In this sermon, Norman Grubb discusses the concept of faith and how it operates in our daily lives. He explains that faith is the inner understanding and relationship we have with things, which then leads to outward actions. Grubb emphasizes that as believers, we have the privilege of belonging to the nature of the Spirit, rather than the fragmented nature of material things. He also addresses the question of where God is in the midst of suffering and evil, highlighting that understanding our identity in Christ allows us to be vessels through which God can love and reach out to the world.

Week 10, Program 1. This is David Ord with today's Union Life broadcast. Many of you have read the book Rhys Howell Intercessor and it was written by Norman Grubb and Norman Grubb has been on our program now over the past few weeks in a series of broadcasts on Who Am I? and we're presently considering together why we are who we are in Christ and how he is expressing his purposes and moving out into the world through us and Norman is going to pick up where we left off in the last program. We're on this station five days a week. Be sure to catch all the programs in this series on Who Am I? Norman? We're saying together that the Bible through the Spirit makes quite plain that there are three grades or stages in our living relationship with our Lord Jesus Christ, two of which we thoroughly exist in and the third we're touching on now. The first was our relationship to him in salvation by grace and the second was our relationship to him when we find the whole purpose is that he lives his life again in us, that we become his dwelling place and we operate as he and the third one is the sole purpose in him being himself is to be himself and he himself is another lover and therefore if you are a born-again person you are all that you can't help because the born-again means the spirit of other loves going to operate in you and cause you to begin to love God and love Jesus and what other people know about him so you've got to be another lover but we've had to go through certain stages to find out in full fact the full meaning of God's purposes in our creation and re-creation, the purposes that he can himself dwell in us and we can be the means by which he re-expresses himself to the universe so that's taken our time therefore we haven't been able to be occupied too much in fact the real meaning is that he's another lover by us and we now moved on to the third level which the Bible speaks about as the fatherhood level because fathers exist for the fulfillment of their purposes in life, their family and so on from themselves and that we've been considering how that means that the spirit leads us on to a third settlement from reconciliation in Christ to the union in Christ to cooperation with Christ as his means of outgoing to the world and that this means for us a third grade of recognition, a third crisis of faith when we accept the fact that there's no other meaning to life except that we're part of God, a part of him for others we're co-operators called saviors, we've moved over from the dependent level to the cooperating level. Paul speaks about it in his great witty treatise for literature where he said I started by seeing that selflessness of my self-loving self compared first of all to Satan and self-giving self in his martyrdom and then to hear the voice of love from heaven saying that that same saviour whom he was perfectly loved him that broke Paul back and brought him to find that the true self of the universe which is God's love self in place of his own health self which is really the spirit of Satan in him so he had that's why he's redeemed then he moved on to find this person came to be himself and then live his life expressing himself through Paul not just redeeming Paul from the consequences of his sins but Paul himself had become a manifestation of God himself so it tells how he went through the period when he found this same person that he had to find the exclusive knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord the total knowledge of Christ the Lord living in him and for that he said I suffer the loss of all things I sacrifice the loss of all things that he may be the total owner that's the one we speak of in the second level where he took over but he said that did cost him something that he suffered I suffer the loss of all things that he may have the total ownership he then had the partial love of things of time and sense and the third level you've so lost the sense of loving things of time and sense that they actually are repulsive to you and then Paul went on to say now these things that it cost me to lose he said it will cost me to keep he said I now come to the done you it's affected to him so the idea of holding on to things of time and sense or even holding on to the people of love of people is the meaning of life it's affected to me because I'm here to be a person like Christ he said now I'm here to win Christ winning isn't depending on Christ's salvation it's winning cooperation being a being his friend and fellow and and co with him so he said now I have my ambition to be a co-Christ with him so he said I can't everything else affected to me because that's his privilege but to be a co- with Christ means entering into the being the kind of person Christ is not for himself but for others and he found that meant he must live by this new power of resurrection live in this world another world of persons able to operate the powers of the spirit as Jesus did and be a co-Christ in fellowship of suffering not fellowship in joy and fellowship in peace that he would be a co-sufferer with Christ the world may get the gospel which Paul was even the point of death so that I may said being supposed to say death I may lay my life down that the world may get the gospel and this is the prize of the high callings which Paul dedicates and of course he dies by execution on that level in Rome so here's an example of a man who moved from the first stages of Christ as redeemer and Christ as indweller into being a co-saviour with Christ for others because that's what we're talking about so we're up the line here there's a third crisis so you settle down count the cross say yes by God's grace as the spirit takes hold of me I choose that I have the privilege of being a co-priest a co-saviour co-worker co-operator with Christ for the world and I believe I recognize that means that I have no more claims on myself no more questions why do I have this how do I have that because my life is entirely related to purposes God has which is fulfilling is outgoing saving purposes by me now in order that we might say it's a negative point of view and it's a positive point of view so understand then what he says he is he is in us when we are in that relationship when he calls us to believe he is what he says he is in us now he called us to believe that he was in us and saved us from our sins and then he died for us then he called us to recognize he's a person lives his new life quality of life in us now now the third recognition is to recognize this person is outgoing reverse now that again is a challenge we're looking at ourselves we don't look like it the whole life you sleep with yourself what you do with you is the person in you so in this the third statement we use a great deal on this level when he is in the priest in the tabernacle called other people come and think of him if you think of me you'll never hear it again remember in John chapter 7 then he turns on to just go on from there he says if having drunk with me now if you believe on me out of you as the inmost part which may mean out of your belly will flow rivers out will flow rivers of living water and John explained he said will flow because at that time the Holy Ghost hadn't come as he came as Pentecost because the atonement had neutral fuel and so Jesus had to say will flow we say are flowing now here's the third one in each case don't the only the only basis to the relationship is my free acceptance what he is in me what he do with me becoming something there's a salvation salvation by faith i accept the fact he is my holy sacrifice then he confirmed to me he saved me then i accept the fact that he he's replaced satan in me as christ in me i accept that by faith he confirms me he now operates in me as me in each case it's only done by my faith which means i simply accept the fact he says it's a fact i move in fact that's me that's me now he says he's a it's a it's a uh uh uh who so believes on me who if you believe in me out of me out of you for faith so didn't you now this is a very high spot we move when this has become our set objective that he should fulfill his sentence to us it's to be rivers in the water well now a natural man can't say that if you look back again there's food itself which we tend to go back to of course you can't be there but self is nothing to do with self the agency it's the vessel isn't it it's the what innocent we know what they say again and again don't do with what the self is so don't turn back and say i'm not like that but say he said in me he is outflowing rivers and under the crutch and that's not the point i say christ you are in me holy spirit you are me what you say you are so i'm taking you are not just the incoming spirit who's established me in christ the outgoing spirit which other people will find me it doesn't look possible that's not the point you're moving now into this realm of uh of uh what it is you use the faith in the impossible because you didn't need it's never really taking this evening of sabbath evening until the third one so we're again saying it is a uh uh a crisis of nature of faith i say it is apotheosis which is beyond my reach but it's faith in the word of god as a fact if i would accept it as a fact so again it's only accepting the same christ the same holy spirit as i accepted him in his redeeming grace i said to him in the in the unification unification reality so i accept him now as the outgoing person so we're saying there is a second there's another crisis of faith here in each case you operate by the commitment of self and then in the faith then the crisis of faith is you're doing that twice so here's the various solemn and wonderful things i did that years ago which would say i take this as the third basis of living first we've already done the first two here's the third basis living you are what you say by me liberty living water throwing up out from me um in each case the battle state as we know as we go on is against appearances so there you've got to go against the page you say how's that gonna be that's not your point don't do what you are the point is the person near you does it and i remember my own little instance where i first told this as a younger man i caught the vision i wanted it to be one one be one god could use i saw this promise i listened to it i said the bible says so well i laughed i said river the thing was rather me so i made a kind of bargain i did believe i said all i thought i takes your word you say if i believe i'll tell i said it was like a bargain at least be a little trickle of muddy water anyhow i i i compiled it but i did believe it well the more money than muddy water may have come out since then but the point is i believed it would you like to have the rivers of living water flowing out of you we'll continue listening in this series of broadcasts on who am i which norman grubb is sharing with us his experiences over many years in mittenfield and how christ now is operating by us once we know who we are in him what our inheritance is in him that he is reaching out to his world and loving through us now we want to send you union life magazine there's no charge for it a group of people who want to share what they have found to be their reality their total real life in christ have got together to make this magazine possible no price no request for money union life magazine is bi-monthly it has a variety of articles which will reach right down to where you are articles about the deal with situations such as when you can't cope in life articles which deal with the meaning and purpose of life and why men suffer and what is the reason for evil in the world there are all kinds of articles we know you'll enjoy it right for union life magazine now the address is 4606 lamar avenue memphis tennessee 38118 again that's 4606 lamar avenue l-a-m-a-r lamar avenue memphis tennessee 38118 or call area code 901-795-0121 that's 901-795-0121 until next time this is david old program two this is david old with today's union life broadcast welcoming once again norman grubb who's been taking a series in the past few weeks here for us on who we are in christ we're talking now about the commissioned intercessory life the rivers of living water so many christians feel in their lives that they're dry that they they are empty that they don't know the full the fullness of christ in them they don't know this fulfilled life that is pouring out for others but jesus said that if we believe on him out of our inner being would flow rivers of living water well how is it possible norman grubb a missionary for many years with worldwide evangelization crusade the son-in-law of c.t. sturd who wrote the book c.t. sturd cricketer and pioneer and who wrote reese howell's intercessor is sharing with us the keys to really understanding this life which christ lived by us expressing his love in the world today now on this third level we are uh which we speak about the space flowing through us let me get it clear he doesn't you can't learn continuity flowing through you until you first of all know the certain fix he's throwing in you so you don't get thirsty again the inner reality that whether one of what like springing up unto everlasting life like an artesian world that settled that is the permanent fact that christ is the permanent reality in me no we leave that behind out of that permanent reality we then can move on to that same person showing rivers out from us that's what we that's the third level of uh faith recognition which becomes to us a faith consciousness that that is something which is a fact about us now the the main fact to remember is this is a state in action now we go into action what we talked about so far it has its action for instance if christ has replaced you it comes out in your daily habits of course your daily life is action in the kitchen in the in the business house in the home or in the field whatever it is christ is in action in your daily life therefore already christ is in action by on that personal level we're now talking about the way in which christ the spirit of god comes in action out by you comes in action so we're talking on the actual level not a theory level now in what ways does the spirit uh move into action by you so that you are the one in action yet it's really the spirit in action by you and uh the uh the uh revelation given us which we can find in the scripture on on that level is uh spirit this person the person of the holy spirit through comes out on the level of what i might call spirit action and body action by my spirit the holy spirit offering my mind the holy spirit the offering by my spirit or my body those are two ways which he comes out into into utter action which are forms of the rivers of living water flowing out uh in reaching whatever purposes are in view so we have a little a look at those two um if i am one uh by whom now the spirit is playing out he flows out into action and the action is expressed by uh by my relationship to my spirit and my relationship to my body the spirit in a sense it's the most important because it's universal but therefore supremely important because the spirit is a means by which i move about my faith it's a bible talks about the spirit of faith the second principle having the spirit of faith in other words we said all along we come back on this main issue the way in which a person always operates is from within because i'm a spirit person and operating from within means that uh i i uh i i come to a condition in which i put myself into something we repeat that again generally speaking faith is something is available to me something is is uh is is uh i can't remember the word i use there thank you it's available to me it's desirable to me i say i'll take that i'll go there now we move to action faith always action is spirit action because my going there didn't mean i went by my calm or my feet it meant inside that i'll go and that motivated my me to take my car or my feet and go well i say i eat food that isn't done by my hands or my mouth it's on inside i'll eat and then i interpret that eating by my hands and my and my tongue and then i i experience the food uh say for some substance so that we get all clear all life is spirit action and all spirit action means my freedom to uh uh see a situation and uh be in there where something is we say available and desirable available to me desirable to me and i'm moving i'll take that i'll go there i'll do that that's spirit action now we have to understand that the tremendously unspeakable privilege into which we're born we now belong to the the nature of the spirit we do not belong to the nature of matter it's a matter's minute fragmentary see it's a product of the fall the fall made us self-loving self satan and that means we made the things which was bits and pieces i must have this i must have that that fragmented the world self-love fragment i must have this and i and you won't have that and so on so the whole world's fragmented because he moved on to the the level which is made material things just bits and pieces to us now the other street of self-giving love doesn't fragment it keeps things in whole because we are for everything which is everything for us and we move into the into the god's universe which is the complete universe let's take our part in its completion so we're moving into the whole it's not frag it's not into a fragmental fragmentary consciousness now this is the the the kingdom of of god we've moved into so a centenary body can't see that kingdom it's the kingdom of the universal see the door now i now am joined to him more than a family member i'm a part of him and i'm like a vine and branch i'm one with you i'm he in a sense who is the universal all the sources all the things which are me a little bit of fragments are universal in him all power all everything so it all come out into him in these outer forms that they they they they come out from him who's the original source of spirit and light and love which has come out even as we say science says everything comes from light but the bible says god is light he's a person he's come out in in the forms of light through sun and moon and the electrical powers out of which come into being the outer expressions of this one person who is the all now we're to understand therefore we're now talking about ourselves operating by this this faith this faith faculty uh on the universal level in the temple level i'll go there i take my car and go i'll can i put my hand and take it now we're living as a as a as a as an agency by which the universal spirit operates through me and as i move into this operation he'll move out and he'll do the things now so it isn't i'll go here then my my car goes me uh well i'm saying something in this level the holy spirit is a car uh when i say i take something in uh in the other i think use my hand in this level he's the hand that takes it so i'm talking on an altogether new level it's the same level it's a new birth you took the risen jesus and back came the risen jesus isn't that the time of the faith at all he came back to you as a conquer as a as a conscious person in your new new dimension so the risen jesus to him you're now living fellowship with this risen jesus you go further and risen jesus comes to live in you and so you've begun to realize this the the operation of the faith on a spirit level where it reduces reduces the spirit consciousness is to it's cautious to you uh in christ in you and that affects your habits when we are born again you said before spirits now come to jesus or habits became a kind of loving habit an honest habit you become a new kind of person so uh it's the what you're taking comes out in in in physical forms and uh operations activities so now we're to look together in this larger sense in which we move into this faith action faith action being now moving into faith uh on the level of of uh what god is doing uh or what god confronts us with something he would do uh and his and with me the sub-ages by which we're moving in the case say that's what you're doing god just the same as on the on earth we're confronted with food then we say i'll take the food we move into what's available to us now we're to know how how to move into things which are available to us not on the level of material which we can which we can handle ourselves but on levels immaterial like on people and it's all situations are now which are beyond our handling like we see jesus did on earth now uh to be able to do that uh steadily and continuously it has to start by another revolutionary understanding recognition uh by which by which our our consciousness can be stretched to see what we already have really said that this one person is in everything now we've not fighted that through the fall because he'd become grabbers and getters we think just things we have not fighted those things are only for him only this is this person expressed in atomic forms only forms that's why the bible says by we said before jesus christ was created by him all things stand together what is the power which holds atoms together by him he's the power right in in the atomic situation because everything is a form of him now this is a further stretch of our understanding um we've been accustomed to seeing god as personal and become personal with us now it's a stretch of that same god if he's everything in everybody when you think the bible says every human being has that being in god also that's act 17 not the redeemed everybody he's made in one god on earth uh to find out that they don't are not part of god but in him they have their being so every human being is in the being of god doesn't know it as free persons we've we've lost in our freedom that contact with god because we got captured by the false spirit but it remains the fact we're in that being so now we're beginning to see something which is a stretch of understanding maybe a settle into everything you see is a form of god it may be a misused form but it's a form of god every creature everything made is a he come in creature form or mineral form or or atomic form or person form or people form everything that's a wide stretch to be able to see everything is a form of this perfect being who reproduces in these ways but in course of this reproduction uh there's been a disturbing element come as a misuse of things that's where the fall came in now the important uh reality has to come to the point is only a misuse of parts of god's perfection i've got to begin to everything is basically perfect and the and the satan's misuse and so says it's really misused right thing for wrong purposes we're getting into a tremendously interesting subject now in this series of broadcasts on who we are in christ and it is the understanding of the purpose for evil why does evil exist and what is god doing about it now we have a brand new booklet which we want to offer you it's about the book of job this is a tremendous book in the bible it has a great deal of lessons for us as christians that we can benefit from we want you to request the book just ask for the booklet about job and if you write to 4606 lamar avenue memphis tennessee 38118 we'd be glad to send it to you mention the booklet about job 4606 lamar avenue memphis tennessee 38118 or you can call area code 901 795-0121 901-795-0121 mention the booklet about job we're on this station five days a week at the same time be sure to tune in until tomorrow this is david ord program three this is david ord with today's union life broadcast in the midst of all of the suffering the evil the horror that exists in this world where is god probably there's no more crucial question that we can ask because behind the answer that question lies the answer to the whole meaning of life now to help us answer it we have in the series of broadcasts which we're in at the moment on who we are in christ norman grubb norman was a missionary with a worldwide evangelization crusade for many years norman is now 85 years of age and he's sharing with us some of his experiences of how he has come to see how god is working in all that is happening in this world today well we've seen this basic fact that everything in our human lives is operated by what the bible calls faith which means it proceeds from our inner understanding of things and our relationships to things as a consequence of that understanding all life consists of i understand here's something available to me food or something uh i understand it's desirable to me inwardly that inwardly i say i'll take that food and then outwardly as a product of the out of the inner i take the food and experience the food so all life consists of what we call the spirit level my inner inner spirit uh how i see a thing and therefore how i how i uh in my freedom i relate myself to a thing not just react in how i relate myself to it except to reject whatever it may be all life is that now the uh we've seen all along in the in the history of the human race that uh consciousness is only conscious because there are alternatives we only assume because there are opposites it can be this or that here or there yes or no black or white and so on it's opposite we have to sort out the opposite and handle and respond to them accordingly and so in order to be conscious operating humans we have to face the opposite all through life now we saw from the beginning the supreme opposite we have to face is the kind of person i can be as a person that the two options i can be the person geared to be a self-getting self-seeking self-gratifying person or be a person who's a self-giving person i can be a person for self a person for others and we see how that's how how god put us in the beginning under this first first creature in universe satan who's chosen to be a person for self and he's liberally put us under his his temptation and responded that we might learn the wrongness of the way of being humans controlled by a self for self and in which we operate on that level of having discovered that when jesus christ came in reverse so we can become in jesus christ a person for others now evil is this this this uh misuse of god's we take god's perfection to be a product of self-giving love god is love he could after he can only produce perfection he can't do any but everything for his perfect purpose perfect conditions so the whole world is in harmony we only have to say for instance uh mathematics to know that uh whatever's happened the world doesn't change mathematics it's a harmonious means of discovering certain and operating on certain levels and all science operates on that you couldn't go to the moon unless you'd be quite sure that your scientific calculations were accurate there's a perfection there so we already see the whole area as much the whole the whole universe operates and the uh um uh um uh conditions within that they all operate by these unchanging laws on certain levels within our human reach those laws have been changed uh and we've we've we've instead of uh operating the world for the blessing of my brother which is what god does we've operated my own blessing and i've brought in these this this discourse that's what evil is evil is not nothing nothing is evil paul said i'm saying nothing is unclean in itself nothing's unclean he said to the pure all things are pure it's only to the unbelieving something to defile there's no such thing as the family little thing therefore no such thing as the family in the actual human tax of his appetite nothing the defilement is a spirit using it wrongly certainly using it for right harmony fulfillment service it's being used for selfishness i grab that and fight you to keep it so all this the evil is this this misuse of him which is brought in fears and hates and wars and sins and tragedies and disturbances which have even disturbed disturbed the the natural creation because god even says he's that he that he subjected the natural creation to disturbed conditions because you don't learn harmony except to disturb it so even natural creation has to go through a disturbance where we say things are very beautiful but there's corruption and um man there's a every creature reddened tooth and claw and all that kind of thing there's a purpose there because when there's been uh the area of disturbance has been then we're knowing the harmony which you only know harmony because it falls out it's opposite which is disharmony so here we have the disharmony which is coming to the world it didn't come to the world from god it comes from our freedom but you can't have operating people if they are free like uh you can't develop the world by uh uh for instance the ant family they don't develop they've done marvelous things in their ant world they can't develop it the bee family i don't develop it they have a limited consciousness there are three people who can make new type of things we're marvellous look what happens in this world many of our foreign industries look at the products marvellous continuing adaptation to things we're free and freedom does mean therefore we we're free to make these choices and handle the alternatives and they had to come in first of all on satan's level then up the the possibility that we would we would move into this opposite choice instead of the expression of god self for others the expression of satan self for self we see what happens so evil doesn't come from god it comes from our freedom which he had he's responsible for the freedom because he's responsible for making people a person could be nothing else but free he couldn't make person except he's free as we said the beginning he himself speaks he said he can't lie we described that in an earlier talk which means god has turned down his own possibility alive as a self a self-seeker it turned out the point that he might have been in the world yet a self-seeker of his own interest which is he can't lie means god fixed himself as a self-giver he's fixed himself in those alternatives and the self self-getting alternatives is far enough that self-giving alternatives so self is given not self for self but self rather that's god that produces a harmony now we've reversed that through faith and we become not self to others but self for self out of that come all this harmony therefore in that sense it's come out of the freedom god had to give or couldn't have given people but he's not directly responsible for it's by-product in misuse of freedom the by-product has come from our misuse and so here we've got all the instructions in the world now if you go back to the origins again you know i said always come out of perfect god of perfect love and he meant us to go through these tragic things because the the end of it is that by the by uh having been disillusioned with the opposite we'd be conditioned to to move into the into the true harmony through jesus christ the last adam coming in redeeming us we couldn't move into that let's be disillusioned with this with the negative so there is a negative now the the point is is because a perfect god of perfect love is behind every purpose he means us to have and learn our lessons by this misuse he's not responsible for misuse he's responsible for freedom and misuse freedom produces misuse but because he's got he says yes you misuse it but i i bless you to the misuse i turn your misuse into a new opportunity of finding my grace now that's the key he says yes you will go into a misuse and you'll you'll go into a mess and so on uh i'm there through jesus christ to to fulfill these purposes of grace by which i i can i can turn your mess into a new opportunity of proving my grace and truth and you find my grace to come out of the very situation which is your mess it's in a sense my mess because it's being a it's misusing part of me i don't see the part of him we're misusing now i i as you move in my face i i you see how i turn i bring out some new record manifestation of my certain power and love and redemption in some way so that's the the background uh reason why we say very strongly we say god means evil we don't say god sits by and permits it because that would be a weakness if god couldn't help him just happens means it why because he means people to have the full promise of their peoplehood and their personhood if our person is going wrong in things if our person is involved in misuse of things misuse of bodies misuse of everything he means us to have the products of that misuse there are um there are very famous bible evidences of that which we commonly use this to to prove it of course the the answer to the supreme evidence was when jesus christ was confronted with the the um purposes of satan to destroy him by crucifixion and he saw satan coming in to uh he he was disillusioned because he he hoped jesus christ would become a king on the throne he'd be participating in that kind of thing but he thought it was just a um a a reject and uh under threat he turned the to become the betrayer of him so jesus saw satan using using uh uh dutif to betray him what did jesus say at the top of the table he says uh to the type of i'm going to leave after this he says the prince of this world satan there's a call of misuse uh uh the prince of earth come he comes through judas going to betray him he has nothing in me what's that mean he means he didn't see uh he didn't see satan operating on a negative level uh how do we know because a few hours later when he's about to be arrested he'd been to get seminary and they came to arrest him uh and if anybody is seeing evil things as evil of course you're putting it to serve you're going to be arrested that's when peter came in and struck the high priest cut his ear off and jesus put the ear back and reacts not to do that they said peter stop using that sword you're going to have another kind of sword another sort of love he said this a cup my father has given me shall i drink it in other words he saw satan doing satan's work but it's god's purpose god means it because by the crucifixion of jesus it says the story jesus he destroyed himself it's satan his power got destroyed from across them and and they were we got to leave i know that this is going to be quite mind-blowing for many of those who have believed that all of the evil in the world is something that god just permits and to say that god means it to be and is using it for a good purpose is way beyond what many of us have thought but the bereans in act 17 heard paul say some pretty strange things and they didn't cut him off they heard him out and they checked it in the scriptures now we want to offer you a new booklet it's on the book of job this booklet is sent free of charge it explains how god is using evil has a purpose for it and is bringing good out of it it's not just permissively in existence god means it to be now this booklet's available to you if you write to 4606 lamar avenue memphis tennessee 38118 that's 4606 lamar avenue memphis tennessee 38118 or you can call area code 901-795-0121 that's 901-795-0121 just ask for the little booklet about job until next time we're on this station daily five days a week at the same time this is david orr program four this is david orr introducing norman grubb with our series of broadcasts on who we are in christ now we're considering at the present time the whole question of what is the purpose of evil in a world of horrendous evil with the starvation that we see with the crime with the violence with all of the problems of humanity where is god in all of this the man who's helping us answer it is norman grubb who has written the book who am i and i'm going to ask him if he'll pick right up now with this whole question of whether god has a permissive will or whether god is purposing the evil that exists in the world today when we're saying uh what governs me is the way i see a thing that's all because i'm an inner person i i respond the way i see a thing uh i put my faith in the thing according to how i see it and then out of my faith will come my action which follows my faith so everything in life depends on how i as an inner person not with my outer eye but inner eye seeing things to be now uh um what we're saying is that uh um when we've moved in in as long as we're talking about uh into our union with god dwelling us in in dwelling us we move on beyond to see a god a universal god out of whom the whole universe came who purposed universe brought into being and therefore the whole universe in all its forms uh for the minutest of the greatest people and things are products of this person come into different wonderful forms but because uh what manages the world is persons himself as the person a person who can develop things that does mean we have to be persons who have consciousness and consciousness must always be conscious opposites relating opposites black and white uh soft and hard yes and no and so on and that brought this this this this into the world that there is a possible opposite um which makes um consciousness a an operable fact um and the the inner opposite the is the kind of person i am the the major opposite therefore as a person i can be alternative i can be a person who is a self for myself or i can be a person who's set for others that's what god is god's the self for others and for the whole world kind of a harmony everything we could see it as we look into things as a product of a harmonious deity because everything's moved into it it's the perfect place and perfect operation in life now he has persons uh operating for himself now a person can only develop things if he's as god a conscious person in a sense a dog or cat or an ant or a mineral isn't so we have had to been confronted with opposites and we've had to move into the into the realm of the opposites and uh find that as a human i can be one or the other of those two and i've started life under the control of the the opposite to god which is a the the satanic spirit of self-getting self out of that come all all disharmony a person who's misused his self for self god uses self for everything else for his perfect purposes satan calls us use self for self out of that come all our discords and disharmonies so evil isn't a thing in in the basis of the universe at all it's a misuse of the universe so so paul says everything nothing's god's kingdom itself everything's good uh to the pure all things are pure all that's wrong is a misuse misuse isn't in the things it's in the persons who misuse them so the only evil is in person it's not in things that's why the first evil is the evil person this created person says i'll be for myself so the satanic person god is the opposite he's a harmonious person i'll be for others that's what the two came into being we've had to go through each creation of the two uh so we can be disillusioned with the one and the move through in christ or the other so we are we're now in a world in which we ourselves have begun to move in with the god of harmony god of self-giving love but we're in a world which is full of these discords now uh uh the uh the key to the right attitude uh is when i when i've come into my into union with god i begin to see things as god sees them and god sees everything as perfect although they're temporary misuses it misuses only temporary to god the perfection is the permanency and this was how um we saw we've just said jesus saw life um so when the disharmony came in which they were attacking jesus because he was the apostle the he was a the the the expression of love they attacked him uh he didn't take the attack uh as um saying it disturbed he says that god will use use this this this negative attack for um saving purposes so we saw how he used uh satan at the cross he said the cup my father's given me because um as i as i die on behalf of mankind in this old way of life in the resurrection new life will come into being so i have to spread that down all the way along you see the comment that peter made in the first speech after pentecost about this crucifixion he said to these crowds at pentecost who come around him he said uh you people he had this you people he talked about this this jesus evangelism they crucified that you people edited through determined counsel and foreknowledge of god by wicked hands crucified slain him he said god determined and counseled the jews slain that's a very strange thing to happen but you understand that when you see that god determines that that as discussed in the previous talk uh the misuse is a part of our freedom and we have to be free to be real people and so we misuse our freedom uh for um these discordant purposes now god has everything perfectly in hand so he says well i i determine that you do misuse you be yourself you have the product of your freedom and so you misuse your freedom i pick up your misuse and i turn it into righteous and so i'll take the freedom by which through your freedom through satan you crucify my son and i'll make that bring bring out a new new dimension of resurrection in which people in in in in jesus christ can be delivered from the power of satan and and enter into this newness of life into which we've entered and they added the same word in the first prayer a little later on when they're being persecuted in jerusalem they gather together when they prayed this they said uh quite the speaking to god for the truth against thy holy child jesus both herod and potter's pilot with the people of israel and the gentiles are gathered together forward to whatsoever thy hand that thou canst determine before to be done god determined evil no god determined freedom not to have an evil freedom was a product of misuse of freedom evil was a product of misuse of freedom he determined freedom i won't touch freedom we know he can't touch him communism tries to trust him look at it you touch freedom against slavery so god himself can't touch freedom or he makes slaves he must have voluntary uh servants not not not false servants so i don't touch freedom out of your freedom i've determined what you do i'll turn that crucifixion into a way redemption for those who are in the power of satan in the and in the in the new birth they enter into the new life in christ and the so the the bible is built on that fact that god's always using what appears evil uh to bring redemption princess israel become continually idolatrous they've lost the sense of a single god now they need to have a renewal of the sense of a single god to prepare for jesus coming who then pointed to the real meaning of the single god so they got so idolatrous that he he purposed in their freedom they'd have the consequences which they'd come under the dominion of these of these these heathen nations because they'd lost their sense of trusting the power of god and so nebuchadnezzar comes along then he destroys jerusalem and jeremiah says god says nebuchadnezzar is my servant but he came destroyed jerusalem stole the temple of messiah made slaves of the people how could that be god they people could see they they they put jeremiah in a mud hole and tried to kill him for what he said that he said god said jerusalem said nebuchadnezzar is god's servant why because by uh uh in their freedom uh uh nebuchadnezzar enslaving israel that cleaned out idolatry and israel was never idolatrous again never had another god again from that time onwards they always believed in one god they they got that right and so all the way through history you'll find that god's using the the evil things for good purposes the very supreme illustration everybody uses is joseph when he had the promise and the revelation that he was to be a man blessed of god and to be a blesser and benefactor his own parents even his own people they couldn't take that of course and they got jealous of him for different reasons sold him as a slave they tried to kill him but they'd sold him a slave uh and then in his slavery because he was because he was a servant of god he acted so well that the the head of the household gave him charge potiphar and then he acted rightly but potiphar's wife tempted him and he wouldn't he wouldn't respond to potiphar's wife so she falsely accused him as if he was a the sinner and they put him in prison he had 14 years in prison uh out of that prison it brought him within touch of pharaoh because pharaoh had his own butler and baker in prison and joseph was able to interpret their dreams for them uh and the the uh the the the baker was was executed but the butler remained and three years after when pharaoh had dreams he couldn't understand butler said oh i know a person who can a prisoner of your in your jails got him out and he because he had this he walked with god so he he had the gift of interpretation different gifts he had interpretation he could interpret dreams most of us couldn't he could tell me the oh pharaoh said you're the man and you say they're going to be seven years rich plenty in seven years family i'll put you in charge and you can store up the people so when the famine comes there's food i'm to get my prime minister and we know what happened and then when the family did come and uh the his own brethren came back to get food uh and he hid the fact from them um i needn't go into all the process because he very delicately wanted him to understand they had done wrong so they went through certain process we can go until they could prepare to know they had done wrong and then they never forgot it thank god they didn't forgot it god used that evil to convict him of sin god usually gives you sin the fact they tried to sell joseph before bought them they were guilty men where they should be god's men that's the very thing about it and then in the end joseph revealed himself to them uh uh and uh um they brought the family into egypt and they remember when he's going to die and they're still a bit concerned could he really forgive them and he said oh that's all right he says uh you meant it for evil god meant it for good so joseph shows what god meant them to save and slay meant part of his wife to lie about him meant to be in prison made everything out of which bought god's purposes for redemption in the world in the jews coming back we want you to have the new booklet we have on the story of job just write for the booklet about job and we'll send it to you if you write to 4606 lamar avenue that's l-a-m-a-r memphis tennessee 38118 4606 lamar avenue memphis tennessee 38118 or you can call area code 901-795-0121 that's 901-795-0121 and request the booklet about job it explains god's purposes for evil what god is doing with evil and how he is bringing good out of it now it's going to be a shocking booklet for some of you but in acts the 17th chapter the bereans heard paul out when he made some shocking statements and they searched the scriptures daily whether these things are so we're asking you to do the same we're challenging you to write for the booklet and check us out in the scriptures for yourself the booklet on job 4606 lamar avenue memphis tennessee 38118 until next time this is david ord program five this is david ord introducing norman grubb in our present series of broadcasts in which we're understanding god's whole purpose in the universe what he is doing with his creation and how we fit into that as new persons created in christ jesus what is god doing with evil for example we're presently considering the story of joseph and how god meant the things that happened to him for a good purpose here's norman grubb the point we're making is joseph said god meant it now that doesn't mean god's responsible it came out of the fallen spirit of satan in the brethren who got jealous of of uh joseph and they sold him as a slave and the fallen spirit of satan in potter's wife which made him lyingly accused joseph so god was not responsible for the evil things but it he had to have them because we can't be too free and true unless we free people and we must have the freedom what we so we reap because i can't touch your freedom and if you've been caught up the wrong way and i'm going the wrong way in your freedom then i'll i'll use you and your freedom i'll turn the evil thing you're doing into into into uh into good purposes um so we don't get uh you you will never get a wholeness in your attitude your faith attitude in life why do you see two parts of the operation why see there's god here and there's evil there and they're two separate i'll tell you you see able is not didn't come from god he came from our freedom because we have to be free people and god therefore meant us we must have the products of our freedom and we must have the products of our of our evil but because he's a perfect god with all his beings he's sent his son to redeem the world so i'll be here to turn that that that that evil into a good purpose and i'll operate it by your faith as you're able to see see that that's how i'm operating another illustration of that same kind of base striking was this was when jesus stood before pilot now pilot was disturbed because his wife had warned him my dream not to touch that righteous man pilot was disturbed so he called jesus back to the judgment hall and you read it he says don't you know pilot said jesus uh i have power to crucify you or release you your jesus order you have no power except it be given you from above but we'd say from beneath we say the power by which satan the pilot would crucify you didn't come to jesus from god he came to satan jesus didn't say so said you have no power this it's god give you power to crucify me well that's a statement because he because god would uh satan would use his so-called power supposed to be power to influence pilot to crucify him god say yes that but it's my power i will use that to save the world i'm going to turn that crucifixion that decision pilot will save the world if pilot doesn't send jesus to the cross there'll be no salvation so you get your power it's my power so it's a wonderful thing to begin to find all the things that happen whatever they look like god's power even if it should be misused power god says i'll make it perfect purpose see what he says about pharaoh now pharaoh wouldn't turn pharaoh and moses he came pretty near it moses tried to persuade pharaoh to listen to god and obey god let the people he wouldn't do it he came pretty near it pretty near it never did it finally in that case he wouldn't do it i presume we must take the person who just rejected god and uh now god's power uh operated through pharaoh against pharaoh as it were with the miracle with the with the uh the um plagues and finally with the opening of the red sea and the miracle of the red sea the rescue of the children of israel march the march into canaan uh and the drowning of the pharaoh's charity in the when the sea returned his place again what's the bible says the bible says this for the scripture set under pharaoh even for this same purpose have i raised thee up and i might show my power in thee and that my name might be desired and declared throughout all his power in pharaoh so we say titanic power he says that's my power which satan in in pharaoh reversed to reject moses i use that power to show my deliverance through moses in this case i perhaps had to destroy pharaoh because he's a case who wouldn't take it there's always a power of god now that's a tremendous revolution my outlook i have to include even things like death remember we've got to change our view death isn't a body this is where you go leave the future with god don't say oh horrible that kid died that's my my own desire my missionary we laid our first little child a year old in africa we were 500 miles by foot from a doctor a precious little boy fit we gradually wilted away and uh we buried him the first white baby to be buried in that part of africa brought about a wonderful conversion of a young fellow named pataki as a consequence of that but uh what's death death isn't the physical we're eternal persons and we can trust god when people die our god hands on the other side don't fuss about death get around being a death fosser a believer there's a detail often it's better we better die quick and get to a better place so we're so silly we make a big fuss about death that's a human hurt but you see we uh hurt is not a thing it's how you see it now all these disasters it's not the disaster hurt isn't basically famine it isn't basically being imprisoned by russia it isn't basically it's how i take it you see if i can take like some of these men if i'm in prison or like charles colston uh the nixon's man when he went to prison found jesus his prison became his heaven oh he said never i i can i can love and help my fellow prisoners and give them the peace prison became a heaven your hell is never outside the circumstances how you take it now we see if therefore i can begin to take everything from god my prison my potipa's wife lying to me my uh my disaster and say it's horrible god nothing's horrible with you it looks horrible i will not go by the appearance of power it's always your part you meant it well that tickles saying when little kids have been drowned or something you meant it and the first consequence is yourself while you fight you know darkness you know disturbance and anger and resentment and a question of god when you say god's well i've got i have a piece i can't understand you it's queer you're queer but i understand it in your peace god's always good he's always right so now we begin to find that that the harmony of life is from inside that nothing has you from outside nothing ever does life is how i see it how do we see the importance of my faith attitude which means the way i see a thing being i see everything is coming perfect from god and that takes some doing and that's all that then life consists really in us knowing how to reverse attitudes we all of us have home attitudes situations people things oh i can't stand that and that person's impossible and uh and so and so and uh that produces a negative i show the negative i don't like that i become condemning i make the thing worse by the attitudes producing death by magnitude supposing i say god i don't like that but for the time being you meant that if it's a person doing rotten things you've made them too rotten you should show them they're rotten they've got to learn their misery because at the beginning god said to adam and eve you your sorrow will teach you your sorrows your misery your sorrows in life will show you're wrong so you get sorry because you've got hells inside you're hating and with alcohol and it is that's your sorrow i'll show you by your drug or your sorrow or whatever it is i'll show you so god you meant that oh immediately changes me my attitude changes i begin to have peace and then as i go on i begin to have faith god you've got a job on there i'm going to put my faith in there you've got a job i'm going to believe you're going to get you're going to use that as the first way to get that person saved so that changes my attitude that's why when a person comes to me so a bit of people bit of a way they come to me and say oh will you pray for me i've got an alcoholic husband alcoholic wife or a husband's run away with somebody or i've got a problem children in prison i say that's not your problem you're the problem it's because instead of saying god's in this thing praise god i can i believe you are transmitting death by your negative you say oh look at that alcohol look at that kid in prison look at that unfaithful wife or something and you you'll make it worse all the time and you're the problem if you learn as christian talking to christians that you're the person have the right the sin is your attitude sin isn't alcohol that's not the first thing they may just be their ignorance be caught up by something and we all be caught up with something and the real thing may not be the alcohol or the unfaithfulness it may be they're slaved by the devil now you're not you you're no better you're the sinner because you know better you're not the slave of the devil you have christ so it's up to you say well my position is you meant that god i'm going to watch i'm going to watch you change i'm going to and i'm going when i do that i'm going to say god's in that person that's a precious person he's redeemed doesn't know it maybe or doesn't know it and that's fine it's redeemed god you're there and i'm going to appreciate all the goodness all the goodness about my husband my wife or my kids all the good things i'm going to say about them appreciate the good and and uh there's a quality of hope and faith about me that may be the very thing that begins to change them because we have examples of that among our own racks we have precious examples of why suddenly find a husband who rejected god fine strong businessman rejected god was living with another woman when she found out do you know what she said to him she said i found out you're unfaithful i'm still your wife so i chucked you out you know what she said to her well he said if that's christianity i'll listen to it and he so listened that the the thing was broken up and he's back to the faithful husband day and then lovely for christ he was won by his wife saying i still your wife although you are unfaithful oh if that's christianity i'll listen to that one that's what this now that comes out of my attitudes now i never start that way i'm negative i'll start by not liking that and judging that because i'm just a my human reaction oh look at this but if i know the trick know how to like a conjuring trick know the trick and say yes that's seeing things with these eyes but that's not that's just the outer disturbance on the good that person's meeting god's image be misused person that's a person made in god's being redeemed doesn't know it's a misused person i'm not going to look at the misuse i don't look at the particle look at the sun i don't say particle sun i say particle sun put the emphasis on the sun which is just a particle haven't you been a particle haven't you been one so that begins to alter your your attitude and your attitudes are what you transmit and it changed moved in your action and now there's something further to be said about faith action there that's faith attitude do i go on a little bit there i think we'll break for this program right here i want to tell them about the new booklet which we've got on the book of job which explains the purpose of evil and how we get it in perspective in the plan of god i know some of these are shocking for some of our listeners it's different to what most people have been telling them but we're challenging you to open your own bible blow the dust off it and why don't you do what the bereans did and check these things for yourself whether they are so not to prove it wrong but to open your eyes and say could it be that the whole way i've looked at life is different to god's perspective because when you catch this message of god working all things after the counsel of his own will as paul said your whole body will become full of light that's the single eye of faith that jesus talked about so write for this booklet just mention the booklet on job and send your request to 4606 lamar avenue memphis tennessee 38118 that's 4606 lamar avenue memphis tennessee 38118 or you can call area code 901-795-0121 that's area code 901-795-0121 ask for the new booklet on job the book of job it's not titled that but if you just ask for the booklet on job we'll know exactly what you mean now we're on this station five days a week at the same time monday through friday so be sure to tune in each day now the address again in just a moment until next time this is david ord