In this sermon, the preacher discusses the concept of discipleship based on the scripture in Luke 14. He emphasizes the importance of following God's intent rather than relying on personal feelings. The preacher shares a personal story about a friend who left for the mission field, leaving him and his fiancee behind. He reflects on the challenges they faced and the decision to join their friend in Africa, trusting in God's plan. The sermon highlights the need for obedience and commitment in discipleship.

We had some valuable questions yesterday regarding certain aspects of the first two grades, little children, young men, which we went through yesterday, the basis of our what we call human life, some repetition on the two-fold operations of Christ in redemption, in his precious blood and in his crucified risen body, and other matters such as when we are his, where does sin fit in, what sin is, and probably about God's consciousness and death to self, death to sin, a few of those were raised, I'll take them up, but I won't take them up today I think, I have a note of them, and any others which arise also which could be helpful, spirits, soul and body and so on. But I think we ought to move on today to where we really are in this conference of what, of fellowship of what we should call third levels, we're in the third level, little children, young men, fathers, and refresh ourselves and re-examine together what kind of persons we are when we are operating in the third level. So we'll go on with that today, as far as we can, if necessary we'll go on tomorrow, and we'll certainly have time for discussion and consideration because that's, you understand of course where we are now when we talk about the third level, we mean that there are these three levels presented to us in the scriptures, in some ways we don't like to use the word level because it gives the idea that we have to rise to them, of course they've already been risen to by Jesus Christ, and they're the recognition in us of what he is in us in large reality I suppose you could say like that. We've commonly caught, most similarly spoken about on the 1 John 2 statement, right unto little children, young men and fathers, because that's very plain, and we all know in a simple way the point of a little child is totally independent outside himself, so a little child in Christ is dependent on the father and the son outside himself. A young man has been reversed and he has his own thoughts inside him, he doesn't rely on his parents as a little infant does, his thoughts have to come from inside, and be inside now, so the Bible teaches how the young man in spirit has the father, keeps his inner strength, has overcome the wicked one, is strong, and has an inner relationship, that word that God has given to him is otherwise unending, so it's living from an inside reality, which of course we speak of in terms like replacement or Christ in us, as us and so on. And we ran over yesterday how we moved to the place where that has become the second reality to us. We then move on where we are now, and have to reconsider as a consequence of where we are, what that implies, in the fatherhood level. I write unto you fathers, it's a very remarkable change in emphasis, in statement, in that phrase in 1 John. He uses the same phrase twice over of how he describes the fatherhood relationship, and he says I write unto you fathers because ye know him that did from the beginning. Very striking. I write unto you fathers because ye know him from the beginning. Remembering of course that knowing as we said all along is an inner being, knowing isn't this, it's your knower, I know that, therefore I am that. You are what you know, what you inwardly know you are, and that's the knowing we're talking about of course, it's knower, I know I'm that. And it says ye know him from the beginning, he's not given a name, because he's gone beyond a name. See father wasn't his first name, what was his first name, well he's called God I suppose. He's not even given a name because the name came into being when the Trinity was there. Now there's a relationship operating. And the father now is in his eternal love relationship and the spirit is reproducing a love relationship in the creation and above all in the human family. So he's got a name. But we move back to him who's fulfilling eternal purposes namelessly, he is the eternal one. One of the great statements is David in Psalm 90. Thou hast been my dwelling place for all generations, from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God, what a statement. From everlasting to everlasting, thou art God. Now this is him, that's the one, and from the beginning, you've known him from the beginning, means you're part of the everlasting process. Now you're beyond the relationship of father son, you're the eternal one, there's eternal purposes which in process are being fulfilled. From everlasting to everlasting, from the beginning, means you're in the middle somewhere, not in the beginning, not at the beginning, not at the end. You know him from the beginning. So they're parting to a relationship where it's not a question of dependence on God the father and son, it's a co-God. That's something different. Father son means I'm in a certain relationship, some benefits to me, some joy, some wonder. But when I'm by God I'm just myself. It's based on that relationship, I'm beyond relationship. I'm part of the eternal one, from everlasting to everlasting, knowing you, means being, knowing you are part now of this one, knowing you are, who is eternally fulfilling eternal purposes. Eternal purposes of eternal love, love manifestation of course. Until it comes out as we said yesterday in the phrase, in 1 Corinthians 15, then the whole universe will know that God maybe is all in all. He all in all. So this is one of the terms used at the third level. Where we lift it beyond the dependent level to the cooperating level. We're not relying on him, we're co-with him. Different. You may say if you like, let's put forth in subdivision as we see it in the great Romans chapters. Where you then get the stages, justification, Romans 1 to 3. Unification, this is what we are in the eternal union, Romans 6 to 8. From Romans 9 to 15 never questions any further that of our relationship to him. We pass from a justified relationship to a unified relationship to a co-saviour relationship. You're a co-saviour, a co-operator, co-laborer, co-with God, not dependent on him. And so the last 9 chapters, it's our relationship to people outside ourselves. Our relationship to the church, our relationship to government, our relationship to our brethren, our relationship finally to the whole lost world, the Gentiles. So we're operating as a co-saviour involved in saviourhood involvement, interests. If you like, it's identification with man, with man's needs. It's from justification to unification to identification, not identification with God, that's unification. Identification with man's needs now. Eternal lover in action, in that sense, that can be called the third. It's given us, right through those letters, but you might subdivide into three letters, of Galatians, Colossians and Ephesians. When we speak of the relationship to Christ in his death, crucified with him, which means that we're cut off from the old, that old indwelling false deity. And Colossians is risen with him, and Colossians says Christ's our life. Before crucifixion, Satan's our life, our death life. Life which is called life is only death. He was our death life. And in the crucifixion level in Galatians, we're crucified with Christ, crucified with the world. The flesh has been crucified in his affections and lusts and so on. So it's all the crucifixion level. Cut off from the old false deity of death life, which isn't life at all, it's really death. Colossians speaks about Christ's our life, that's life life. So we've moved in Colossians level now to what is our second level of course. Oh, it's he. It's I, but it's really he. The third level is Ephesians when you understand it. Ephesians is the ascended level. Relationships is identification with Christ is cross cut out. Colossians, identification with Christ in being the new person. And here's a mystery. The tape has faded out. I'm substituting from another tape, from another Hickston, the parts that I think we've missed. Ephesians is Colossians. Ephesians of course you know is the ascended life. When we've left our cross identification, our resurrection identification behind and therefore the basis of Ephesians is seated with him, which means something's been settled and finished. But not seated in the sense of inactivity, because it's not seated in activity. God's totally active, so are we. But seated in the sense of a certain understanding of who I am is settled. Crucified, risen. And the seating is the evidence that that's been completed. Having left that behind, we move into a new level of action. Therefore the throne life is the outgoing life, the reproducing life. It's from the throne the Holy Ghost goes out as a third person. He was a third person in us, now he's a third person by us. So it says he led, what is he also? When you say it up and high, he led captivity captive. That's the previous one, the devil's captives become his captives. That's the cross of resurrection. And gave gifts unto men. That's the Holy Spirit equipping us for action. That's where the gifts are. And all the gifts come in there as forms by which the Holy Spirit moves into action by us. Into saving action. That's all. And now something on Philippians. Perfection. Completion of the purpose of God by us, not in us. It says not that I'm really perfect. That's not referring to inner perfection. It's referring to the completion of the outer product. What God does by me. That's why it says in Hebrews that Christ's perfection was that having learned obedience to the things which he suffered. Being made perfect, he's able to bring all others into that same relationship. Out from him. That's what that perfection is. Though he were a son, learned obedience to the things which he suffered. Being made perfect. He became the author. That's the perfection of salvation. Unto all them that obey him. His perfection was to bring other people into what he got. And that's an incomplete perfection. Because that only finishes when our, as far as this was concerned, when our human life finishes. And that's what he's referring to in Philippians. When he uses, as the whole scripture does, the threefold levels. And he said he had been a lost person fully. His loss is, of course, his selfhood. Self-centeredness. I might have conscience of the flesh. He may think that he has, well he might trust the flesh. I'm all. That's self-centered self. All his values. Concerning the circumcising of the eighth day. The stock of Israel. The pride of Benjamin. Hebrew of the Hebrews. Touching the law of Pharisee. Concerning his zeal. Persecuting the church. Touching the righteousness of the Lord. A perfect selfhood. A perfect devil. A perfect devil. A perfectly self-sufficient self. In all its level of perfection. His level of perfection was a perfect self-righteousness. And that's a perfect devil. And then he says, so the first step, what things were gain to me, that was a kind of loss for Christ. He saw the devilishness of that false perfection by contrast with Stephen. That's why our lives can fix other people. But when he was headed up the stoning of Stephen. And when Stephen was being, had these stones poured on him. He was a dying man. All his business, all his needs. He looked to heaven and he said, I see Christ standing by the right hand of God and so on. And then the last thing he said, Lord, lay not these things in their charge. That got him. His love was to destroy Stephen. God's love in Stephen was to save his enemies. Got him. Other love. He didn't want his enemies to go to hell. Paul wanted his enemies to go to hell. He saw a difference. And that's the gold. The prodders. You kicked against the pricks. Kicked against the gold. All those years inside Paul, all those months, it got him. And because he was an intense man, he intensely reacted. So intense reaction is very healthy. It's a good sign. So intense reaction of murdering the Christians. To escape this inner gold. You're wrong. You're wrong. You're off beam. Because he was at the bottom of a sincere man. This false, this self-loving, self-elevating self. Making much of your Jewishness and your temple. This is a lie. The treasure of the love of Christ. One thing to gain to me. There's a loss of Christ beneath. When he got the vision of the love of Christ. Come to him. Same as he came to Peter. From the heavens. And this voice said to him, Saul, Saul, why petrifyst thou me? And he caught the meaning of love. He caught the meaning of eternal love. Through Peter, through Stephen. In Christ. That was his gain. To be. Accepted and received. As a. Redeemed son by. By Christ. But then he had to move on. From. Being. An accepted self. To finding. Who he truly was. A Christ self. Not Christ for him. But Christ as he. Being he. And for that he had to go through a. Painful process. Of. Which he had to. Experience the cross. He received the benefits of Christ's cross. One thing to gain to me. There's a kind of loss of Christ. Justification to Christ's cross. Now he had to experience the cross. And it says yea doubtless. And I count all things but loss. Not just my self-righteousness. All I am. All I have. All things but loss. Not just the. My own. Ego-hood. In the sense of my pride. And self-judgment. And all that. For the excellence of. Exceeding. Excellence of the knowledge. Exceeding. Knowledge in a knowledge. Exceeding realization. Of Christ my Lord. Meaning Christ has taken me over. He's the me. He's the one righteous. Not I. Not I my Lord. Christ my Lord. At exceeding new stage. That he was this person. His whole being to be this person. So he said that cost him all things. To whom I suffer the loss of all things. So it cost him. So there was some. There was a hurt there. In that dying. Whatever forms it took. Being cast out of his own people. Personal hurt. Talk about personal hurt there. He suffered. The loss of all things. So it cost him. To lose him. That's the. That's the next stage. When. You find the. Total precious. Treasure of life. But precious is my being he. He being you. Christ is my Lord. My Lord. Not just my Savior. My Lord's implication. He's the one. Who runs this show now. He's the I. Instead of I being my own Lord. Or Satan being my Lord. Jesus Christ's not just my Savior. He's my Lord. So there's. What's that? Norman. Is this cost. A cost that you are real conscious of. Or is it really. Other people. Who see the cost. More than you do. I don't think you sense. That. Your life. Has had such a. Tremendous cost. You've done what you had to do. What you wanted to do. And I suppose. Objectively. There might have been a cost. But do you really. Yourself. See it as a great price. You pay. Giving all to Jesus. Or don't other people. See that cost. About 10 times. As much as you do. I would think. In saying that. Confusing. The price I paid. To an intercessor. And the price I paid. To discover the union. This is the. This is the preliminary price. He paid. I think he paid it. In those three days. When he learned. He could suffer many things. For my sake. Before the Holy Ghost God. I don't know. I mean. This. This price. I'm not talking about. This costly price. Isn't the cost. Of having lost all things. Now you're. Now you. You're burned out. You're. You're. You're. You become a living sacrifice. That's another kind of suffering. That's a technicality of suffering. That's the intercessory of suffering. That's what he calls. My light affliction. That's what light to him. This wasn't light to him. In other words. There is a place. Where we. It costs us to die. Or to finally die. Finally die. Isn't that right? Amen. Amen. Right. It's cost. That's all. Sometimes. Well. Cost. What I'm going on to say. Is this. The whole point of this is. He turns right round. And he lowers the thought. Of the things he once loved. This. Is the third. Because where he'd. Where he'd said here. I count all things but lost. For the excellent knowledge. Of Christ Jesus my Lord. Whom I've suffered the loss. Of those things. Now. And do count the bedung. Bedung is offensive. Bedung is manure. It's not very pleasant. Those things are very pleasant. The smell of those things are pleasant. I don't want to lose my reputation. I don't want to lose my everything. I don't want to lose them. And I'm losing things. That have a pleasant smell to me. They turn round now. And have an offensive smell to me. It's a very radical change there. So the values of life have changed. Now this is the third one. That's not the second. The second is. The second is discovering. He is my life. Or my. My me. My all. Which has had a cost in it. And then that cost has gone. I agree. Then it's gone. It has been that. And then you move into this life. When it's. You. But then. When you move into this life. This new life. You're so. So. Sold out. To others having it. That anything. If. It feels actually. Done to you. Not a complete bother. It's offensive to you. You have to waste your life. Not on daily duties. That's part of the way God comes through. But in things. Which are. My. My interests. Values of life have changed. So everything I have. Becomes part of something for others. Like your life Bill. Like John and Lyndon's. On their home. It's for others. It would be offensive to them. Just to run a big show. And have a nice home. Or you to. Accumulate your money. You can't do it. It's become done to you. But there was a time when you liked doing it. And that's why I had to die. But once I have died. Somewhere that cost. The hate not. There is a place. You hate not. Father. Mother. Wife. Children. Houses. Lands. Your own life also. All that he has. Cannot be my son. What you really hate. Is that self love. Which is. That love of. Not. Not that. Well. It's. It's. It's. A completion of that. End of self love in Christ. But that love which is still attached to things and people. Father. Mother. Wife. Children. Houses. Lands. They are things. They are not my salvation now. But they are things. And to some extent I am still attached. Now that's the detachment. That's the middle detachment. So radical. Because Jesus uses such radical terms. We wouldn't say hate. We just say dislike. Jesus saw in total terms. He's a total person. And to say you hate your father. And your mother. And your wife. And your children. Your houses. Your lands. Yet really we do. Actually we've done it. Because when the chips are down we do it. When the chips are down. We'll sacrifice anything for Jesus. We won't if we help it. But if the chips are there we'll do it. Which is we hate. It's the same hate that Jesus had. When his mother and brethren tried to get him out of all the crowds around him. Thought he was getting fanatical. The children of Zion said to him. He said. No I don't see you. Who am I? You're my brother and my brethren. Who do the will of God? I reject my mother and father. I hate them. His own mother. The same mother whom he commended to John's care on the cross. Was the mother who a few years before said. I don't deal with you. You're not my mother. These people are my mothers. That's strong. That's Jesus. That's radical. And so. Basically. There is a hate. Because love is hate of course. It has to hate that which combats love. So this was. I'm trying to say. I think that's the second one. It's. I hope. Something we've gone through. And passed out of. But as we look back. There was a certain area. Which was a costly business. But now the very things which we might at that time. Have felt costly to lose. We laugh at keeping. Not only laugh. We. We don't want them. They. They're offensive to us. They annoy us. They. They'd be. In the. Wrong to us. A hindrance to us. We don't want them. We want everything for Jesus. That. The curious thing is of course. When everything. You do everything back. That's the paradox. You come back. Into Paul's. One Corinthians two. When. Three. When he. When he says. When you are Christ. In other words. You are Christ. That's not the way. He's taking you over. In. For all things are yours. Whether Paul. Or Paulus. Or Peter. Or the. All the world. All ours. All life. All death. All things present. All things coming. All are yours. Twice over. Not all are not yours. All are yours. It's an extraordinary paradox. You hate them. You get rid of them. Then you go and move back. Because you want them for others. Because the. The main theme. Behind. Behind all personal journey. Is that maybe some meet others. Get a bit. That's proof. That's what you do. Life is. That's what. We're moving into. And. We're saying that. Dan. I was saying last night. It's a radical basis. And. I mean last night. To be. Not many of us sort of say. Well. I'm. Related to this. To this. Union of something. What we're saying is. You can't be a person. Who you're not you but Christ. Without being a person for others. He'll make you. Because actually he's only in nature. He's for others. So you are for others. He's got to come out. Thank you. Now please fast forward to the. Remainder of the message. On this side. That Norman did. Week five. Nineteen eighty one. At Hickston. But. Oh I ought to get that. And here. In four he says. No. You're full. Oh. You haven't yet found that. The. The ultimate. The positive emptiness. You may have been emptied of your sins. Even for yourself. You may have to find the apostleship. When you're fattened up for other people. You haven't found that yet. So he says. You are full. And he says. You're rich. You've got lots. Not just physical riches. I mean Christ's riches. But Christ's riches he's been spent again for other people you see. That's the whole danger. Of some movement of the day. Like Hagen movement and so on. They make you think. Hagen. That man. They make you think. Christianity brings prosperity. Yes. Prosperity. The prosperity of dying for other people. That's the prosperity you get. Of losing it all for others. That's the prosperity you get. Oh it isn't this. You don't want this other stuff. Your prosperity is that you know him. And you know him. That's my prosperity. My prosperity isn't other stuff is it. You don't want it when you're an apostle. You only want one prosperity. Which other people be walking Christ. Because that's the eternal. Eternal dimension. But look here. So he's saying to him. Now you've got God here. You're baptised. You've got tithes. You're rich in gifts. You're blessed. And you are. You're blessed people. And you say you're poor. And you say you're rich. And you even say you've reigned as kings. And he said. Well of course he's really reigned. You see he reigned. Isn't reigning funny. Do you say no for eternity we have a lamb on the throne. Isn't that something. How can you have that. A lamb on a throne. Eternity is married by a lamb. The great revelation. The final person on the throne in the revelation. The lamb was on the throne. Not a roaring lion. A lamb. Because totally threatened out for other people. Lamb as it had been slain. His whole being is to be absorbed in us. Some king. Some king. So you see when he says to. For instance. You reign. I wish you did reign. You think you reign because you've got it all. Oh I'm pretty good now. Spiritually. Not earthly. Spiritually pretty good. See. Now look. He says having said that. He said. I'll tell you the real thing. Verse 9. I think that God has set forth the apostles last. As it were appointed dead. So our point is not to keep on living. But to keep dying quickly for others. I'm busy doing that myself now. Die quickly for others. Not to die. Except it will be a death. And so your end will be a death that others may live. And this will be your way of living. We are discussing that in detail. We are discussing it later on. We'll be discussing it in more detail. The apostles. Intercession. But you see what he says. See. I have to say that in my own precious mission. You have precious people in them. Only a few. I think I mentioned. Only a few. See. Of course I already live. But other people may live. But we have one. I mentioned. Actually it wasn't. It's just the most recent I have. We have a precious. A very rough and ready man. But a good printer. Not much education. He and his wife went out. Oh in my day. About 1928 or something. Went out. They'd been about 50 years or more. In part of the Congo. In the forest. And they hammered away at printing. They built their own printing presses. Translated. To get the living word to those precious people. And they'd given us year by year. Year by year. Well they're now. Somewhere getting towards their 80s I suppose. And their son. Picked up from them. By the Holy Spirit. And become a first class printer. And he's our printer in London. He has tremendous machines. And a tremendous printing job. In the headquarters of our mission. For England and the world. His name is Brian. This man's name is Cripps. Now I just heard. When I'm home. Brian Cripps who's at home with his wife. Doing his business. Is timing. Dropping his wife. To visit his father. Because his father and mother are just about to die in Congo. Not the father and mother come back and die at home. The son goes out. To bid farewell to the father. In the battle line. Isn't that it? Isn't that it? He'd never seen anything except. Here. We're here. Until. Until people get to Godfrey. Up we go that's all. See. A point down to death. A point down to death. And I always say to us. We haven't. Thank God we're not bored of our mission. Bored to death. To preserve our mission. It's a lie. No they're not. They're happy to die. We've got nothing wrong. All we do people. Keep them alive. Get them more finances. No helping to die. One anxious. One anxious Bible school leader. Asked one of our men recently. Did I hear that. You have. Pretty tough times on your missionaries. And. He might even starve to death. So Godfrey said. Oh yes. He said. God must starve him. Well. You are there to die. Didn't Jesus die? He saved our. Well he couldn't save himself could he? God didn't save him. Except through resurrection. He got his harvest down the other side. Not down here. He's got it down the other side. Where's the harvest now. Long after he's gone. In the flesh. This is apostleship. There's no meaning to life. Except to the end. You're going to be involved. Involved. Involved. By whatever means. We haven't discussed the means now. By whatever means. You'll be some of the means. Which Christ repeats himself to other people. People. Not only born again. But live in Christ. See what I mean. And then go on with it. I tell you. This is. This is. You enjoy this. Some of you do now. You're part of it. You enjoy this. You say. Yeah. You enjoy it. Because apostles enjoy being apostles. And you go on. It says. See. We're pointed unto death. And it's interesting. It says that verse. As we're pointed to death. We're made a spectacle. To the world. And to angels. And to men. Now. Spectacle in the Greek. It's a theatre. I say. Oh. You watch. Watch. Your eyes are all glued on some dramatic thing happening. There's something about us. We're so dramatic. People's eyes are glued on us. Of course. They think we're crazy. But if people. If people's eyes aren't glued on you. You're not very alive yet. If you're alive. Some of these eyes are glued on you. Probably antagonistically. A few favourably. Oh. Look. Look. Look. Look. Please turn your tape over. And they're a spectacle. And they startle you. How can a person be so crazy? How crazy is that? Oh. So perfect is that. What's that? That's it. Now. That's what we are. Now. Get it. You're that. Don't say you ought to be now. This is what the Holy Spirit makes us. Has begun to make us. You know that. And then he goes on. We're fools. For Christ's sake. Yeah. Why? Well. We're sort of. No. We're fools. We don't want to do about it. It's all right. No. We're fools. In the eyes of the. We're. We're a mess. We despise. Well. Maybe we have a little bit of that in you, in your life. Hopefully. We despise. No. In honor of the nations. For. As is present I. I know. I can't tell you can do very much of this in existence. We hunger and thirst. I haven't noticed as very much as that around here. But. We're supposed to hunger and thirst. And. And naked. I see a little of that here. And. And. And. And. And. And. and, excuse me, and buffeted, and have no certain dwelling place and so on, with labour working with our hands, I have seen that with you dear people, especially in there, reviled with breast, persecuted with suffering, defamed with intrigue, the filth of the world, and the off-scarring of all things unto this day. This is top line, top line third level, and the glory is you love it. So this is it. I am top line when the spirit pits me, I'm that kind of person as the world sees me, and as the church sees you. Isn't that something? And then he says, I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved son I warn you, don't fool yourself that anything less is the real thing. That's all. And we don't fool ourselves, that's why we're here, we don't fool ourselves, we know that. So I'm saying, now I jump then, I jump to what the product of discipleship is, which is apostleship. Discipleship is, as I say, apostleship is graduated discipleship. You've been through discipleship, you're an apostle. Now I only want to say with caution that we're being through, being through, because God has taken many of us through. It's only a matter of affirming what it is, don't you go by that for a feeling business. I'm so deaf, I couldn't hear all your weird and wonderful chatters last night, they sounded interesting, but I couldn't hear many of them, but I think they were pretty good for an idea. And all this soul stuff and fear, I think some of that came out, you know, and that's not the real stuff at all. So don't go by a soul feeling, you go by what are the facts. And the fact of Luke 14, this is discipleship. So if you're talking about, talking about discipleship, underline that scripture. Luke 14 goes from verse 38, well to the end if you like. No, I can't see very well, it's 25, verse 25, Luke 14 verse 25 to the end. That's why he says this startling statement to the people, the multitude, the only man come to be in hate not, hate not, is father, mother, wife, children, whoa. And today we're told family is the centre, isn't the centre, this family is the centre. The other family is going to fit with this family, not this family is going to fit with that one. Father doesn't say human family is the centre, he says this family is the centre, human family sits next to this one. It's wrong here. So he made hate not father, mother, wife, children, brethren, sisters, he had his own life also, and if you add to it, for instance the Matthew document, houses and lands also, possessions, put that in there, houses and lands, possessions, his own life also, his physical life of course, he cannot be but a disciple. Whoa, isn't that something? You can't be a disciple unless this hate has become a hate in you, and has had its operative effect on you, and which therefore means you bear a cross, because the cross of course is, and things have been cut off, people haven't liked it, haven't liked being cut off maybe, come after me, come after me. Now he does say at that time sit down and count the cost. I take it that way people have done that. He says now if you sit down, verse 20, if you build a tower, you sit down first and count the cost, you can finish it. If you go to war, you sit down first, find if your army is strong enough to conquer the other one. Those are verses 28 to 32. Then he ends, so likewise, whosoever he be, if he were to forsake not all that he hath, cannot be my disciple, because he hath is a point. He hath is a point, because he hath is a self. See this is one of the many scriptures that is worth noticing this often. The scripture has to use external terms for internal truths, because there is no other way to get it out. Especially when you are speaking to people who knew nothing. Now Jesus was not speaking to people who knew nothing, he wasn't speaking to the church even, the church of Jesus Christ. He was the church of the law. So he wasn't speaking to people who knew what he was talking about. We do know, so we can interpret. So you have to use all the way through, very startling phrases, your right hand, don't let your right hand know what your left hand do, cut your right hand off, cut your eye off, use all kinds of expressions, startling expressions, because he had to use physical, that's why he had physical healing. Don't fuss about physical healing, he wasn't interested. What's the healing a body and spirit does the next day? I mean the body gets sick again. We talk about that, what he did, in the true healing you become an eternally healed person, but what does the body matter, some are healed some are not. I think God would deliver us from, at least on the body healing, no spirit healing, I'm not going further on that now. But it's all, what I was saying, the reason why Jesus had made miracles, John called them signs, John always had things right, he had signs, he called them signs, signs of what? Of his deity. See when he came, there was no spirit in people, except a very few, a handful, had anything you called a spirit in them by which he could interpret what was happening. So the whole lot were external people, he had no means of showing them that this was, that he was God in action. So he did it, he utilised a good many outer miracles, signs, turning water into wine, and feeding the multitudes, and healing people. Outer things, which isn't a real thing at all. The world isn't saved because water turned into wine, or there's five thousand affairs. It would be better not to be afraid and trust the Lord, no one gets fooled by faith maybe. But he had things that teach him. So, in other words, don't hang yourself around, we should see that kind of thing. That's not what he came to do. And that's why he said at John 14, greater work shall be done than the issue ye do. Because the greater work is the eternal healing, and the eternal sight, and the eternal riches, and the eternal being. Then you've done the job. When we've been means of which other people have said, oh now I'm Christ indeed, that's the job, that's the job. So you see, I'm only saying Jesus had to use outer terms, outer forms, because the only way he could put things to startle you into moving in, which came when the Holy Ghost came, is the inner. We're after Pentecost, and to us he moved into the inner. And that's why this phrase, hate, you see, the secret is that last word he had. He said you hate not father, mother, unless you hate father, mother, house, land, wife, children, you can't be myself. Who said, who said, he had, because all you had was yourself. That, they could, only those with spirit inside can see that. All you ever had was yourself. All you saw was yourself. You never had other people. You had the Satan's self-love in you. That was yourself. And self-love is me for me. So when you were on stage, your father was for me, and your wife's for me, my children for me, my house is for me, my money is for me, my house is for me, me, me, me, me. You don't have them, you have yourself. And the means by which they satisfy a bit of yourself. It's yourself you've got, being sort of satisfied by having this father, this wife, these children, this and this. It's the me you've got. So you see, the hate is this, when you're on stage, you basically hate yourself. Oh I don't like that, that old self, oh I see a lot less of it. My old self now is a self-getting self, oh I've got a self-giving self inside me now, I'm Jesus self, self-giving self. So it isn't the outer change, it's the inner change. And then the hate becomes love, and so you begin to love the people you hated because you're for them, now I'm not there for you. In the old life, there for me, there for me, there for me. And that, the hate was really, you had to hate all you had which was your me, me, me, which was symbolised in these outer forms you had, me, me, me. You hate that, it's changed in the new birth, it's changed the spirit of self getting Satan out, spirit of self getting Christ within, and now you've got spirit of love, now your attitude, your me has changed, now you love them, you're there to serve them now. So you're there now to serve your father and your mother and your wife and children and so on. It changes around. But, there's one important background to that. Actually, all you have is God. And you have the others as part of, may be, part of me so God gives you. So actually you don't get others back, you get God over you. Now this is the type of thing. You go into a detachment. So you have a new quality of love. The old kind of love was grab, grab, grab, me, me, me, fight, fight, fight. That new quality is a love, but the flesh doesn't like it because it's detached love. My real love is Jesus. My real love isn't my wife or my husband. My real love isn't my kids, it's God. My real love isn't my position, it's God. Now your kids, your wife and your husband don't like it too well. They want to be with people and fun, so they touch you. So you see there is, now this is discipleship is detachment, it's a comeback of God. The basis of discipleship is somewhere he has to call you. We use that phrase, used by the great mystics of old. That life is the flight of the alone to the alone. At Potomac, everyone goes there and God has to call you there. There is nothing left to yourself. You are cornered by sufferings, by prejudices, by hurts. There is only you and God. And you come in to find of course that you are part of a perfect love and perfect love and all that. You come into wonders. Now in that there has become an eternal detachment from people or things. So you have a new quality of love. It's not a grab love, it's a serving love which may sometimes be hurt, sometimes may appear to touch. That love isn't your number one love and they know it. See what I mean? And something has to happen in which the love remains and it's a detached love. I use the best illustrations I know about that which is, poor me had it anyhow. I wrote on a very important basis the question of the affections. And this was something for me. Now I have just written a little bit of illustration. At that time I was a student. Now we had been through World War I so we weren't usually useful students. We were about 24 to 25 years of age. We had been soldiers for 4 or 5 years. And we had now went back to complete our college courses. At that time the Lord had brought me into touch with the mission to which I belonged, C.G.'s son. And I found he had three daughters, four daughters, three had been grabbed, one left, so I grabbed the one that was left. And we fell in love. That was Pauline, the youngest daughter, C.G.'s son, who filed our mission. It was a real love, we knew it. We were for God together. I was finishing my college career with the abuse to go down to the mission field and she was with her mother acting as secretary in the mission. Her mother ran the little mission in those days, a mission which I now belong to for years, which was very small in those days. And there we were, we got engaged so we had a real love relationship. She was too but I was, I was in this for God. And I went through certain phases where I came by reading that most important, who wrote the revivals of religion? Phinney, Charles Phinney. One of the most terrific books, Charles Phinney was a great revivalist about a hundred years ago, a New America revivalist. And he wrote a book on revivalism, and that doesn't matter, except that time I read it. And as I read it, I said, I have certain reason to believe I'm loving Pauline more than I'm loving God. Oh, that tore me up, because I was a God lover. That tore me up. I didn't know much about conviction and condemnation in those days, I was learning. Oh, I thought, what am I to do? I really think I'm loving Pauline more than God, what shall I do? Of course it wasn't true, surely I didn't love Pauline, so I shouldn't be bothered of course. So maybe wisely or unwisely, I went up to where she was staying, we went on a little vacation, I told her so. Well she didn't know these things too well then, she loved God. And she went into a stew of two days unknown to me. At the end of her stew she came back and called me and gave me back the ring and said, it's finished. Oh, I was shot through. Because we had a real understanding, a real love, we'd been engaged maybe six months and we were purposely in the grand commission field, and she cut it in half. Well I didn't know much about accepting suffering or knowing the ways of the law in crucifixion in those days, I was young at it. So it hurt, it hurt. But she wouldn't have it, it was finished. And so we parted. And although I had to go, I had six bad months. Because I'd said this thing was real, what happened? And yet it had finished. And I had it worse for this reason. I had a great friend of mine, a college friend, we were about the same levels, and he was for God too, and to serve the law, and thinking he must serve the law in the mission field or something. And he was an honourable fellow, he really loved my fiancée too. So when I was out of the way, quite honourably, he told me he'd have a go. And so he did. And I saw my friend getting friendly with my Pauline. Now the problem was this, at that time our mission in Africa was only about six strong, we'd just started, right in the heart of the forest, about six different huts you might say, with six different wonderful people living, going out to get golf with us, and we'd go out and join them. And I said to myself, his name was Godfrey, if Godfrey marries Pauline, you know what will happen, I'll be out in Africa, he'll do me one hug and I'll be up next door, they'll like it very much. We'd know about a white person within 500 miles probably. Along came my uncle, this is a little story, I'll show you what I mean. My uncle was a lovely godly man, a preacher of the gospel. And he saw my hurt, and he thought he comforted me a little. Oh he said Norman, I have a relationship, a good attachment with a mission in India, this is Africa, we're going to Africa, India. He said, I'm sure they'll be glad to have you, let's just arrange it and you can set out to India, a big temptation. You know what the Holy Spirit said? Didn't I tell you Congo? Before that I had to call. Well I said, well are you going to do it? I had to follow. You see, he tests your rock bottom heart, doesn't he? Tests your heart. I had to follow. So I had to say, well although you loved him, I'll have to go and agonise in the next hut, in the middle of Africa, that's all. But you know the jokes the Holy Spirit plays. Now this is how it all painted up. If I hadn't done that, the Stout family, this mission was a very small mission, at those days it was 1500, now we're at 35, a very small mission. And the family stuck, you see. And they said, oh that Norman, he'll leave you, he won't come near us to get off this business, he'll find he's going elsewhere. So they expected me to disappear. Well I didn't disappear, well I continued with my plans to go to Africa. Pauline, the one from whom I'd broken off, her brother-in-law's home, who's a man of God, and he, Pauline, why are you so silly? You know you love that man, and here he is going back to that same, he's going back to that same, why are you so silly, why don't you get back to him? At the same time he had a very convenient verse, sometimes you get convenient verses in the Bible. And this is the verse in Philemon, when Paul was sending back the slave Onesimus, back to his owner Philemon. And he says this to Philemon, perhaps Onesimus departed from the first season, that there might be a second month, and I said, forever. And this was the verse Pauline got. So he said, I'd better go back. So I say she proposed to me a second time. Now this is our 62nd year. Now you know we've had lots, but something's different, you see what I mean, something's different in our marriage. From that time onwards our marriage was to God and the world, and it's always been like that. So we've had a wonderful marriage, we've had children, partly blessed with this year, and a granddaughter, so I'm very proud, aren't I proud dear? So I have a granddaughter here, isn't that something? With us? So no wonder I'm full of pride, like they could. So what I mean, what I mean is we've had a healthy marriage, lots of partying, and we've told him many ways, and I think Daniel will tell you plenty on that side, he can give me away. But it's been for God. Now even now for instance, the last 3 or 4 years, Pauline's not been out of bed. Now this is the element you make, she's not wanted me to go. Up to about 6 months ago, she didn't like me going away really, she never stopped me. Now she's in bed, she's beautifully cared for, there was no need for me to be there, lovingly cared for, there was no need for me to be there, and so off I went on these tours with all of you. Now the last 6 months she's, 4 or 5 months, she's lost a bit of consciousness, so she hardly knows, but that's intercession. She's always given me up that the world may have the gospel. She's never said please you must stay with me, never. So you see, you get into a relationship, which is a love, it's a detached love. It's a real love, it's lasted 6 or 7 years, I'm putting it that way. It's a real love, never an unchanged love, and the Lord gives us our family and all that, it's a real, it's been a detached love. And I've not been first to her, or she first to me. So do you see what I mean by discipleship? Discipleship means something's happened to you, you have your loved people, you have them, but they're not the first to you. You're eaten up by God. And very likely you'll get some hard knocks for that purpose from those who don't like you. They want you to be eaten up by them, so they don't like the other 2 worlds. Now do you see what I mean? Now what I'm saying, that's discipleship wept out in you, but now be careful so it's done. The spirit is the person in you, don't go by yourself. So now, I may not feel it like that, but it's done. Now that gives you possessions. See, it means you aren't dependent on your salary, you aren't dependent on your investments, you're not dependent on your pensions, your job, you're not dependent. But you're glad to have them now. The freedom is you have what you're given and use all of it. Keep what you can. Don't give up a single thing, keep all you can. Grab all you can. Because you see, you're using what you've got to use for God, but you're detached from it. Oh, I'll use it for my God, I won't have it. I haven't got to have a salary, I've not got to have a job, I've not got an ability, I've got God. So now you say that and you don't feel like it. You feel, oh no, I must have my assurances. Don't go with your feelings. See, despite that, God, I say to you, you are my assurance. And when the chips are down, you are my health. And you're my lover, and you're my life. I'm glad I have the others. I've used them and I've got them. I've used them for other people, but they're not what I really am. And if you want to take them away, OK, you give me the grace to go through. That same famous uncle of mine, who helped me about India, or nearly ruined me about India. He said, dear man, I remember one person asked him, he's not good either, about endurance or sacrifice. And so, a little joke, but he said, and somebody said to him, well Mr. so and so, supposing I'm martyred, and supposing you go and stick me in boiling oil, what should I do? Well, he said, you have boiling oil grace, you have boiling oil grace. In other words, you've got, therefore, he said, don't say you haven't got grace. Don't say, oh I don't feel like, don't say that. Say, God, nobody holds me, and you will make it true when necessary. Don't mistake yourself for the oil, good, good, good. Don't say that. Say, you've got a lot now. I am detached now. And only if you make it a fact to me. Then you may feel not detached. You get my point? If you feel not detached, try to be, you're in trouble. If you say, please make me detached, you're in trouble. You're getting to work it. Because the spirit is the one that has fixed you in to be a total lover with a total obsession, which is, other people may have quite a few, but that's all. Well now, that's the stages leading of establishment in the third level. Of course, the background establishment is what happened in the first and second level, we know that. Getting us in this Christ relationship. And then moving to the third level, in between the two, is this recognition of attachment, which is the negative, the recognition I'm obsessed. And I have nothing, life means, can mean nothing to me, except other people had the Christ I had. That's all the world universe is. People who are walking Christ, of course. So, that's the basis of the third level, that God has, and by faith has, whether you feel it or not, operates so you are detached, and no one's in the foreground for you. Constant. On the negative side, on the positive side, that means you have no other interest, except by whatever means it may be, I'm participating somewhere in the way in which Christ can live himself and other people as he lives in them. On that level, I would suggest, you and I complete our recognition of being the apostles, of being the third level people. We always use, we use two promises, most of you know them. You're moving to the positive now when you are affirming who you are. See the point of it is, it's out from you now. Number one of two is he in you. This is out from you, or you and he coming out in your form, out from you. So the third level promises centre around not he in you, but he out from you. That's how we, the main one we centre on and use is John 7 38. In the last day of the feast, that great day, Jesus stood and cried saying, if any man thirst, let him come to me and drink. Now that's second level, we settle that. We don't hunger again, thirst any more, do we? That's settled, because we have the total one in us. Next one, he said he believeth on me, and the scripture said, this is an interesting statement, because the scripture doesn't say it. So now, any of you preachers who get to the likes of Walter Lanyon's books, you find Walter Lanyon also a little misquote scripture, because he's getting the meat and nut out of it. It isn't exact words always. On the whole, it's good to say the exact words, because they're here. But the scripture doesn't. There's no place where the scripture says this. Jesus said he did, the scripture doesn't say so. He said, he that believeth on me, he goes on to say, he that believeth on me, as the scripture said, out of his belly, out of the innermost centre, shall flow rivers and living water. That's an interpretation of Zekiel. But it isn't what Zekiel actually said. He's interpreted it as Zekiel, and the rivers flowing and all that sort of business. There's no place where the Bible says so. So you see, it doesn't too far out with a person in seeking to interpret the Bible, they put themselves a little bit to distance to get the truth out. I think it's just an interesting passing spot, that one. But that's only a detail at the moment. Now, this is the, shall I say, the entry label, entry recognition of being on the third level, that we've received this promise. And the interesting thing, of course, is, that it's tied to the same way by which others receive, or it's tied to a belief. It's precisely the same as John 3.16, you believe to gain eternal life. And the grace of eternity, you believe to know that you are not you but he, and then you are he, then you are you. And each case, you believe it. So, I don't think a person, as I said before, comes into an establishment without, if you like, the fact of faith. Fighting faith isn't fighting faith, it's faith fighting. You're not fighting faith. Fighting faith means that you are affirming it until it happens. In affirming faith, you're fighting all which pulls away from your faith. So in that sense, for most of us, a fight of faith, we may have to get into a second one. And I'm only saying this, just to become clear to you, it's sunk into me years ago. When everything is real, it's sunk into me, I say, by grace. It's sunk into me, I'm not either Christ. This is sunk into me. He said, out of you flow rivers. Now, that's against appearances, you know. Just the same as Christ replacing himself, of course, when you go right, it's against appearances. So this is against, so you see, I'm just dropping out to you. When you're conditioned, and I think many of us have passed through that condition, that you've taken this, you've taken this deep into you. And he said, that out of me travel, but barely probably could travel, shall flow rivers, and you know how that scripture John in the next verse explains why he says shall, because at that time the Holy Ghost hadn't come, so he couldn't speak of the Holy Ghost coming through people, so he had to say, Jesus had to say shall flow. We ought to be, because it is flowing. And then we say therefore this is a fact of me. See, can you see it? In order to underline that, I gave my own little illustration there, because it shows how real it is. I saw this years ago, much at the same time I had settled this battle up with Pauline, and we went to Mission Field, and some fellow put this thing, this promise to us, and I saw it, but it seemed to me just a young man, just going out to my first area of service in the Congo, said out of me are flowing rivers, well, you've got to believe it, how could I believe it? So what I, I struck a bargain this way, I said, it says believe, I believe. You say so. As to the amount, I'll water it out a bit. I say, at least a trickle of muddy water come out. But I did believe, you see my point? I believe that it is flowing. I hadn't got much more faith except for a trickle of muddy water, but I had faith for a trickle. So there was a real faith, which nevertheless, Lord Jesus, I had as much belief that as I believe John 6.16. So do you see, I'm saying to you, so have you done it, so have you maybe, and God's got to press, settle these things yet more thoroughly into you, and you say, that's what I believe. You're a third level person when you believe it, because I believe a third level person, the spirit has its ways with which it flows out of view, of rivers. It doesn't look like it. You're a homemaker, maybe a mother with children, maybe a business woman, or maybe it's this. You don't look at those things. It's like God's no respect of jobs any more, he's a people of persons. He's got respect of his own, the Holy Spirit is with us. So I'm saying something which, Lord knows how far that has sunk into you. So you say, yes this is me. I'm a third level on this basis. I say this is happening, so I say it is happening. And you put your teeth into that promise, as much as you put your teeth into Galatians 2 and any others. And you put your teeth into the sea, of course when it stirs you have to do so. I've stirred up to do it, did it. I never went back there in all these years since. The other one we use with it, it isn't the faith one exactly, but it fits the situation, is the one in Galatians, in Galatians 2, but not 2.20, where in verse 8, Paul had been commenting on God using Peter. And in the last area, last sentence in that verse, he says the same God who used Peter, the same law was, is mighty in me towards the Gentiles. Galatians 2.8. You see the emphasis is, we've been talking about him mighty in me. Now it's mighty in me towards other people. That's the difference. We've been talking about him mighty in me in Galatians 2.20. Strong, he's mighty in me. Now, mighty in me towards them. And the mightiness comes out by me to them. And they find the mightiness in them. That's the difference. So this is a third level statement, not a second level statement. Now that brings us up, but maybe you've had enough now, pick it up tomorrow. So it brings us up to the examination of what this priesthood and intercessional life actually means. I've only spoken so far about the recognition I am that. And it's basically, it's therefore this obsession you've got to be. And it's obsession which you've had through salvation in minor form. Obsession, other people should have the Christ I've got. And this is your total obsession. And it's been settled in you by certain detachments in which everything else is secondary, minor, in fact it's not even that, you only have God. It's just a form in which God expresses himself through you in love for this or love for that. You're really only having one person. And your knowledge and your attachment only keeps using that temporarily or so and so as a means of doing so and so. And it's headed up then, therefore that's this detachment level, headed up in the positive affirmation that I am now in God's purposes, one of those out of whom the spirit is flowing in rivers. I'm saying so because he says so. He implements it, you do not. The spirit is the rivers of course. Now that's a good deal to give you, one lot. It may be I'd better leave it and pick up tomorrow to go into detail now of what intercession, how intercession operates. We've got to know that. You see this life now has moved to union to intercession, to put it that term, or from union expressing intercession. And intercession comes as a major word. Now it may not mean much to some of you yet. Why do we use that word? What's its implications? How does it operate? So we've got to give us some more time to see now what is involved in being the intercessor so that I can say I am an intercessor. Now I see, I'm a life's intercessor. What that means is tremendous because that's your life, that becomes your life. So if your union is interpreted then as intercession. And union is a background word in which the foreground word becomes intercession. But you need to know why we use that word. There are other words in the Bible that is of course used on to priesthood and we're the priests, everyone lives to make intercession. But you need to know what we mean in its detail. I understand. But don't you think I should be better, I don't know if anyone wants to ask questions as far as we've gone now, make any comments as far as we've gone now? I think to move on to that now is a bit steep. We're free here, if you were free last night you'd be here this morning, can't you? And if there are comments you can give of the kind of thing God's done in you, can any of you say that? I'm hoping that, maybe just spontaneously this weekend, can't help saying I am that. Because when you go out to see you can't help saying it. Some people say that's just how I am. I am in God's grace a third level person, I'm cocked and done for. I have an obsession, I'm a permanent drunkard in the alcohol of the spirit. So maybe some of you could say something now about some of these things, do you want to? We've got a few minutes, do you want to? Yes? Loudly, ok. You are, that's right. Ok. She, after a year's time of being with me each week and you know learning this salvation onward, she was hungering after me and she was hearing him but I knew it really wasn't going in. Well she had a baby and we didn't see each other for about a year and after a year's time, you know the baby was like three months old and nobody ever answered morning, afternoon, evening at her home. Finally I called her mother's house and she said, Janice has been taken to psychiatric ward and so I got a hold of her the day she came home and she came to our house a couple days later for dinner and she told me all this anxiety and all this frustration, all these fears, you know most of them were fears about heaven and hell. She was raised Catholic, absolutely nasty, you know, didn't know anything. She knew that God hated her and she had been a bad person. So she told me about, you know this week in the hospital all she had really mainly done was sleep. She was so frustrated, she was so pinned back for about a month, she hadn't slept and she lived in fear and so the Lord told me this girl needs to know, she needs to go over again and ask please in the word that she is forgiven, that her home is heaven, that God is her father, she doesn't have to live in fear of, well certainly and all her anxiety and all her frustrations turned into, that it was all based on, I don't know I was so surprised at myself, I sat on the bed in my room and I said Janice we are going to start another bible study and you are going to come and she lived way across town, she said oh I just can't, you know the gas crisis, I have to do my business, I said you are sick, you are not sick in your body, you are sick in your spirit and you need to know what God says about you and I have never spoken with such a bold person for what they have to do and I said what did those doctors do for you, she said well I saw my psychiatrist every day for about 3 minutes and she said, I mean she was in our house for 3 hours and she must have popped about 7 pills, they are not here anymore, they are like here, the drugs have just pushed them down but she said I had every one of them that I went in that hospital with, she said I am going to see my psychiatrist in 2 months, so I said you are going to come here next Monday and you are going to come every Monday and she said well I will come and I will see, well God really blessed us and started opening her eyes and she was there, she said I don't care about gas, she said I was starting to get well and he just, there were 3 of us sometimes 4, Steve came one time, anyway, God really opened her eyes and I mean she went back to the psychiatrist in 2 months, he said, she said I said tell me just what happened, because I think psychiatrists, I said tell me just what happened, she said I walked in, sat down, he said how do you feel, she said I really feel a lot better, okay decrease your dosage to such and such, call me if you need me and that was it for about $200 and so that girl can now send her husband off to boot camp and know she will not cry, that girl can now face her neighbors and get angry at them and not feel like she is a horrible person, just the common thing, learning that her negative is God's agent for the positive to come through, that girl is a new creature through no help of any bodily, mental means, it was spirit and that was such a revelation to me when God showed me that and God has been showing me how sick, sick people are running to the wrong doctors and I just had to share that with you all because we are the doctors, get next to them and tell them the frustrations that you go through just like them and get there.