would like to thank the brethren and sisters who have responded since I went offline last evening. It is true I was hurt by Ormly's last comments, particularly as I find that when challenged by the men, he finally disclosed the yardstick for which he purported to have been searching in my posts. [i]If[/i] he read my posts [i]thoroughly[/i], he responded on the rebound to every one, and I feel he has not acknowledged any of our points of agreement, constantly changing the subject slightly, rather than focusing on whether I had answered his original - challenge. It cannot be called a question.
When I came online a while ago, Compton's long post was the last one. I have spent the time since then summing up my response at that stage.
Diane, I'm grateful to you again for 'hearing' clearly, a point on which I also comment - namely Ormly's desire to bale out before the end of the party.
While I [i]could[/i] revamp the responses I've prepared in the light of this morning's posts, I'm not going to. I have already thought very carefully, and edited, and will present the following in good faith to be received by you all, with the same honour which Ormly believes he has been giving me already. |
|  2006/8/27 9:49 | |
| | Re: A Critical Spirit | | Ormly,
I find I have answered this question you asked on p5, Quote:
Oh! Your soul must really be in tune with Him that you discern His voice without questioning. Is that so?
in my second last response on p11.
I know you are asking to drop the subject, though I don't understand why (apart from your 'weariness', which seems a reasonable state for a minister to experience), if you want me to believe that your care for my soul extends beyond your assumptions (about me).
I'm not surprised you're weary, btw, because I realise I'm giving you a hard time. But I know I'm doing it because you need to be bothered-with, as much as you thought I needed to be bothered-with when you first challenged me.
You are amongst friends here. Real friends in the Lord, and friends of Jesus. As mamaluk expressed, we are all indebted to each other for the prayer which each other offers, for the insights and edifications which we have received from each other, and for the enormous time others commit to SI, that we may enjoy fellowship in Him.
One of the ways that false shepherds falsely set themselves over their flocks, is by implying (as Compton described) that they know things about [i]God[/i] which you, the ordinary flock-member, do not have access to - [i]nor ever will[/i]. There are many other psychological ploys which they engage and it is a sore moment when one begins to understand one has become like them through one's intial naive acceptance of their pronouncements.
Brother, the damage spiritual abuse does, (which many of us have been through), is something the Lord can lead us out of, showing us His true Shepherd heart, and His skill as the Great Physician, healing our souls with His utmost compassion and not requiring 'repentance' as a condition. I'm sure you know this in measure, and I trust you will not let go of the hope that He can make any who need it, even more whole. I know you know Jesus can heal because you said so earlier in the thread.
Also, please know that staying the course in this thread has caused me to grow. I hope you have found the same, and in time to come you will risk sharing more of your pain with us, in a more direct way. I have been immeasurably [i]changed[/i] by the prayers of the saints here (to which I continually testify), and I know you are being taken to heart as you share yourself here.
If I have made one assumption in this thread (about you) it is that you are for real, and that the cynicism which adorns some of your posts is a disposable (unwanted) attribute, which accidentally interferes with the portrayal the true heart of your inner man.
However, you need not take up the challenges I lay out next.
I state in advance, I have not written anything lightly and am trusting the Lord to continue to minister to [i]all[/i] of us in this thread. Therefore, I am trusting you are as keen to grow as I know others are, and you will not despise what God brings to you through hanging around with saints at SI. |
| | 2006/8/27 10:04 | |
| | Re: A Critical Spirit | | crsschk said
Quote:
This is troubling, something of confusing the Persons of the trinity here.
Mike,
I only made the attempt, because of Ormly's statement
Quote:
Not to be nit-picky but we are to listen to the voice of the Spirit.....not the shepherd of our souls. Big difference since most of us have yet to purify them that we can make those distinctions. (1 Peter 1.22)
after I had picked up the phrase 'not sparing the flock' from his quote of the whole verse (Acts 20:29) on p4, (where you also had posted earlier).
I don't know if you've been following the thread the whole week, but I determined to hang in with the discussion, for several reasons. (Ormly, you need to sit tight here, and wish you could hear my tone of voice and trust me it is explanatory, not declamatory.)
First, I have noticed from his comments in previous threads that Ormly knows about worship. Not many people can speak about worship as he does, and (without presenting this the [i]only[/i] 'yardstick' (;-)) for determining whether a person 'knows the Lord' or not), immediately he gained my respect for that. That's one reason I've been asking him questions (although he hasn't been answering them at all), because as I've said before, I [i]am[/i] open to correction.
Secondly, as I considered the challenge he had thrown out above, in response to my post at the end of p4 (I'd said),
Quote:
'not sparing the flock'
This is far more true than Christians would care to believe.
The most useful thing any Christian can do for him or herself, is practise knowing the Voice of THE Shepherd of their souls, and following hard after, regardless of what anyone they know, is doing.... Save yourselves from this untoward (God) generation, said Peter.
I was reminded (being in the middle of reading Acts), I had noticed that both Paul and Peter clearly distinguished between 'the Lord said' and 'the Spirit said'.... so, I thought I might learn something by giving the matter more consideration. (You need to do a word search in Acts to see this clearly.)
But having pointed out in one of my initial responses to Ormly's query,
Quote:
I would contend that those two voices are different ways of discerning communication from the same One God, and there is no competition between them.
and on p7 I had said
Quote:
I still have no idea why you disagreed with what I said about 'THE Shepherd' of our souls, as this is the perfect antidote to Paul's concerns, and, it is in keeping with more of Jesus own words (backing up my defence which you found "a little too New Age-ee" - for yourself ....)
(KJV) John 15:26
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
So now we have three of the 'voices' of God in agreement. Does this also cause you a problem?
I, too, had noted the concern you expressed at the top of your reply to me on p12.
Thirdly, because of Ormly's difficulty in either giving a straight answer to a straight question, or asking a straight question in the first place, I had discerned (many weeks ago) what he has revealed in this thread in his own words,
Quote:
I have come through too much for that.
Is this a little prideful? Not my call.
Fourthly, Ormly made this statement last Sunday.
Quote:
I'm off to teach my ssmall flock
As the week went on, and nothing I said seemed to satisfy his invisible yardstick (which he had not mentioned specifically until yesterday), I began to have echoing in my head the words of a Christian friend who was bullied for an hour by two of her teenage daughter's teachers on a parents' evening, (because her daughter was an undiagnosed dyslexic). She had said 'If they were prepared to bully me (an adult), what have they been doing to children?' I began to be concerned for Ormly's 'flock', if his indirectness (with me) is to be taken as a benchmark of his dealings with the sheep.... partly, because I've had my head bent by that sort of treatment, too. Which is another reason I am not lying down to it here.
Now, I see that Ormly has tried probably five times to extricate himself from this thread [b]without offering me the truth which he feared I didn't really know[/b], and it is only after some of you brethren posted, that he has finally declared the 'yardstick' for which he is supposed to have been searching in my replies, saying
Quote:
If you are hungry after righteousness you will find it.
Of course you will. :-D Our Father is not as mean as many of His servants would inadvertently portray. |
| | 2006/8/27 10:09 | |
| | Re: A Critical Spirit | | Brother Ormly,
I realise it's Sunday, and you are busy, but when you get back here, I refer you to p11 near the top of my second post
Quote:
The Shepherd (as in Psalm 23) leads us the right way. His voice is ahead of us calling us on. The way He leads us is not necessarily easy, but, He is with us and [b]we find ourselves on the way of Holiness, the paths of righteousness; [u]having entered by Himself, the Door[/u][/b], we find the green pastures promised in John 10 also, and the freedom to go out and come in, in safety, despite the overbearing pressures of the valley of the shadow of death - where again, it is the Shepherd's rod and staff which discipline and comfort simultaneously.
Surely, the desire to know His will, explaining the search for it and finally doing it, to which I alluded at the [i]beginning[/i] of my first answers to your challenge, unmistakably covers [u]hungering after righteousness[/u] - [b]and finding it[/b]. And yesterday, I said much more to elaborate on my experience.
Therefore, of course I agree that this is a basic position for both unbeliever and believer to adopt, [b]but I would never have picked this answer out of your original contention that the voice of the Spirit supersedes the voice of the Shepherd, and I remain concerned that you would hold following the voice of the Shepherd is not [i]narrow[/i] enough for you to embrace[/b].
If you have explained this, please just quote for me from earlier in the thread, because I can't find it.
If not, [u]this time[/u], [u]please[/u] explain your perspective, and help me understand why it so colours your interepretation of John 10, instead of trying to wriggle out of [i][b]my[/i][/b] challenge with a supposed-to-be disarming smile and 'virtual' silence.
I have borne with your proddings faithfully. Now, I'm prodding. Please do me the honour of a proper response, and don't worry about its length. I will read it. |
| | 2006/8/27 10:19 | | crsschk
Member
Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA
| | Re: One Voice | | Hi Dorcas,
For starters I think we both are too long-winded for our own good at times, we end up just confusing matters...
Kind of liked this, regarding our brother; Quote:
If I have made one assumption in this thread (about you) it is that you are for real, and that the cynicism which adorns some of your posts is a disposable (unwanted) attribute, which accidentally interferes with the portrayal the true heart of your inner man.
That may well be the case and seems so. Still, the digs and pokes at others here is never helpful nor appreciated by anyone, nor necessary. It is revealing of something else going on inside us when they do come forth even if 'accidentally' and to draw attention to it often is met with disregard. We just don't like to be held accountable, it rubs our still fallen nature the wrong way, I am not yet convinced I have become all that less susceptible to that reaction frankly, but it is still needed. A good treatment on all this can be found here; [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=8225&forum=23&post_id=&refresh=Go] A.W. Tozer ~ On Receiving Admonition[/url]
To the concerns about 'which voice' ... I would be implying that the distinction being made is not really there if I understand the meaning behind;
Joh 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
Joh 15:27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.
Joh 16:4 But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you.
Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Joh 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: [b]for he shall not speak of himself[/b]; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
Joh 16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
Joh 16:15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
Joh 17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me;
Joh 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee.
Joh 17:26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and [b][u]I[/u][/b] in them.
It's the same voice. Trying to make a distinction is not any different than the attempts at 'explaining' the trinity. Quite happy to allow it to be the vast mystery that it in fact is, something these puny minds cannot grasp nor were they ever designed to be able to do so, the whole point being that if we could truly explain God we no longer have Him as God but a refraction of our own little schemes and 'knowledge'. That mere men have attempted to shrink these things all down to their level of understanding and codify it into constructs and systematic theology, don't get me wrong here, not all of it nor unuseful, but by way of explanation that which is unexplainable or at best conjecture.
In other words, spiritually speaking, I "get it" but I don't have the foggiest idea why I do...
_________________
Mike Balog
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| | 2006/8/27 12:29 | Profile | Kolombian
Member
Joined: 2006/1/14
Posts: 50
Colombia
| | Re: Pretty agree with Mattie | | Mattie, your words are so truly and I really believe that we all as christians, sons of God, may have to pass trough the wilderness in our life in pursue to become as God the Father want us to be. Doing all things according to His will. In his time. In His way.
Visit this web page, and specialy read this article, called: Are we to judge?...
http://www.awildernessvoice.com/judge.html
Blessings
Karen
_________________
Karen
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| | 2006/8/27 13:31 | Profile |
| | Re: | | Quote:
If not, this time, please explain your perspective, and help me understand why it so colours your interepretation of John 10, instead of trying to wriggle out of my challenge with a supposed-to-be disarming smile and 'virtual' silence.
I have borne with your proddings faithfully. Now, I'm prodding. Please do me the honour of a proper response, and don't worry about its length. I will read it.
I apologise for my feeble attempts to explain what I see. I regret you having to "borne" anything of/from me.
I guess I don't know or just don't have enough words in my vocabulary to bridge the transliteration gap. This is not just for you I say this, but others as well who I sense don't know to reply to much of what I have posted. I had hopes and there are a few for which I am encouraged and to that I say thanks be to the Lord Jesus, I'm not alone after all..
Respectfully,
Orm |
| | 2006/8/27 17:01 | |
| | Re: | | After sleeping and praying on this, I offer it as my last feeble attempt that it might be satisfactory, at least to some, pointing up the need for the living out the first part of the great commandment. If acheived, the second part will take care of itself. I hope all will consider these words [Jesse, etal] regardless of being posted in this thread.
The call of God is a call to participate in the nature of God
. nothing else. Being led by His Spirit is another issue and we must learn to know that leading.
Many are called, few learn and few are chosen.
Since we know that knowledge puffs up, the academic approach [man's reasoning], if pursued first, will only greatly serve the agent of deceit.
Those who earnestly seek God will do so from an intimate seeking disposition. This disposition can only be born in our spirit by His Spirit, by the revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ
. Just other reason why Paul says to the born again, Quench not the Spirit because, Jesus said, He will show you all things that are of me. If obedient, we are a new creation.
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| | 2006/8/28 5:26 | |
| | Re: A Critical Spirit | |
Brother Ormly,
I thank you for honing down what was in your heart about being led by the Spirit, rather than the Shepherd.
Of what you said, the thing I continue to disagree, is that one has to be born again before one can hear what God (the Spirit) is saying. Yes, the ability to [u]walk in newness of life[/u] is a consequence of being born again, but, the ability to hear the voice of the Shepherd, is clearly stated by Jesus in John 10:9 "[i]I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, [u]he [b]will[/b] be saved[/u], and will go in and out and find pasture[/i].
From these words, it is clear that to get to the point of entry to the sheepfold, the Door, the sheep had to be able to hear voices, and choose which to follow.
John 10
(v 7) "Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.
8 "All who [ever] came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them.
This, and the outright denial of scripture which you offered to counter my original exhortation, matters a huge amount. This is not an academic distinction, either, for those who believe that every word in scripture has a place of edification for the seeker and the saint.
Although you have answered the part of my question which you wished to speak about, namely the 'voice of the Spirit', you still have not given any good explanation for why you would effectively remove a significant tract of John 10 (if you would), or given a fuller explanation for effectively drawing away from those verses, that world-wide audience reading this discussion.
Now, I realise you may have written hastily, and had no such intention as I've just suggested, but, I do feel, for the sake of the integrity of this discussion, that you need to give an explanation or choose different words to bring out a greater understanding of your difficulty with 'the voice of THE Shepherd of their souls'.
You said:
Quote:
we are to listen to the voice of the Spirit.....[b]not the shepherd of our souls[/b].
Please expound?
crsschk,
You have pressed me for less - namely for scripture to support what you suspected might be an unscriptural statement.
I hope you will understand why I am most unwilling to let Ormly make a statement which [b]denies a tract of scripture outright[/b], without putting up some resistance to his thesis. |
| | 2006/8/29 8:48 | |
| | Re: | | Here is the point of my contention:
you wrote":
Quote:
Of what you said, the thing I continue to disagree, is that one has to be born again before one can hear what God (the Spirit) is saying. Yes, the ability to walk in newness of life is a consequence of being born again, but, the ability to hear the voice of the Shepherd, is clearly stated by Jesus in John 10:9 "I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.
Though the Lord Jesus is the way truth and the life, the doorway of Him, mentioned by Him, is NOT for initial "Blood purchased" redemption/salvation, as the verse might seem to some to imply. It is for the born again to learn. Abiding salvation for the born again is found only in the Kingdom of God. That's what Paul meant when he said to Christians, "work out your salvation with fear and trembling.
John 10:9-10 (KJV)
I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. [10] [b]The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly[/b].
Who is "they" mentioned in the above verse except those whose lives He has already entered.
What is a thief except one who steals what has been given/received? Hearing the voice of Lord is a learning process. Only the born again can learn it....and will, when they seek Him with all their might.
Perhaps reading the rest of the chapter would be a profitable thing to do..
You might want to ask yourself the question, "what is deception" because there are a lot of "Christians" in that condition.
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| | 2006/8/29 9:26 | |
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