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  PERSONAL QUESTIONS – HONEST ANSWERS (2003)
  by Zac Poonen
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Duration: 3:00:55

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CONTENT
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To begin with, can you tell us something about your past, where you were
born, and where you had your education, and when you joined the Navy?
Well, first of all, I'm glad all these press reporters are here. I hope
you'll put it in tomorrow's newspaper. I hope you'll write your Bible on
this day, sir.

Okay, your question was where I was born? You were born and where you
had your education, and when you joined the Navy. I was born in what is
now known as Chennai, but then Madras, about two months after World War
II started, on the 5th of November, 1939. And then my father was working
there, and we moved to Coimbatore, then to Karachi, before partition,
when there was no Pakistan.

And then when partition came, we moved to Delhi, and that's where I grew
up as a boy from the time I was 8 years old. And then I joined the Navy
when I was 15. I finished high school, and I joined the Navy.

Yeah, I joined the National Defence Academy as a cadet when I was 15
years old. Well, I really don't know when I came to know Jesus, because
my father was a believer, and he grew up in a God-fearing home. And many
times I accepted Jesus in my heart.

I'm sure it was only once was the real time, but I was never sure. So
maybe from the age of 13 to the age of 19, I must have asked Jesus to
come to my heart a hundred times or a thousand times, I don't know. But
one of those times was the real time, and I don't know which one it was.

I'm like a man who doesn't know his birthday. But I became sure of my
salvation only when I was 19 and a half. The same month I was
commissioned as an officer in the Navy, in July 59, by one verse, John
6, 37.

Him that cometh to me, Jesus said, I'll never cast out. I said, Lord,
I've come to you hundreds of times. He said, well, I'll never cast you
out.

I said, Lord, today I'm going to believe it. And I dropped an anchor
that day, and my ship has never drifted. From that day till today, I've
never doubted my salvation.

So that's 44 and a half years ago. Can I interrupt you for a moment? We
want to get the Tamil press sitting down there. It's more comfortable.

Brother, you can put some chairs there and probably translate there
itself. You brothers at the back also can make yourself more
comfortable. Tamil newspapers are also important.

Yeah, we'll continue. If you need more chairs, you can pick them up from
upstairs or somewhere. Brother Zak, I understand that you had a good
upbringing in your family.

I understand that your parents were godly. I understand that perhaps you
did not go out in the world and live a wicked life. But how did you know
that you were really saved? How did you know that your sins were
forgiven? Was it anything because of your upbringing or because you did
a number of good things and you felt accepted before God? How did you
really know that you were born again? You know, I think I had the
problem that a lot of children have who are brought up in good God-
fearing homes.

We haven't killed anybody and haven't robbed banks and things like that.
And so, it's sometimes a bit difficult for people who are brought up in
such families. First of all, to realize that they are also sinners just
like anybody else.

I think those of you who are brought up in God-fearing homes will feel
that. And I don't think I had such an awareness of sin at that time as I
have today. Because our awareness of sin increases as we walk closer
with God.

But I knew, I mean I knew my heart and I knew that it was bad just like
anybody else's heart. Even if I didn't do things on the outside, I
realized a little bit, I know much more today, that it doesn't make me
better than others. It just means that I didn't have the opportunity.

I mean if you tie up a fierce lion inside a cage of a zoo and you go
past it and the lion says, I didn't bite anybody today, it doesn't mean
anything. The question is if the lion was in the forest, it would have
probably bitten and killed so many people. You put the same lion in a
cage, it doesn't hurt anybody, it's not a proof that it's any better.

Or you put a snake under a piece of glass and it says, I didn't sting
anybody. And I feel I was like that. My circumstances were such that I
did not have the freedom to sin like other people.

And that's the only thing that prevented me from sinning like other
people. And therefore I was not really better. I mean a cobra inside a
glass case is no different from a cobra in the wild.

There is equal poison in both. Even though the cobra in the wild may
have killed so many, the cobra inside the case says I have not killed
anyone. So that's a little picture I gradually realized.

I don't think I understood it all in the beginning. But I realized that
God sees the heart and I am no better than anybody else even if I have
not done those things on the outside. I am a believer in the fact that
God in his great sovereignty says, you did not choose me, I chose you.

So that humbles me. I am not better than my brother, I am not better
than anybody else. But God chose me like he chose you.

And today I am a child of God because of that. I just became aware that
Jesus loved me. To me at that time, to be honest, it was not so much a
consciousness of sin.

I think consciousness of sin has come to me more early in the last few
years since we have started CFC. How did you know that you became a
child of God? I think it was the fact that God loved me that made me
say, Lord, I have to give my life to you. And it was assurance of that
verse, as I said, Him that cometh to me I will not cast out, which gave
me the assurance that I was a child of God.

I couldn't explain it as clearly as I can now then. But I knew I was
alive. What convinced you that God really accepted you and God loved
you? I think it was just God's word.

I had no experience. Yeah, this verse, John 6, 37. I want to tell all of
you for your benefit that I have never seen any light or heard any
voices or I have never seen any angels in my life.

I have not had what people call visions and I have had a few dreams when
I eat too much at night, which are meaningless. I would say I have had
maybe 14, 15 or 20 meaningful dreams also, which I believe the Lord
gave. But these fantastic experiences other people speak about, I have
never had them.

I have lived more by faith, not by sight. Does any of your past sort of
haunt you? Did it ever trouble you, make you doubt that God had accepted
you or loved you? No, I don't know why it is, but somehow I have never
doubted God's love for me. I must say there have been times in my life
where I have doubted whether God would protect me from some harm,
particularly when I realized that so many of God's children through the
ages have been persecuted and harassed and God allowed them to be eaten
by lions.

I am willing for that, but sometimes such fears have come in the past.
They become less as time goes on. But I can't say that I ever felt God
doesn't love me.

But don't you remember a day when God touched you or changed your life?
No, I don't remember any one day like that. I am exactly like a man who
doesn't know his birthday. Were you tempted to doubt your salvation at
any time? I have not only been tempted to doubt my salvation, I have
been tempted to doubt the existence of God itself.

Is there a God? There are times in my life when I look back on 45 years
when I prayed for something earnestly and nothing happened. Is there
somebody listening to all this I am saying or am I just talking into the
air? Okay, I felt it was safer to believe there is somebody there than
to, the other was worse, to think there was nobody up there in heaven.
But gradually as I have grown older I have understood that all this was
necessary for me to have what we call naked faith with no external sign
of anything.

Blind, naked faith. God is there. You only know in your spirit that
there is a real God.

That's how it's been for me. I have not had spectacular experiences like
other people have. What impact did it really make on your life? Was
there a change? Did you notice a change in your attitude, a change in
your life? Well, that's one thing that definitely happened.

I had a radical change in my ambitions because I was doing so well in
the Navy that I longed, because I was doing well, I thought I would want
to end up as the Admiral of the Navy. That was really my ambition and I
worked hard at it and that changed completely. I knew that if I was a
Christian now, I had no intention of leaving my job but I found in
different situations that if I am going to stand up and not do wrong
things, be a Christian, I just could not make it to the top.

I would have to compromise my convictions to make it to the top and I
was not willing to compromise my convictions. That was one change that
came. The other change was, I can't explain it, but exactly like a baby
cries out for milk and screams, you know, when you hear a baby
screaming, you know that as soon as it gets its mother's milk, it's just
quiet.

I had a similar passion to read the Bible and study it. I didn't know
the Bible but I found a tremendous thirst for the milk of God's word. I
can't explain it.

Did you ever tell what you experienced to any of your friends? Oh yes.
Were you shy or intimidated? Well, I was shy. I think I am still shy.

Very shy. I am basically a shy person. I have to battle it.

I would always rather be at the back rather than the front. I stand in
front only because God wants me to. But I have been a shy person.

I was much more shy when I was young. I am not this outgoing type of
person that other people are. I used to envy people who are outgoing.

You know, people who are called the life and soul of a party. We have
parties in the Navy where some people were the life and soul of the
party. They would cheer everybody up and slap people on the back and I
would be standing in the corner with my glass of orange juice.

But everybody knew that I was a Christian. Did anyone make fun of you?
Oh yes. They would call me Holy Joe and all types of… I mean not as bad
names as Christians call me nowadays but they were a little more decent.

The heathen are usually a little more decent. But that's like the Romans
never called Jesus by as bad names as the Pharisees did. Anyway, but
they made fun of me and that made me strong to stand up for Christ.

Every opportunity I got I would pass tracts out and various things like
that. Everybody knew I was a Christian. I used to carry a Bible in a
little cover.

Once when I was going out of the ship with this little bag, one of the
sailors, a junior sailor asked me, Sir, do you have a private insurance
job on the side or something? You go around with this bag. I said, yeah,
I do. Insuring people for eternity and these opportunities like that I
got to share God's word.

Were you ever discouraged? Did you lose faith? Did you lose courage at
any time? What was it that really gave you a good foundation in your
Christian life? I think after I was born again, for 16 years, I was
frequently discouraged. Not all the time. If I had some success in my
ministry or something exciting happened or I got a promotion in my job,
then I wouldn't be discouraged.

I'd be excited. But it didn't seem to last long because it was all up
and down for 16 years. Sometimes up and sometimes down.

You know, if we did something exciting, I'd be up. If nothing was
happening, it was all just daily routine, monotonous routine, then I'd
be discouraged. But then, the thing that changed it was when I got
filled with the Holy Spirit and began to understand the way of the
cross, then things really changed.

You went to Brethren Church, is it? In the beginning, I was baptized
with the Brethren Assembly and that's where I really developed a love
for the Word of God. That's where I was going first. When did you get
baptized? I got baptized... Did you go to the body of God? No, I took
some time.

I was christened as a child by my parents, but I was baptized as a
believer one and a half years after I was saved. Because I heard
different people saying, you know, it doesn't matter. These things are
not important.

If you don't get baptized, you can stay in the Jacobite Church and be a
witness there. That's where people need you. So I decided to study the
Bible.

And I studied the New Testament and I discovered that there is no child
baptism. There is only believer's baptism. And then I didn't obey it.

Because I was still thinking, what will I lose the opportunity to
witness in my own other denomination. And then every time I knelt down,
God would say, you are not listening to me, why should I listen to you?
And for one and a half years, though I was saved, I made no progress in
my life till I got baptized. Did the Word of God make any difference in
your life? Yeah, I think that was the time when I really began to take
my Christian life seriously.

I mean, I was born again. I had no doubt about it. I went to meetings
regularly.

But my Christian life became really serious after I was baptized. Coming
back to this up and down experience you said, you said 16 years, is it?
Now, you tell us that after you were baptized in the Holy Spirit, that
means to say you had no up and down experience? Well, I don't think it
was only baptism in the Holy Spirit. I think if I was baptized in the
Holy Spirit when I was… See, my baptism in the Holy Spirit, by the way,
I can't find foundation for it in scripture.

But I seem to get it in two stages. Now, don't ask me for a scripture
because everybody got it in one stage in the New Testament. But some
unbelieving creatures like me get it in two stages.

One was, I was really seeking God for power. And way back in 63, I
really believed God met with me because I saw some results in my
ministry and things like that. When you were in Navy, you were already
in the ministry, is it? Yeah, when I was in the Navy, I started
preaching.

And I was glad that I was already a little bald then. Was it a gift you
had as a speaker? No, baldness was also a gift. Because, I'll tell you
why, because I used to get up in these conventions to speak and I was
only 23 years old.

And because I was bald, people would think I was 35 and they would
listen to me. So, otherwise they wouldn't care. What is this young 22
year old fellow going to say? So, I could see God had a purpose in
everything.

And I was serving the Lord even then. I really studied the word. I would
come back home, study the word, study the word, study the word, pray.

God gave me a gift to speak. I can't say that. That's how I began to
minister the word when I was in the Navy.

Yeah, so after my baptism, I began to grow spiritually. Were you
prejudiced against the baptism of the Holy Spirit since you come from a
brethren background? Yeah, in the brethren assembly, they don't preach
about baptism of the Holy Spirit. So, I never thought about baptism of
the Holy Spirit.

So, how did you get interested in it? Yeah, because brethren assembly
taught me to study the word, which is a good thing. When I studied the
word, I found there was such a thing called baptism of the Holy Spirit.
And I used to read a little paper in those days called Herald of His
Coming, which read of the experiences of people like Moody and Finney.

And these people were baptized in the Holy Spirit and their whole life
was changed. And so, I began to seek God for it. I knew the brethren
couldn't help me, so I didn't go to them.

I went to some Pentecostal churches, and that was so noisy and so rad.
And one pastor told me to keep on saying, Hallelujah, Hallelujah,
Hallelujah. I said, No, I'm not going to say that.

I came back home discouraged. And I said, Lord, I don't want what the
brethren have. I don't want what the Pentecostals have.

I want what Peter, James, and John got on the day of Pentecost. If it
takes me 10 years to get it, I'm going to get it. And I sought God.

As I said, in two stages. First, God met with me in 1963. And then later
on, 10-12 years later, in 1975.

But how did you have the assurance that you were baptized in the Holy
Spirit? Initially, by faith. I was praying with a brother here in my
house. A visiting brother to Bangalore.

And I told him, see, I never seemed to be able to believe. I had a
hunger, but I couldn't believe that the Lord had really baptized me in
the Holy Spirit. Did you get any feeling? I had no feeling.

And he told me one sentence. Sometimes you know how one sentence can
liberate you. He said, Zach, it is unthinkable that God can call you to
serve Him.

And then refuse to give you His power to serve Him. That sounded very
logical to me. I was sure God had called me.

And then I said, yeah, that's right. So then as I was praying, He
rebuked the spirit of unbelief that was binding me. And He laid hands on
me.

And I said, Lord, thank you. I believe I have received right now. And I
received by faith.

And as I was praying, I spoke in tongues. But the tongues came after I
believed. Not before.

Was there any gap? I prayed only for less than 5 minutes. And I suddenly
found myself saying something I didn't want to say. And then I stopped
and continued in English.

And again said something I didn't want to say. Then I asked this
brother, hey, did you hear something? He said, yes, you spoke in
tongues. Do you still exercise the gift of tongues? Yes, I do.

I wish I would do it more often. But certainly, you know, more in times
of pressure, almost every worship meeting, I will worship the Lord in
tongues. Or in a prayer meeting together.

Or in a time of pressure. Or when confronted with a demon-possessed
person. Yeah, I do exercise it.

What was it that really brought stability in your life? Were there times
that you backslid? Yeah, in those 16 years, frequently. Sometimes pretty
badly. But always inwardly.

My outward testimony was always good, which made it worse. Because I
became a hypocrite. And it was in that state of hypocrisy that the Lord
met me the second time in 1975.

But since then, I would say stability has come through a number of
things. One, this absolute assurance that my past sins are all blotted
out by the blood of Christ. Another thing that has brought stability in
my life is this rock-solid promises of scripture.

In God's word, as I come to know God's word and quote God's word to the
devil. And the third is this baptism in the Holy Spirit. And I would say
a fourth thing is that the Lord has shown me that I must die to myself
every day.

That's also brought stability. And the fifth is the fellowship.
Particularly the fellowship that I have experienced in CFC with
wholehearted brothers.

But after you were baptized in the Holy Spirit, did you find the
Christian life to be tough or heavy or boring? I think more tough than
before. I have had more opposition after being baptized in the Holy
Spirit. More misunderstanding.

Well, I will tell you this. I remember it was in January 1975 that the
Lord met with me the second time. It was like a complete experience.

Till then, my baptism in the Holy Spirit was something like you buy an
encyclopedia set and 2-3 volumes are missing. And then you get those 2-3
volumes and then the whole set is complete. My baptism in the Holy
Spirit was like that.

And then I said, well, if this is something really from God, because you
know the next day after I spoke in tongues I had all types of doubt. Did
I make it up yesterday? Was it really from God? Was it really from me? I
said, okay, if it is really from God, I will start reading the New
Testament all over again and let me see if the Holy Spirit teaches me
something which I have not known for 16 years of studying the Bible. And
I tell you, I have learned a lot of things since 1975 which I never knew
before.

And as I started with Matthew chapter 1 and I wanted to know, I was
looking for assurance of baptism in the Holy Spirit. And I thought, boy,
Matthew, this so and so begat so and so, and so and so begat so and so
and so. I was not getting any assurance from who begat who.

The whole half of the chapter was all this. And then all of a sudden, I
came to the end of Matthew chapter 1 where the angel says to Joseph,
this thing that has come to Mary is from the Holy Spirit. Oh, that is
exactly the word I was looking for.

And then the Lord began to speak to me, this is from the Holy Spirit.
But just like it was only Mary who knew it, and all the others
misunderstood her, thinking that it is not Holy Spirit, your experience
also, you know it, but everybody else will misunderstand you from now
on. And like Mary had to bear a shame because the Spirit came upon her,
you will have to bear shame from now on.

And then the Lord said to me, just like Mary had the Spirit come upon
her to produce Jesus in her, the Holy Spirit has come upon you also to
produce Jesus in you. And the Lord said, this gift of tongues is so
abused and misunderstood in the world. And I want you to take that gift
and adorn it with a Christ-like life so that people will once again have
faith in this gift.

Coming back to this subject of backsliding, I think you would agree that
many young people face this constantly. What is the cause of backsliding
in your life? How long did you remain in a backslidden condition and how
did you come out of backsliding? Is it normal for a Christian to
backslide? Is it normal? Well, it's the experience of many Christians,
but I don't believe it's God's will. It's not what God has planned as
normal, but it is normal in the lives of many Christians.

I picture it as the five fingers of the Christian life. Absolute
assurance, number one, that the blood of Christ has cleansed me.
Tremendous hunger for God's word, number two, to study it, to know it
well.

Third, power of the Holy Spirit, to be filled with the Holy Spirit
continuously, not just one experience. Fourth, taking up the cross every
day, dying to yourself. And fifth, seeking fellowship with other God-
fearing people.

With five fingers you can hold something very tight. You can hold it
with two fingers also, but it's not so tight. Somebody can pull it out
of your hand.

So, you can be born again, you have accepted Christ, you love the word,
I suppose you can balance it with one thumb also, but it's a bit tough.
But if you have five fingers, you have a solid grip on the Christian
life. And people backslide when they gradually begin to lose.

Maybe they don't value fellowship, and where one finger goes. Or they
don't take up the cross every day, another finger goes. They don't seek
to be continuously filled with the Holy Spirit, another finger goes.

Or they don't meditate on God's word, whether they read it or not. Many
people tell me that they don't find the Bible interesting. Many people
tell me that they don't find the Bible interesting.

How do you find the Bible interesting? Well, I also find the Bible quite
boring sometimes. To tell you honestly, I don't feel like reading the
Bible many days. But it's like, I say, even if I don't feel like, I
mean, it's like, there were days in the Navy when I didn't feel like
going to work.

But I still went to work, whether it was raining or not. There were
days, I suppose, when I was a child, when I didn't feel like going to
school. I suppose my parents forced me to go to school.

Yeah, there were many things in life which we don't feel like doing, but
we still do. But, you know, you go to, those of you who work, you go to
work, whether you feel like it or not. You don't feel like going to
school or college some days, you still go.

But when it comes to the Bible, people say, oh, when I feel like, I'll
read it. That's not correct. Whether you feel like it or don't feel like
it, you read it.

Whether it's interesting or not. Because it does something for you. And
that's what I found.

The discipline of reading the scripture, whether you find it boring.
There are days when I read something, I got nothing from it. To tell you
honestly, I got nothing.

I just read through it, I got some information. No. Okay.

But sometime during the day, God may speak to me, not from that verse,
but it's that discipline of just reading. You know, I remember hearing a
story I'll never forget. You know what a sieve is? A sieve is something
where you strain tea leaves or So, one person was telling another
brother, My mind is like a sieve.

You know, however much I put God's word into it, it all goes out. Like
water. But that man was a godly man.

He said, you know, you put a sieve under a tap. It doesn't hold a bit of
water. But have you seen how clean the sieve becomes after all the water
flows through it? So, never mind if your mind is like a sieve, it
becomes clean.

That was good for me. Did you have some good young people as friends
during your youth? I can't say that in the days where I was. Very few
who were wholehearted.

Were you lonely then? I was very lonely spiritually. For example, when I
used to go and preach in the streets of Cochin, Nobody came with me. Not
one person from the assembly.

I would go there and get some other brother from some other full time
worker to come and translate for me and I would stand in every street in
Cochin and preach. But I had a passion for Christ. What the Lord told me
when I was 20, 21, 23 years old was, don't look at other people.

You'll be disappointed. Look at me. So, I did learn to look at Jesus.

How did you get that passion for the Lord? I don't know. I think it came
by meditating on two things. How much Jesus loved me and how much I had
been forgiven.

Two things. Just two things. Jesus said, those who are forgiven much,
love much.

And the Bible says, we love him because he first loved us. So, those are
the two things that make us love the Lord more. I can say I meditated
much on the cross.

I didn't understand all the deeper meaning of the cross that I know
today. But I knew this, that Jesus loved me and I just meditated on
that. That's about the only thing I knew those days.

Did you have any interest in sports or music? Are you reading the Bible
all the time? Well, when I was a young boy, I used to play cricket. I
wasn't very good at other games. I was more the studios type.

But I did have interest in playing cricket. I would go out to play
regularly. Then, when I was in the Navy, I played some squash.

So, I did play games. And I had some interest in it. I was never very
great at it.

But, and I was very interested as a young boy to watch. I would go sit
and see India versus West Indies, five days, sitting in the stadium. I
was very interested in those things.

Now, does it mean that after you became a Christian, you kept away from
other friends or did you still have friends in the Navy who were not
Christians? Yeah, I had some very good friends who were not Christians
in the Navy. But they would know that I was a Christian. Who were your
best friends? Well, I had good friends in the Navy.

But whenever I went to a shore, I would always find fellowship with some
local church. My best friends were always in a local church. But I kept
a very good relationship with my secular colleagues.

I wasn't sort of obnoxious by always trying to preach to them. I was
very normal and friendly with them. And I never tried to thrust religion
down people's throats.

I wanted to be a witness. I didn't have much wisdom. But the only person
I was very unwise in preaching to was my own brother.

Every letter was a long sermon. And when he got married, he told his
wife, because of religion I lost a brother. I heard that.

I felt so bad. I went and apologized to him. I said, I am really sorry
that I didn't mean to be a preacher to you.

I just want to be a friend to you. And we are very good friends today.
Did you think you were fanatical? I think a lot of people thought I was
fanatical.

But I probably was also. But I gradually sobered up. I think one of the
lacks I had was I didn't have a good mentor.

A mentor means someone to whom I could go as a father. Like a Timothy to
a Paul. I always wanted somebody like that.

I think the closest I ever came to that was somebody like Brother
Baksing. But he didn't have much time. I didn't have much time with him.

So there was nobody locally where I was living whom I really respected
as a godly man who knew God. So I was pretty much on my own. So I had to
sort of seek God on my own.

And I probably did a lot of foolish things because of that. If there was
some older brother around, he would have probably given me a little
advice which I didn't have. So many young people are having so much
problems in their thought life.

Did you have any problem in your youth? No, sure. I was 100% normal.
Because you were always reading the Bible and you were preaching.

Despite all that. All the reading of the Bible and all the preaching.
You still have tremendous problems with your thought life.

And also tremendous wandering thoughts when you pray. Even now when I
pray my thoughts begin to wander. It's not easy to concentrate.

I have a flesh which I am constantly reminded of. And I keep battling
it. So, it's like that.

What about all these temptations that young people face? You would have
faced in your youth. Sure, all of them. Temptation to pornographic
literature and jokes and filthy jokes.

Was that difficult for you? I was tempted with all of those things. But
because I was converted when I was 19, I think I was protected. For
example, I used to go to the movies.

I used to take other people to the movies. And then I got converted. And
I remember, I said, now I can't go to the movies anymore.

And I remember that first day in 1959, when two of my friends asked me
to come with them to a cinema. We had a cinema inside the naval base.
And I just did not have the courage to say to them, No, I am a Christian
now.

I don't go to these things. And so we walked towards the cinema theater.
And I was crying out to God, Oh God, please save me from this situation
somehow or the other.

And we walked all the way up to the cinema theater. And there was a big
notice there saying, The reel did not arrive. So, today's cinema is
cancelled.

I was so happy. But when I came home, the Lord said to me, I am not
going to do that for you next time. You got to tell them yourself that
you are not going.

But that was such an encouragement to me, that even after 44 years, I
haven't forgotten it. That that time when I really didn't want to, and I
didn't have the courage to say, No, God help me. So, I was tempted in so
many ways.

But it was a battle, it was a battle, it was a battle. And what I want
to say to all of you people is, If you fight the battle, if you fight
the battle, you will find one day, you will overcome. You know, the fact
that you are tempted, doesn't mean anything serious.

And even the fact that you fall, if you hate it and you fight it, and
that's what really helped me. It doesn't interest me. The time comes
when you, it may take longer with some people and less time with some
people, but I want to encourage you to keep fighting that battle.

That's the main thing. When you were in Navy, were you thinking of
remaining single, or were you anytime interested in any girls? Well, you
know, when I was about 23 years old, I mean, I was a normal human being,
attracted to girls probably from the time I was 13 or 12, I don't know.
Just like anybody else.

But I didn't have the boldness to approach any girl, you know. So,
that's what I think protected me. Indian culture was much more rigid and
stiff 50 years ago than it is today.

And the thing is, when I was, because I became a Christian when I was 23
years old, I read a verse in the Bible, book of Jeremiah, where, and I
marked it in my Bible, where the Lord said, Jeremiah, that you must not
take a wife in this place. And I wrote that down. And I felt God had
spoken to me.

And I was convinced, on the basis of that verse, when I was about 23
years old, that I was going to be single for the rest of my life. I was
absolutely convinced of it because I wanted to obey God. I felt that's
what God told me to do.

And I obeyed Him. And I saw from that day onwards, by God's grace, I
never looked at a girl and considered her as a prospective marriage
partner. Every proposal that came to me, I'd say, sorry, I'm not getting
married.

And that protected me for that period because I see that God allowed me
to think like that because He wanted me to study the scriptures instead
of just going around looking at, find out, is this my partner, is that
my partner. Then how did you get interested in marriage later? Yeah.
Well, when I left the Navy, I was 26 and a half years old when I left
the Navy.

Incidentally, what made you leave the Navy? When I was 24 and a half, I
used to travel around with Brother Bhaktsing during my holiday time. We
used to get 60 days leave every year. And I used to travel around with
Brother Bhaktsing to different places, preach in different places.

And I found tremendous liberty in preaching. I found I had a real gift
in preaching when I was 23 years old. Even Brother Bhaktsing recognized
it.

And I was the youngest person he ever invited to speak in his
convocation. And that message, by the way, is on the website, A New
Vessel Full of Salt, which I preached when? 63, which is 40 years ago. I
found I had a gift and I found this tremendous need everywhere.

And I felt, boy, it looks as if I can do more good going around
preaching since God has given me a gift than being in the Navy. So as
that burden grew, one day when I was reading the scriptures in Isaiah
49, that was my daily portion, sitting in a train coming from KGF with
Brother Bhaktsing to Bangalore, interestingly. We stopped at Bangarapet
to change trains and by the time God had already spoken to me in that
short journey from Isaiah 49, it was a clear call for me from that,
which I had been thinking of before, that I must leave.

And while I was sitting in Bangarapet station, thinking about this,
Brother Bhaktsing, who has known me for a number of years, came up to me
and asked me, we were all waiting to catch the train, when are you
thinking of leaving the Navy? I said, this man is a prophet. He knows
what I am thinking about. God had spoken to him to confirm to me what I
had already been thinking.

I said, brother, I just decided to leave. And so we came here to
Bangalore to the house of worship, Herman. And I got up there and I
said, I decided to leave the Navy.

I went back to Cochin and I put in my resignation. Just when I went
back, I got an order from naval headquarters that I had been selected
for the most prestigious course that any officer of my rank could get.
It was just like the devil offering me all the kingdoms of the world at
that very moment.

And I put in my resignation. My senior officer said, you are a fool.
There are other people who try so hard for this course and don't get it.

You got it so easily. Are you sure? Go back and think about it. I said,
sir, I have decided.

I am not interested in this. So you thought of marriage after leaving
Navy? After leaving, but they didn't release me for two years. I kept
saying, because I said to naval headquarters, Jesus Christ has called me
for his work.

They said, we couldn't care less for that. You got to work here. Because
they had spent so many lakhs training me.

And so, when I began to travel around, I found it was very dangerous.
Because, you know, you stand up in the pulpit and so many girls are
eyeing you and so many mothers of girls are eyeing you. But you only got
the words that you had to be single.

Sorry? You only got the words that you had to be single. Yeah, but I
said, Lord, this is, I don't find, what am I going to do? I mean, in a
moment of weakness, I may suddenly say yes to somebody. I got really
scared as I was traveling around.

And I went back to that verse. And the Lord, it says there, you shall
not marry in this place. Then I realized, as long as I was in the Navy,
that I was not to get married.

It became clear to me. Otherwise, I had a struggle with that verse. But
the Lord hid that part from me all the years I was in the Navy.

And then when I left, of course, I had no job, no salary. I decided I
would never consider marriage as long as I was in the Navy. So, I knew
that if somebody married me and I didn't, I was bald and I had
everything against me.

So, if somebody married me, it was only for spiritual reasons. So,
that's how it was. So, how did you decide to marry Sustani? Yeah, well,
you see, our Indian culture is such that you can't take people out for a
date or anything like that.

But it's very interesting that when I was in the Navy, when I was about
24 years old, I was invited to speak at a retreat for students. I used
to minister among students, young people, when I was in the Navy. And
there was the chairman of Clarence School here.

It was a man called Alva. He was a lieutenant those days. We were good
friends because we used to have meetings together.

He was in the same assembly. And his father-in-law came to Cochin and
heard me preach. And his father-in-law was a professor in CMC Velore.

And so, when he heard me preach, he went back to CMC Velore and told the
students, you got to get this man from the Navy to come here and speak.
And the secretary of that student's union was a young sister called
Annie Uman. And she said, we don't want any naval people here.

We want some serious Christians. So, he said, no, you call him. So, she
wrote a letter to me.

Dear brother in Christ, we would like to invite you. I didn't know who
she was and she didn't know who I was. But did she attend any of your
meetings before? I am amazed at God from heaven watching all this with a
twinkle in his eye.

Because he knew the future and I didn't know. And I replied, okay, dear
sister, thank you very much for your invitation. And I didn't know who
she was.

Just a name to me. And I went there and I preached. And boy, it was real
revival.

They never had, the hall got so filled, they had to change the hall to
another place. And then we had meetings in the hospital, CMC hospital,
the place was packed out. And that's where I first saw her.

But of course, I was not getting married, so the question didn't arise.
But did you attend to talk to her? Praise the Lord, sister. Now, when
you saw her, were you attracted to her? Okay, the question is, when I
saw her, was I attracted to her? Well... We must ask her.

This is hard talk. Now, this is real hard talk now. We have both of them
up here now.

Now, you can answer that, Rizak, again. Were you attracted? He's asked
her whether she was attracted to me. No doubt about that.

Well, you know, I had a struggle with it because I had disciplined
myself not to be attracted. So, you know, I used to preach in a peculiar
way those days. I would turn to the brothers and I would stand like
this.

I said, I don't want to be tempted. I'm a young man and I've got to
preach. I would stand like this every time I preached.

And I would be very formal and very stiff and everything else. But then,
after that, when I began to consider marriage, I thought about her. I
said, well, she's a doctor.

She's not going to marry some jobless guy like me. And I don't know
where she is. Then, brother Baksing one day called me and said, I've got
somebody in mind for you.

He said, Annie, because she used to go to that assembly. And there was a
brother called Chandapilla who was in charge of the students. He was the
first general secretary of UESI.

He called me one day and said, brother Jack, I've got somebody in mind
for you. And that's Annie. Two people said the same thing.

And then, of course, I had no problem accepting it because I was
attracted. But I still wanted to be sure of God's will. And I said,
Lord, I don't know whether, is she wholehearted? Is she willing to pay
the price of a difficult life? And so, when we did meet, I told her,
listen, I don't know where I'm going to live.

I may live in a hut. I may go to Rajasthan. I don't know what my
ministry is.

I've just left the Navy two years ago, or a year ago. It was just one
year after I left. I don't know what I'm going to do.

I have no money. And I painted the bleakest, darkest picture I could
ever paint of the future. And I said, don't give me an answer.

Think about it for three days. I didn't say three years. Three days.

And, of course, I hoped that her answer would be yes. And I inquired
from other people. And somebody told me that all her colleagues were
going to America.

And she was going to work in a leprosy hospital. And I said, well,
that's a good sign. And then somebody else told me that even though she
was a doctor, she was sleeping on the floor in the general ward to help
some poor sister who was admitted.

I said, well, that's the type of person I want. But were you drawn to
her because she was a doctor? Oh, no. I couldn't care less whether she
was a doctor.

If she was a sweeper, that would be fine too. I never cared for being a
Malayali. I never cared for being a doctor.

What are the qualities you were looking for? I wanted someone who was
sold out for God. I wanted someone who was willing to suffer anything
for Jesus Christ. I wanted someone who cared for the poor.

Because most of India has poor people. And who was willing to serve at
any cost to themselves. But you know, these days there are many good-
looking girls and educated girls and all the spiritual… Well, I wasn't
good-looking.

So how could I ask for good-looking? I think we must ask Sustani that.
What was it that drew you to Brunswick? Were you attracted to him? Was
it love at first sight? What was it? Since it's a press conference, I
think I have to be very careful in what I say. But definitely I had a
lot of admiration for him.

When I heard him speak… Was it because he's a good-looking sister? Yeah.
Beauty in the eyes of the beholder. I found him handsome.

I mean, he's still handsome. One more mic. One more mic.

But when I heard him speak at the retreat, I felt that God was speaking
to me, telling me that I should remain single and I should go to the
leprosy hospital and not think of marriage. That's how his message is. I
felt like God wanted me to think of him, first of all.

That means him. Oh, God. But just before going to the leprosy hospital,
Pranabhaktsingh called me to Madras and he spoke to me to consider Zak
and pray about it.

That's how I started. So how long did it take for you to know that Zak
was the right one for you? Because Brother Bhaktsingh had suggested, I
was more or less inclined and I had also heard my husband speak. So I
knew that I would like to marry a person.

I mean, he's my hero, so I would like to marry Zak. But I had to... Zak,
how long did it take you to know that Zak is the right person? But I was
praying about it because I didn't know whether he would... I didn't know
that Brother Bhaktsingh had already talked to Zak about me. So then I
was just waiting for God to show me whether my husband was interested in
me or like that.

And when I was praying, I got some guidance that I should now consider
marriage. But I had already committed that I was going to the leprosy
hospital. So I was working there and praying about it.

But how much did you know about your sister? Then Zak came to the
leprosy... In Karigiri, there's a small training center. He came there
and took some meetings and that's the time we talked very briefly about
it and he asked me to pray about it. By then, Brother Bhaktsingh had
already spoken... I mean hinted about it.

So he told me to pray about it for three days and reply. So I prayed
about it and I replied to him what my answer was. But he didn't get my
reply.

The letter never came. That letter didn't reach him. And I was in a
panic.

I was wondering what happened. Waiting for the postman every day. No
letter, no letter, no letter, no letter.

It's the sovereignty of God, you know. It's like God saying, who is more
important in your life? Finally it became so bad, I called her up. I
said, I told you to write after three days.

Even if it's no. She said, I wrote after three days. I said, yes.

Yes. Yeah. I must say I fell in love.

Good. I rose up in love, not fell in love. But did you want to get to
know her brother earlier? No, I didn't get... I just knew that she
really loved the Lord and she had an interest in the books I was
interested in about the way of the cross and things like that.

The biographies I read of people like Jim Elliot and things like that.
Those are the type of stuff she was reading too. So we knew we had like-
minded.

And our parents never knew about this. This was entirely between Bhagat
Singh and her and me. And after that, I told my parents and she told her
parents.

And it was... I mean, my parents said, okay. But her parents said, no,
we'll never let you marry this man. We didn't train you up to be a
doctor to get some fellow who doesn't have... I don't blame them.

I think if some daughter of mine far away said she is marrying some
full-time worker, I would have some questions in my mind too. But then
he finally agreed. Within three months.

Yeah. While we are on this subject, I think everybody is awake now. What
would you say to young brothers and sisters attracted to one another?
What would you say about a young brother and sister, you may use the
term, falling in love with each other.

And if they do, what is your advice? How should they conduct themselves?
See, I personally don't believe there is anything wrong in falling in
love because I think we did both fall in love with each other. But the
basis on which we loved each other was not physical. You see, it's true.

I'll tell you absolutely honestly that I found her very attractive
physically and I still do. Because beauty is not determined by these
Miss Universe contests. Beauty is more than physical.

It's a total thing. And as I see it, it was the spiritual part which is
primary but not the only. I felt that it's perfectly right if you are
drawn to a person because of spiritual values first, not just because
you want to get married.

Because some people, just because they want to get married, get
attracted to somebody and they are very unhappy. Within 6 months they
wish they hadn't got married. I've been married 35 years.

I'll tell you the honest truth before God. I have seen numerous girls in
many parts of the world. I've never, never, never felt that I could ever
have married any one of them.

I mean, my honest conviction is that if I hadn't married any, I probably
have been single for the rest of my life. Because I just didn't find
anybody. So it is not a question of, okay, this is the only one
available, I better get married.

It wasn't like that for me. For some people it may be. I don't say it's
wrong.

But for me it wasn't like that. I pray that whoever gets married,
they'll be drawn to someone through spiritual factors. And it may be,
you see, ours is, in a sense, we didn't go dating for so many days and
then discover each other.

We sought God. And I say God is not the prisoner of any culture. He is
not bound to western culture or anything.

In the west they do it one way, in the east they do it another way. God
is the one who leads the people who date. And God is the one in India
who leads the people who, God knows in their culture they cannot date.

So what? But God is not the prisoner of a particular culture. And
whichever way we do it, God must lead us. And then we'll have a very
happy marriage.

How long did you have to wait? Did you have to wait till you got
married? Yeah, well, because her parents objected, it was about ten
months after we ourselves decided that we would accept each other, a
little over ten months that we actually got married. So what would you
say, I mean, in that time, how much did you know of each other? Well, by
correspondence. And she was living in the middle of Maharashtra and I
was traveling here and there and we could write letters.

But when her father said no, then no correspondence. He said, then we
mustn't, we respect, I believe that we must honor our parents. I said,
your father is a believer, we must honor him.

We will do what he says. If he says no, we commit it to the Lord. And I
didn't write.

And then when her father finally came home and agreed to it, to my home,
that is, to my parents' home, agreed to it, then we could correspond
more freely. Sister, you are not looking for a doctor to be married to,
is it? I just wanted God's will in my life. Even when I was a medical
student, I spent most of my free time with Evangelical Union and
visiting the hospital and arranging meetings for fellow students.

So I was interested a lot in serving the Lord. So I was not primarily
interested in a doctor. But sometimes I used to think that my classmates
who married doctors, they did well in their profession because both were
doing the same thing.

But in my case, my goal, medical, my goal was not my profession. So that
was okay with me. I suppose you don't have any regrets that you didn't
marry a doctor? No, I have no regrets about that.

Now, in this time while you have waited for one another, I mean, did you
daydream and fantasize? Oh, sure. In a good way? Plenty, plenty. Brother
Zak, you have mentioned on several occasions that many young people
backslide after marriage.

Did you backslide after marriage or how did you overcome this problem? I
think I was at the other extreme. I was traveling, ministering, and I
continued traveling and ministering and sometimes left my wife for long
periods. I would not recommend that today.

I didn't have wisdom. I really sought to serve the Lord. I thought
serving the Lord meant that I got to, whether I am married or not, if I
have to go away for three weeks.

I think within two months of my marriage, I left my wife and went off to
Sri Lanka for quite some time, for some meetings, and I continued
traveling continuously in my first year of marriage. But I wouldn't
recommend that right now. I think I was a bit foolish.

I should have spent more time with my wife. But my understanding, you
know, I mean, I sought to love the Lord and I think one thing that
helped me was we were very poor and it's easier for rich people to
backslide than poor people to backslide. When a poor person is poor and
serving the Lord, we have to cling to the Lord.

We don't even have money to survive. I had no income and all of the
money she earned, she had to work for one year in our marriage because
she had a bond to the hospital. But that entire money which she worked
for one year, she sent to her parents because she had other brothers and
sisters who were still studying.

So she sent all of her first year salary, that's the only year she ever
worked in her life, sent to her parents. So we were very poor and I
think that kept us close to the Lord. That's what I can think.

While you are on that subject, yeah. See, you came from a family where,
you know, maybe a wealthy middle class family, let's say. Middle class,
I would say, but not wealthy.

We were average. I mean, my father was not a rich man. He was in the
government service and just earned one… He was a very honest person,
never made any money more than any government servant would make.

How did you all accommodate yourselves to a simple lifestyle after you
got married? I think both of us had decided that we were going to serve
the Lord and even when I was in the Navy, I used to discipline myself by
sleeping on the floor. I think I can still sleep on the floor today. I
would sometimes go two days without food while I was on the ship, just
drink some liquids to prepare myself to serve the Lord and try to kneel
down and pray for a whole night and things which, maybe they were just
physical feats, but I wanted to discipline myself and I knew that if I
serve the Lord, I have to live a very simple life.

So, and I had given up all my money to God's work. I didn't have any
savings left when I left the Navy. So, we just accepted that.

We knew that Jesus was poor, the apostles were poor, so we were in good
company. We just accepted it. I had asked you a question earlier.

Maybe you can give your opinion, both you and Sister Annie. What is your
opinion about young people falling in love? Now, we are in a country of
mixed cultures. Now, in some cultures, in some places, people would like
to have an arranged marriage.

What is your opinion of, you know, young people falling in love with
each other and what would you, first of all, what is your opinion on
that and then I will ask you the next question. I don't think there is
anything wrong with it if the attraction is purely based on something
spiritual, but I would say that as soon as possible thereafter, you
should tell your parents about it in India. Because if you are
considering marriage, I personally believe that we should get the
blessing of parents if parents are born again believers.

And since her father was a born again believer, I knew that, I have
never met him, he never met me, I told her that we will honor your
parents and until he says yes, I won't marry you. If it means I have to
wait, I will wait. I will wait 20 years, 30 years.

Because I have faith in God that if it is God's will, He will speak to
your father. And in three months, God spoke to her father. And he agreed
without even seeing me.

It's really amazing how he agreed without even seeing my face. He didn't
want to see you? No, no, no. No, he was naturally scared.

You know, whenever anybody gives a daughter in marriage, the first thing
they think of is will this man be able to take care of my daughter? And
secondly, is he trying to exploit her medical profession to make her
work and earn money because he is… You know, people go into full time
work. You know, you talk about in India today, full time worker. 90% of
them are crooks.

So naturally, full time worker has got a bad impression. So, how does he
know whether I am in that 90% or the other 10%? I don't blame him one
bit. But then, so he said, he ruled it all.

But then he used to, in his business, he used to travel all over India
and he met some missionaries whom he had a tremendous respect for. And
he asked their opinion. And he asked someone, whether, you know, there
is some guy called who wants to marry my daughter.

That chap said, boy, you will be lucky if you get him or something like
that. So he, God made him meet the right people. And so, he got some
good reports from these people.

And when he heard those reports, I think he was also a believer who
feared God. Otherwise, a person who was only interested in money would
never allow that. He agreed to it.

So, Sandy, what's your advice to young people who fall in love with each
other? And the second part of that question is, you agree with her, how
should they conduct themselves till they get married? If a girl is a
believer, definitely, if she falls in love with an unbeliever, we should
say, immediately rule it out. Because we should not be unequally yoked
with unbelievers. So, there is no question of falling in love with
unbelievers.

But if you are interested and like a believer and pray about it,
definitely, we should tell our parents and wait for their consent. we
should not do things on the sly and put ourselves in embarrassing
situations. How would you know a person is a believer? How would you
know that somebody is a believer? His testimony, he has accepted the
Lord and he loves the Lord and his values, when you talk to him, you
know what his values are and like that we can know.

Brother, these days, people don't think of any God. They say, we must
get to know one another before we get married. What do you say for that?
I believe we must, you can't marry somebody you don't know anything
about.

I could not have married her if somebody just said any woman. How can I
find out who is any woman? I don't know. So, you need to know something.

The thing is, in the western countries, they try to find out in one way
and here in this country, we find out in another way. That's the only
difference. But in both cases, we need some information on the basis of
which we decide.

And it's a question of how we get that information. In the western
countries, they tend to sort of go out together and try to know each
other. Here, because we can't do that and keep our testimony, at least
couldn't do it in my days, things may be different now, we had to depend
on God more and say, Lord, give me correct information.

And I believe God loves us so much that he will give us the right
information about a person within the limitations of our culture and
find out from people who know about the other person and not blindly go
ahead. I don't believe that I would ever have fallen in love with
anybody if I didn't feel that that person was a totally committed
Christian. And I want to say now, looking back after 35 years of
marriage, you know, marriage, there are so many pressures and
particularly when you have children and if you men marry a girl who is
not a wholehearted Christian, you know, when some pressure comes, they
don't know how to handle it.

You'll have to be the one whom they lean on all the time for any
spiritual problem. The answer is only found in God. They don't know God
so well and you have to be everything.

When I thanked God, I didn't have to be everything because she knew God
as well as me. She could pray as much as me. If I'm not there, she
doesn't have to ask me.

She can ask God. Whereas if you marry someone who doesn't know the Lord,
who just was born again yesterday or something like that, what's going
to happen when your children have a problem later on in life? You hear
somebody who doesn't know the Lord and she'll be like marrying a lame
person whom you have to carry around all the time and can't stand on her
own feet. Maybe alive, born again, but lame.

You wouldn't marry a physically lame person because it would be a
tremendous handicap. You should not marry a spiritually lame person even
if the person is born again. That's why you need to really ask God to
show you as much as possible within the limitations of Indian culture
whether this person can really be strong on his own.

And if you girls are getting married, the thing that will help you the
most is if you can say, can I look up to this person? Can this person be
someone whom I can really look up to all my life, not whom I have to
accept as my head because the Bible says the husband is the head of the
wife, by whom spontaneously I can look up to because he's my leader.
Brother, do you think the young people should consult anyone or they can
just make decisions on their own? See, love is sometimes at first sight.
You have to admit that.

It's blind, you see. It's blind also, but they say, but it shouldn't be
blind. In fact, the saying is keep both eyes open before you get married
and one eye shut after you get married.

So you don't see all the faults in your husband or wife. The time to
keep one eye shut is after marriage. Before marriage keep both eyes wide
open.

So, but the thing is, when you see somebody who you find is really
spiritually minded, you're really, if you're a spiritually minded girl
or boy, you're naturally attracted to that person. And in your mind you
begin to consider, boy, I'll be good if I can marry that person. There's
nothing wrong with that feeling.

But you have to consider the possibilities of it and say, are you
compatible to one another in socially, economically, educationally, like
that, in the sense that can you speak the same language, can you speak
at the same level. There are so many factors like this you got to think
of. And then I would say the next step is, in our culture anyway, if
you've got God-fearing parents, tell your parents about it.

Or if you don't have God-fearing parents, go and tell an elder in whom
you have confidence. If you don't have confidence in your local church
elder, find some other elder brother in somewhere else or some godly
person, need not be from your church, who will keep your confidence and
advise you and who can help you. I would say definitely we must consult
this.

In the multitude of counselors there is safety. What was some practical
advice to young people who are interested in one another and they have
to wait till they get married, what should they do? I think first of all
they should decide whether they are definitely deciding to get married.
Otherwise they shouldn't continue a friendship too long because you
know, very often things break up and I would say consider all the
factors before you decide to commit yourself to each other.

Especially in India, you need to consider the opinion of parents.
Whether you like it or not, in Indian culture marriage is marriage into
a family. Unlike western culture where you marry an individual full
stop, in Indian culture you are marrying into a family, they are very
close links with the family, you cannot avoid it and therefore you need
to consider whether the girl's parents or the boy's parents will accept
this, are you sure of that, if not, hold the reins back a bit, hold on
and wait till that's what I did.

I mean when parents didn't agree, I said okay we'll wait and that's the
place where you are tested whether God is first or the other person is
first. I even said to the Lord, Lord, if you don't want to marry her,
that's fine, your will is more important to me than anything else and
you are more important to me, I'm not going to be disappointed, I mean
I'll feel sad but disappointment is only if God gives up on me, which
will never happen. Sister Annie would you like to say something on that,
give us your opinion.

I agree that we must wait for our parents to, I mean God's blessing is
there if we honour our parents and even if unbelieving parents, I think
if we have faith, I don't know, I feel that they can, but I'm convinced
that we shouldn't run away and get married, definitely that's wrong, we
should wait for both parents to be happy about it. Thank you. Well our
time is running out and brother can you, in closing, can you tell us
what's the secret of your Christian life.

Maybe before we go to that, there's one area that I think is a problem
for many young people, I know it's a mixed gathering but maybe some
advice, you know in the sexual area, some of the sexual problems that
young people face, particularly in this day and age, the culture that's
come into our country in terms of internet pornography, in terms of
temptations to self gratification, you know, both boys and girls, how to
overcome some of these temptations and maybe some in bondage to a habit,
can you help us from your own personal experience? Yeah, I would say
that to be tempted is absolutely normal and when you come to a certain
age, early teens, a natural curiosity comes in all boys and girls
concerning sex, sexual matters, they feel aroused sexually, they want to
know more about how the other sex's sexual organs function and it's
curiosity and there is where the devil plays up on that and people want
to peep through keyholes and bathroom windows and all types of things
because of this curiosity. I mean you do a lot of unchristian things out
of curiosity first to see what someone else's naked body looks like and
pornography begins like that. Curiosity and then you begin to try and
stimulate yourself.

You know the only thing that can help in such situation is to think of
Jesus and say what would Jesus do? He was tempted exactly like us as a
young man. He understands it all. He doesn't condemn us but I if you
were to ask yourself would Jesus do this? Don't ask me for an answer.

You will know the answer in your heart immediately. Concerning any
habit, I don't have to make a list of habits because the Bible doesn't
make a list of habits. The Bible says anyone 1 John 2 6 anyone who says
he's a Christian must live like Jesus lived and Jesus said follow me.

He kept on saying follow me. And I know the times when I've been in
tremendous pressure of temptation and I've said Lord Jesus when you were
in Nazareth as a young man you were tempted exactly like I'm being
tempted now and I want to follow you. I haven't always succeeded.

Many times I've failed. I've failed so many times that my failure has
taught me two things. My failures have taught me that I can never get
victory on my own.

It is impossible. I need the power of God's Holy Spirit. And God allowed
me to fail so many times that I knew I couldn't get victory.

Secondly, God taught me never never to despise another human being who
has failed. I tell you this is my witness. There are people who have
come and confessed the most horrible things to me.

I don't despise them. Because I have learned one secret that my flesh is
the same as everybody else's flesh. If I did not do it maybe it was like
the cobra inside the cage.

That's all. That's the only difference between me and that person. That
cobra was in the wild, I was in the cage.

But my flesh is just as bad as that person's. It is impossible for me to
despise a human being today. Not only a believer, a human being.

I can challenge the devil on that. You try and get me to despise a human
being because they sin so badly. Impossible.

Not because I have done all those things that they have done. But
because I know that my flesh is the same. So, I don't despise anyone.

I believe that if we keep the standard. This is what Jesus' standard
was. I say, Lord, I want to be that.

I want to be that. I would say to all of you young people, fight the
battle. Fight the battle.

Repent of your past. Ask the Lord to cleanse you from your past and say,
Lord, I'm never going to give up till I become more and more walking as
you walked on this earth. You'll find your standards become higher as
time goes on.

And you give up a lot of things that don't help you one bit. Movies that
you watch, you'll stop watching such movies. You'll become more pure in
the type of books you read.

It may take time. Don't worry if it takes time. But fight the battle,
fight the battle, fight the battle.

If you have a longing for purity, it will go exceptionally well with you
even if you're going to fail for the next ten years. Fight the battle.
Don't ever give up.

That's my advice to you. Now, failure in this area, how can a young
person keep from being condemned, feeling unaccepted before God? No, the
thing is there's enough in scripture to show that Jesus loved even women
who fell into adultery, Mary Magdalene, that sinful woman who was the
most well known prostitute in the city, Luke 7. Jesus said she loves
much. So there are many examples.

The thief on the other loves sinners. He loves us and he hates the sin
because he knows it's destroying us. And that's why he hates it.

And he knows that you can do nothing about your past mistakes. That's
the wonderful thing. You see, men look at you and condemn you for your
past mistakes.

Jesus never does that because he knows you can't do anything about it.
He only says turn and feel sorry. Many times the failures of the past,
many are harassed by it.

Yeah, I know. But that's because of two reasons. First of all, it's the
devil who keeps reminding you of your past.

And I'll tell you something. If you have not really repented of your
past, you know, there are some people who have done certain wrong things
in the past and they justify it. You know, like Adam, well, my wife gave
it to me and it was these circumstances.

As long as you justify yourself, you deserve to be harassed. I tell you
that. You deserve to be harassed for the next 50 years or all your life
and probably to go to hell if you justify yourself.

But the moment you stop justifying yourself and say, Lord, it was
nobody's fault, it was my fault 100%. The moment you begin to say that,
you'll be justified. And you'll go home rejoicing because your sin is
forgiven.

And you say, Lord, I don't want to do it again. I really don't want. I
believe that many people are harassed because they are putting part of
the blame on somebody else who caused them to sin.

For example, a sexual sin. Supposing somebody has fallen into any type,
if it's not adultery, any type of sexual sin. And you say, well, but it
was also his fault.

You deserve to go to hell. Whoever you are. You deserve to go to hell.

And I believe God will be justified in sending you to hell. But if you
say, Lord, it was my fault 100%. You'll be justified.

Now, if a person, that's the first step. Stop blaming other people. Take
the blame 100% yourself.

And then, next thing you need to do is believe that the blood of Jesus
has cleansed you. That when he says, if you confess your sin, he's
faithful just to forgive us, cleanse us from all unrighteousness, and
your sins and iniquities, I'll remember no more. It means no more.

It's finished. I believe the biggest problem is getting past that first
hurdle of trying to put the blame on somebody else. If you got past
that, the second step is believe that what Jesus has said, his blood has
cleansed you completely, you're justified just as if you've never
committed that sin before, never ever committed that sin, but be
careful.

In the area where you have fallen in the past is the area you have to be
very careful about in future. If you were a drunkard, avoid anything. I
can go near a never liked the taste of alcohol even when I was in the
Navy, but another person who is a drunkard, any amount of cigarettes in
front of me, don't tempt me because I never liked smoking, I never did
it, but the areas where we have fallen, those are the areas we have to
be very careful about.

Extremely careful, sure, otherwise that's the area where you are prone
for the rest of your life. You are prone. You have to be very careful.

Avoid such places. Can you suggest some practical steps for anyone who
is in bondage to a sexual habit? Some practical steps? See, the first
thing is you must confess your sin wholly to God, repent, and if that
does not help you enough then go to some brother, elder brother, mature
elder brother in whom you have total confidence that he will not sneak
on you, he will not look down on you, he will not go and tell your
stories to other people, and pray with that person. I know there are
very few elder brothers like that in the world, so a lot of people, I
don't know what to suggest, I say, go to God then.

You say sister to an elder sister? Yes. Not many seem to get out of this
discouragement, you know, because of past failures. Yeah, they must
believe the word, they must believe that Jesus' blood cleanses us and
justifies us.

I want to speak more about that later, about justification, but that's
very important. Well, time is up. One last question.

Can you tell how the young people can be preserved from messing up their
lives? I think for many of you who are in fellowship in a church, if you
have God-fearing elders, please listen to me very carefully, if you have
God-fearing elders, and you get into conflict with those elders, you can
be pretty sure the fault is with you. Almost certainly. You haven't been
to other denominations.

You know, I have sometimes suggested to people, actually suggested to
people, you should go and spend six months in another assembly. You will
come back to CFC with tremendous gratitude. Here you sit and criticize
the elder brothers and the elder sisters, this is wrong, that is wrong,
the other thing is wrong.

The only cure for you is go and try another hospital, go and try another
church, and then you will appreciate. But very few people listen to me.
If they did, it would have cured Because their problem is ingratitude.

And ingratitude, Romans chapter 1 says, when people are not thankful,
they begin backsliding. So when you are not thankful for the wonderful
fellowship God has given you in a church, God fearing elders God has
given you, the rich word of God, you begin to take these things for
granted and you are not actually inwardly thankful, your backsliding has
already begun. And that is why I have found that people backslide
quicker in CFC than in any of our other churches because they get more
of God's word here.

And backsliding takes place without even their knowing it. It's
ingratitude which leads to a lack of respect for those who have walked
with the Lord for as many years as you have been born and lived. I'm
amazed how young people who have hardly lived a few years on earth can
treat lightly godly older brothers and sisters who have walked with God
for a much longer time than they have lived on the earth.

Such people, it's very easy to backslide and there's not much you can do
for them until they learn to be grateful. But if you don't have such a
fellowship in such a church, then you must do what I did. Say, Lord, I
want to lean on you.

Seek every opportunity to read, listen to tapes, and seek fellowship
whenever you can, like go to a conference or seek fellowship wherever
you can with godly people. But if you're eager and sincere, God can
preserve you. Rozak Sistani, I think, has been very, very helpful.

I'm sure everybody will agree, all that we have heard from both of you.
One last question. One last question.

Each person has a last question. So you first and then Sistani, if you
were to give the last words, supposing you're not going to see these
young people again, or you were leaving this earth, the last words, the
last bit of advice that you will give to young people, what would be,
supposing it was the last breath, the last words that you can ever speak
to young people in your time on this earth, what would be those words,
what would be that advice that you would give us? I would say the thing
that has helped me the most is to fix your eyes on Jesus. NASB
translation is better than looking under Jesus.

Hebrews 12 says fix your eyes on Jesus and run this race. And I think
this means to look at two things. In that verse it says, one, in the
same verse, I'm speaking only from Hebrews 12 too, one, how he took up
the cross and endured the cross and how he's at the right hand of the
throne of God.

Two things. That means one, on earth, I fixed my eyes on how he
suffered, how he endured. And I said, Lord, I want to go that way.

I remember as a young man I prayed to God and said, Lord, every
experience that you went through on earth, if you will give me the honor
and the privilege of going through that experience, I will count it a
tremendous honor. I remember that when I went to court, I was taken to
court by religious people and the Lord said to me, I've gone here before
you, this is an answer to your prayer. And I said, thank you, Lord,
you've given me this honor to experience what you've experienced on
earth.

Boy, this is fantastic. Everything changes its color when you see, fix
your eyes on Jesus. And the second thing is to see him at the right hand
of the throne of God.

He's got absolute authority over all the people who come into your life,
into your circle. Everybody who's troubling you or influences you, your
parents don't understand you, doesn't matter. There's somebody at the
right hand of the throne of God who can control all those people, change
their opinions about you, change your circumstances.

If you can fix your eyes on just Hebrews 12 2, looking at Jesus in his
earthly life and seeing him today having all authority in heaven and
earth, I believe you are okay for the rest of your life. Sister Annie. I
100% agree with what my husband has just said, but I also want to add
like from a woman's side, two good things which are very valuable to us.

One is to be honest about our condition and what we hear. Like we hear
some things in the church, some things which may not be true in our life
yet, maybe some fault and at that time be honest and say, yes Lord, that
is true, that is my condition. Don't get upset but accept it and be
honest about it and bring it to the Lord and say, Lord, please help me
to change that habit or that failure which I have, that weakness which I
am seeing or that besetting sin, whatever it is.

Honesty is one thing I can add to what my husband has said and the
second thing is to have a spirit of submission which is very valuable
for a girl because submission in the home to our parents, first of all,
in the church, to the elders, sometimes we think like, I have noticed
that some sisters who are here and whatever they heard in the church,
they used to always say, I don't agree with what we hear because in this
day and age we can't just, you know, they had their own comments about
it and their critical attitude about what they heard and I found that
those sisters either have left the church or it hasn't gone well with
them. So a spirit of submission is really a valuable thing which we
should long for and keep with us all our lives. Thank you very very
much.

Thank you. We praise the Lord, we praise the Lord that we not only have
Jesus who has gone before us, we have examples on this earth, we have
role models to follow. We praise the Lord from Razak and Sustani.

Let's give thanks to God. Dear father and everyone, we want to thank you
Lord for this afternoon. Thank you for this good time we had together
Lord.

Thank you for the examples you have given us Lord. Thank you for those
who have gone ahead of us Lord. We pray that you will help everyone of
them Lord.

We pray that you will bless them and encourage them Lord. Keep them from
all the snares of the devil Lord. We pray that you will give them
boldness and courage and hope and faith Lord and fill them with the Holy
Spirit Lord.

Lead them into all your fullness Lord Jesus. Thank you also Lord for
Razak and Sustani Lord and for their example and their sacrifice and for
all that they have done for us Lord. We want to praise you and give you
thanks for this afternoon.

In Jesus name we pray. Amen. Let's start without any delay.

Who's the first one? We're going to ask the first question. Just raise
your hand. I think what with a lot of young people today it's not that
they don't respect the elders and they don't have the confidence in the
elders to share those things with them and they really respect them but
a lot of times they feel there's a cultural gap, a generational gap of
like 30, 40 years and things are different back in the 1960's than it is
now and they're not sure if the elders can relate to that and so they
want to have someone else to go to and then the people they want to go
to are not as mature.

How do you resolve an issue like that and who would you go to in such a
situation and is it wise to just try and resolve it on your own? Yeah,
the question is that since there's so much difference in age between
many elders and young people, sometimes 40 years, and also between
parents and their children sometimes, and they can be a complete
difference in understanding, you know, the culture has changed in India
also, that it was not like people got married 40 years ago, the people
get married today, even in India. So sometimes an elder is a bit part of
the old school and feels that anything new is unscriptural or wrong,
what do you do? Well, can you go to that person because the person will
never understand because he won't be willing to think like today's young
people think. See, I've had to face this problem in relation to music.

I remember when I was a young person and I listened to even secular
songs, they were usually the slow type where you could follow the words,
whereas today I can't follow the words of any of these songs, there's
something in it, there's some noise there, but I find a lot of young
people can follow the words. They enjoy it also. So I've just felt this
is another generation and I can't expect them to be interested in the
things I was interested in 40 years ago.

If it is not sinful, now I believe that rock music is, there's a demonic
element in rocks, drugs and demons go together. So I feel that there's,
I mean there's lines here, but if it doesn't go as far as that, just
because something is fast and it doesn't, is not what I'm used to, does
not mean it's wrong. I believe that in Christian singing we must
understand words.

So the same thing applies here also, that cultures have changed and I
personally believe that it's very difficult for traditional Indian
parents to change their way of thinking and it's true that some elders
also do not change with the times. They're not flexible. It's a fact.

And I agree that it becomes difficult for a young person if he's going
to deal with a very inflexible elder brother. I hope our elders will be
more flexible. The only thing to avoid is sin and even what is worldly.

You know, I know in some of our churches, in other places, there was a
time when they felt the salwar kameez, churidar is all worldly and now
of course their own daughters are wearing it. So things have changed. I
never had a problem with it.

I always felt the salwar kameez was more modest than the big midriffs
that Indian women exhibit with a sari and blouse. But there are many
things like that, you know. Some people feel that if you wear a pant, a
girl wears a pant, that's wrong.

I don't have a problem with it personally. To me there's only one rule
in scripture, be modest and be simple. That's about all there is that
I'm bothered about.

So in the same thing in this matter of getting boy-girl relationships,
see we have to respect the culture we are in and that means, to me the
principle is this, Jesus came to earth, Hebrews 2.17, he was made in all
things like his brothers. So that means he dressed like the Jewish
people around him dressed. Jesus is our example, fixing our eyes on
Jesus is the secret.

So how did he do it? He lived like the Jewish people, he ate like the
Jewish people, he did everything like all the people around him. If the
others had a beard, he had a beard. If the others had long hair, he had
long hair.

If they had short hair, he had short hair. So it's all, he was like the
people and so as, and he dressed like them. So I believe without being
sinful, without doing anything sinful in the society and So I believe
that the best example is that that in the society and culture you are
living in, if you are living in a western country, you do it another
way.

If you are living in Bangalore, you do it another way than you do in
some village in, some small village in India. You can't, you know, just
like the missionaries who came from America, one of the big mistakes
that a lot of missionaries, particularly in Nagaland and all that they
made, was they brought along with the gospel their American culture and
changed those, the way they dress and all that, which was wrong. The
best missionaries are those who became like the local culture and became
one with the society around them without sinning and so I believe that
the, a spiritually minded person will follow Jesus and adapt to the
culture in which they are living, whether it's a city or a village or a
western country or an eastern country and there seek to be a witness for
Christ without doing anything that will spoil their testimony and
adapting and if a culture changes, for example, Bangalore is very
different today than it was say 40 years ago and, or even 28 years ago
when CFC started.

So, we have tried in CFC, I don't know whether we have fully succeeded,
to adapt to this changing culture around us in this city because we
believe that our younger generation must be a witness in that culture
and if there were things that were considered wrong, not sinful but
wrong by society, we'd avoid it 25 years ago. Today we don't avoid it
because society doesn't think it's wrong. There's nothing, there was no
sin then and there was no sin now.

But where people don't understand it, then I would say there is a
limitation and you don't have to go to an elder brother but maybe go to
an older person who is willing to listen to you. A married person who's
got a little maturity and who can advise you. And we hope that, among us
elders here anyway, that we want to be more flexible and adaptable.

The Holy Spirit is always flexible. Not rigid, you know like we were
considering in the picnic that the place in the Bible where it says
somebody was stiff was that demon possessed boy, he became stiff. And
demon possession always makes a person stiff but the Holy Spirit makes
us very sensitive and flexible to the culture we are in.

So I would say that if you can't find, if you find an elder or a parent
who is rigid, well, respect them but consider whether their objections
are to prevent you from becoming sinful and worldly or that there may be
a point in what they say, don't just reject it out of hand saying, oh,
you're old fashioned. Consider the point and if you still feel that's
because of prejudice, then seek the counsel of other godly people whom
you know who may be a little more flexible or a little more suited to
the culture you're in. Okay.

My question is not really relevant to what we were just now talking
about but I was thinking in terms of what you said earlier about first
love and loving the Lord and I think it's probably true of a lot of us
who at some point in our time in our life where the Lord met with us and
we really loved him passionately and he was the first desire of our
hearts and we have drifted from that and we know the word of God says
repent then you may not be your first love but sometimes you don't know
what that means what are the steps you have to take. Can you give us
some practical thoughts on this and what exactly does that mean to
repent at that point? Well, you know, I find ultimately you have to
trust the Lord to keep you because the Bible says he's able to keep you
from falling. In fact, you know, nowadays when people go to all these
meetings where people lay hands on them and make them fall, I say I'll
give you a verse, he's able to keep you from falling and he has kept me
from falling in more ways than one but apart from that, ultimately don't
trust in yourself.

Say, Lord, only you can keep me from falling away from my first love.
Please preserve me and I have found in my life, we have to do our part
but also trust the Lord. My part for myself has been to never forget the
sins I have committed in my life which only God and I know.

All of us, every single one sitting here, there are sins in your life
even if you are a young person that your parents don't know, your
husband doesn't know, your wife doesn't know, you don't have to confess
to any of them. They are forgiven, they are blotted out, God does not
remember them anymore, they are forgiven. They need not condemn you one
bit because he doesn't remember them, but you must remember them not for
condemnation but to remember the pit from which God pulled you out.

That will make you immensely grateful to God and it will never make you
despise another person and the more you realize and constantly remember
how much you have been forgiven. If it brings you condemnation, stop
thinking about it. Immediately stop, turn to some other subject.

But if you know surely God has forgiven you, it's gone, then I can think
about it because I know God has forgiven me and I think about it only
for one reason, I say Lord how much you have forgiven me, how much you
have hidden from the eyes of others, I want to hide the sins of other
people, I don't want to reveal them, I don't want to be a gossip. You
know people have told me so many things and nobody, not even my wife,
not even Ian or Newton, ever hear from me what somebody has told me. It
lives and dies with me.

Because God has hidden my sins, I hide the sins of others, if I know
something about somebody else, I will never say it. If God himself
exposed it, that's his business but I will never reveal it to anyone.
That's one help and secondly it reminds me of how much I have been
forgiven which makes me love the Lord more and the other thing as I said
earlier also is to meditate much on how Jesus loves us, the immense love
of God and how we hurt him every time we do something violating his law.

So these are some of the things that help us to preserve us in our first
love and I find also that reading, I don't read many books, I only read
something that really challenges my heart. I am not interested in
English, I am interested in something that challenges my heart. I was
just reading last week something by Tozer that really challenged my
heart and every now and then but it's God who brings that across my path
at a time when I need it and the other thing is even a small sin, you
really repent seriously and ask God to forgive you.

Sometimes if I have just spoken a little sharply to someone somebody at
a petrol filling station or a shop or a vegetable man or a porter or an
auto rickshaw driver, I have tremendous remorse over it. It means Lord
that was not good. I don't want to ever speak like that to another human
being and that God sees there a desire to be absolutely like Jesus, a
remorse.

Nobody needs to see it, it's just between you and God and these are the
things that preserve us in our passionate love for Jesus Christ. Okay.
We have a question here.

It says, you know, being Christians, being committed Christians after
marriage sometimes, we feel it difficult to understand each other. So
maybe we can ask both Brazac and Satyani to give us It's almost
impossible for one person to understand another completely. But I think
we should try to, I mean, from a wise point of view, we can say, express
our opinion and then leave it.

Maybe… I think your husband eats too fast. I think we should And then,
if it's not an important thing, I feel that most of the things which we
think husbands need to understand, I found that they are not all that
important, that we have to convince them and convince them. Because
after some time, I think it was not all that important to, after all,
not a matter of life and death.

So I find that there are less and less things which I need to… Threaten
me out on. Which works me up. Yeah, you know, one of the best
definitions of marriage I have heard is, two imperfect people
imperfectly related.

That's the best definition of marriage. Two imperfect people,
imperfectly joined and imperfectly related. But in that mutual
imperfection, we learn to bear with one another.

You know, it's not a matter of marriage. Even in the church, when we are
conceited and proud, we think, oh, I have to bear so much with my wife
or my husband or with that brother. And we don't realize that the other
person has, that proves that the other person has had to bear with me
too.

And that's been a tremendous help to me, to know, particularly in the
church, when I think of some person's behavior, that because I'm not
like that. I say, well, my behavior must be working that person up too.
Also, I don't realize it.

I'm sure that person doesn't realize it. So there are many things which
we do in married life, which we don't realize that each has to bear with
one another. And in that process, God sanctifies both of us.

There's a lovely verse in Proverbs which says, iron sharpens iron. So,
you know, you go to the can only sharpen iron with iron. So that's what
happens in mutual relationships, we bear with one another.

We, as young people, we hear a lot, a lot of messages about coping with
failure and coping with criticism. But on the other side, how do we cope
with success and people praising us? It's easy to say, okay, don't let
it go to your head, but eventually it will happen to any of us. How do
we cope with it? I think that's important also, because there are a few,
you know, even in Corinth, Paul said, not many of you are wise and
intelligent.

There are a few in every church. And that's something we have to cope
with. Particularly, I would say that a person who is doing exceptionally
well in any area, whether in school or in athletics or in college or in
a profession, succeeding in a business or anything, the mark of
godliness is would be, first of all, personally, to recognize that it's
not because he is spiritual that he is successful in the world.

Because, I mean, we have enough examples in the world of very
intelligent people. The most intelligent people in the world are not
Christians. The most successful businessmen and scientists are not
Christians.

Some of them are atheists. So, if we recognize that this type of earthly
success, whether in school or college or business or science or
anything, is not a mark of spirituality. It's something god has given to
some people different and the Christian who is very clever and
intelligent has an opportunity to show that, yeah, god has got some
people who are clever and intelligent also who do very well in their
profession and who are still ordinary Christians.

I mean, we feel that in CFC, nobody should know, for example, who is
what profession or who is coming first in the class or who is coming
last in the class. I mean that you shouldn't be able to see by their
behavior that there is any difference. Nobody should be able to find out
who is earning so much and who is earning less.

Then, you know, there is a, then you know that's the body of Christ
where each member values the other and the other is, I believe that if
you are very successful and intelligent, you should, you have to be very
careful that you never make another person feel small by anything you
say or you don't dominate a conversation. For example, supposing by
God's grace, you never have committed adultery in your whole life.
That's a wonderful thing.

But I would never boast about that because, you know, you can make
somebody else who happened to fall into that feel very small. It's the
same as, you know, trying to boast about your intelligence. I mean, if
God has preserved you, okay, fine, leave it before God.

Be, the principle of Jesus. He was made like his brothers. He never made
other, to me the most wonderful thing about Jesus is he never made
anybody feel small in his presence.

Whether they were sinners or stupid or dumb. Even if the disciples asked
some stupid question, he would answer it and never make another person,
if you are very capable, never make another. It will make an effort, you
know, because there is a tendency to show off your knowledge, to
dominate a conversation, to know the answers and to give it, I know I
have had to battle this myself and sometimes if you are in a midst of a
group of people where others are perhaps not so intelligent, don't give
them the impression that you know the answers.

Sometimes you just need to keep quiet. And even if somebody has, you
know, some things people talk about, it's not so important whether
everybody gets your opinion. So, we have to be very careful and the
other thing is, try your best not to, you know, keep on talking about
your abilities.

And I'll tell you something, if you really are serious, you young
people, go to somebody who is a good friend of yours. If you are a
sister, go to another sister, if you are a brother, go to some other
brother in whom you have confidence. Young brother, your age, you know,
because the elders may not know what you talk about.

When you are in the midst of young people and ask them, do you find
something in me that you need to tell me about? You know, you find there
is some habit in me that I'm not aware of, perhaps you can help me. And
somebody may tell you, you talk too much about yourself. Oh, I tell you
honestly, sometimes we don't realize it.

You know, I've had to be corrected at times when I interrupt people in
their conversation. It is a habit, I just say, Lord, I want to get over
that. We've got unconscious habits which we have acquired.

You know, I ride a scooter, I ride a scooter and I keep telling myself,
you got to go slow. You got to slow down. You are not young now.

There are certain habits which are not necessarily evil but which are
not good. So, much more in mutual relationships, never make another
person feel small and say, go before God frequently and say, Lord, this
is nothing spiritual about this. It is just you have made me, I want to
use it for your glory.

If you use it well and good. But I just want to live like an ordinary
brother among other things. Okay.

So, this question is actually a little bit fun. There is supposed to be
journalists here, so I am going to play the role of a journalist from
Russia. And I have read your books.

I write for the Moscow Times. And I have read your books. And Mrs.
Tunin, I have read a book of yours, The Lady's Viewpoint.

It also translates nicely into Russian. The question is, the people in
Russia want to know, what do you do for fun? That is, when you are not
reading the Bible and praying and eating and sleeping, do you do other
things or would you recommend other things that are fun? What is your
recommendation of what people should be listening to music and, you
know, watching programs on TV? Practical tips for how people might
handle times outside of the time when they are in the meetings in the
church? I didn't do the Russian accent well. Okay.

Well, I shall answer that question as best as I can. Since you do not
understand English so well, I shall explain. We are having fun.

That is one way of And it is very important that people are free with
you in all these things. And sometimes, you know, I don't want to
horrify you by some things that we do in our country, but something
which is clean and funny and makes us laugh, I believe it is laughter is
good medicine for all people. It is good medicine for all people.

It is good medicine for all people. It is good medicine It is good
medicine for all people. It is good medicine It is good medicine for all
people.

It is good medicine You have to do it according to your culture, and I
do not make rules for other countries. You have to do it, they say when
in Russia do like the Russians, and in Rome do like the Romans. That is
what I believe.

You know, in certain countries, it is perfectly alright for a boy and a
girl to go together, and that is okay for me, but if it is in your
culture, that creates a problem for your Christian testimony, then you
must be very careful in that area. But I believe in good, clean fun. I
believe in humor is a gift of God.

And we must enjoy ourselves and I believe particularly older people like
myself, the only way if you are an older person and you want to really
get down to the level of younger people, you must learn to have fun with
them. Then only they will be free to ask you many things and believe
that you are at their level. Now I always seek to be at the level of
little people.

If I speak to children, I speak to them just like children. I have an
Indian wife, by the way. She has not picked up my accent as yet.

So there's a demonstration of a cross-cultural marriage already. So
there's freedom if you want to take that freedom. But down to earth
matters, I think, for young people.

I found when my children were growing up, it was a good thing for them
to play games because I found that when they came back in the evening,
the thing that they would look forward to the most was playing after
they came back from school. So playing games, whatever games they like,
indoor games, outdoor games, that's very good and that brings a lot of,
builds up friendship and bonding between the family members and friends.
And if you like music, learning to play some musical instrument and
joining with people who enjoy music and like we did this afternoon,
those are two of the things which I can think of.

When I talk to girls and when I see movies, you don't preach against me
in the meeting? Dear brother, do not try to imitate my accent. Because
when you try to imitate my accent, I do not understand what you are
saying. Please be yourself like I am myself.

I speak in my language now. When I do what I like, do preach against me
in the meetings. Okay, we'll hand the mic over to the other brother,
right? No.

Okay, when you speak in the meetings, do you, when you do what you like,
do I speak? I'm sorry, I didn't clarify that. Supposing as a young
brother I talk to the girls or I watch movies, do you preach against
that in the meetings? If I, you see, if you are a shepherd, you have a
responsibility to speak against anything that is wrong in a church. Even
if, the clearest example is in Corinthians where the family of Chloe
wrote to Paul saying these things are going on in the church in Corinth.

Paul said, oh, is that so? And he wrote the whole letter of Corinthians
about how to behave with women, about marriage, about speaking in
tongues, about the man who was living in sin. He answered all those
questions. So, it's like, you know, think of an elder brother like a
father.

If you know that one of your children is doing something wrong, would
you speak to him about it? Or if you find there is a general danger that
all your children are facing when you sit around the dining table, would
you talk to them about it or not? Of course you will. And so, I have no
hesitation, for example, if I hear that somebody in the church is doing
something wrong and I feel that is a general danger for everybody, I
would have no hesitation in speaking about it openly. And I would say, I
would even introduce myself, I have heard that somebody is doing this
and that's not a good habit and I felt it is good to talk to everybody
about this subject.

You know, we shouldn't get this idea that I only hear from heaven and I
speak. God can speak to me through my brothers. God spoke to Paul
through the family of Chloe, you read in 1 Corinthians 1.11, who wrote a
letter to him saying these things are wrong in the church in Corinth.

God told Paul, speak about it. He didn't hear from heaven. He knew the
answer was from heaven, but the pointing out of something wrong in the
church came through Chloe.

So, I have no problem if somebody tells me that in some particular
church this thing is going wrong and I go there for meetings, I say,
okay, I am going to deal with that subject. You know, there are some
people who say, don't tell me about anything that is going wrong here, I
will listen to God. Paul did not tell Chloe that.

Paul was not super spiritual. He was down to earth. He respected Chloe
and he knew that God would speak through Chloe.

So, if I feel that you are, I hear that some of you are watching movies,
I would not like to expose you by name, but I will speak about it
generally because if it doesn't apply to you, don't worry. But I would
have no hesitation to speak about it because it is helpful to people to
warn people about lot of movies are like cobras. They will sting you and
destroy you.

They put images into your mind that remain there forever. So, you got to
be careful. Like I said, you know, if you are watching something clean
and good, sometimes you don't know whether it is clean and good and then
if you have had one or two sad experiences like that, then you be
careful about those type of movies.

So, you know, I believe that entertainment is good. We need relaxation,
we go for picnics like we play games and I say we live in a world with
such tremendous tension that for some people the only release they get
from that tension is say watching sport on television or some type of
relaxation. I have nothing against it.

I lived in another age when I was a young man 50 years ago to say that I
did not watch television when I was young. It doesn't, I mean, that's
the way I was. The age was different.

We are in a different age today. If you find it relaxes, the only thing
I say is be careful of sin. Be careful of anything that pollutes your
mind.

Please be careful because I tell you it will destroy your usefulness to
God. So if you are very eager to please God, I am not at one extreme
where I say we don't want any entertainment. There are some people who
believe that.

I say fine, I respect that conviction. I really respect those who differ
with me. I am just expressing my conviction and I am not asking anybody
to follow me.

I am just saying I believe that in a world of tension today we need
relaxation. Some people find their relaxation by, you know, just going
to prayer and some people don't find it that way. So you must find it
your way and not judge other people.

Give freedom. Anybody from the assistance? I am not from Russia. I am
from Singapore.

So I have a Singapore accent. I understand you have boys only, only
sons? I think so. I have heard it is four lovely sons.

It is a bit unfortunate you don't have any daughters. I mean I am sure
it is not unfortunate. It is probably God's will.

But just suppose you had a daughter, what would be some of the things
you would allow her to do or don't allow her to do? What would be some
restrictions that you would have? Just your opinion. You want to answer
that Ian? Okay. I have often thought about that.

You know, as my sons have grown up in CFC from a young age, I know and
they also knew that they were very carefully observed by other people. I
know one brother who came, who many years later after my children had
left home, told me, do you know brother Zach, every time I came for a
conference I was observing your children. And I think they were aware of
it too, how they dress, what shoes they wear.

I think any elder brother faces that. His children. Any elder brother
faces that with his children.

His children of elder brothers face that. It is part of the price they
pay for eldership. That other people, some are critical, some expect the
children to live up to certain standards, don't allow them to grow up
normally.

In fact, one person told my wife, your children will never be able to
grow up, have a normal development in India. They will have to go
somewhere else because everywhere they go they say, Oh, you are Zach
Minnan's sons and they expect him to behave in a certain way. So, if I
had a daughter or daughters, I think they would have faced extreme
difficulty.

Because, you know, dress is a much more important thing for women, even
the Bible speaks about it, than for men. And a lot of things that
today's teenagers would accept as normal and which is accepted as normal
in churches, my daughter would have been a teenager 20 years ago or 18
years ago when I would have accepted it. But a lot of people wouldn't
have accepted it and I think she would have had a tremendous struggle.

But, I don't know, I have, lot of people think I am a very strict
person. I am strict when it comes to sin. But I am not strict when it
comes to anything that has no connection with sin.

I don't believe worldliness is in a person's dress unless it's immodest.
I don't believe worldliness is in a particular way you fix your hair or,
it's a spirit in your mind. That's what determines worldliness.

And I think I would have told my daughter, don't worry about what people
think about you. But seek to please Jesus. Always dress in a way,
supposing you are going for a walk with Jesus into town.

How would you dress if Jesus was, you have fixed an appointment with
Jesus and you are going to walk with him through going shopping with
Jesus one day. You are going to dress in a way appropriate to walk with
him or you are going for a visit somewhere or you are going to the
meeting or you are going for a wedding. You are going for the wedding
along with Jesus.

I think it will make a difference in the way you dress or the things you
talk about. Think if Jesus is there. So that's the advice I would give
to that person and say, don't be too bothered about what other people
think about you because, you know, there will always be some people to
criticize you.

You know the story of the man and his son who wanted to sell their
donkey in the market. Well, if some of you don't know, I will tell you.
They took the donkey to the market and they were walking by the side of
the donkey and some people said, what stupid people they are.

They are taking a donkey to the market, at least one of them can ride on
the donkey. So the man said, hey, that's a good idea. So he sat on the
donkey.

Then some people said, hey, look at this old man making his poor boy
walk and he himself is sitting like a Maharaja on the donkey. So he got
off and his son sat on the donkey. Then some people said, look at this
smart young fellow making his poor father walk like that and he is
sitting on the donkey like a Maharaja.

So they both sat on the donkey. Then some people said, look at these
fellows, they are making the poor donkey suffer so much with both of
them sitting on it. So they carried the donkey on their head.

And as they were crossing a bridge, the donkey kicked and fell into the
river. That was the end. They couldn't sell their donkey.

So that's what happens when you listen to what this person says and what
that person says and the other person says, you will finally carry the
donkey on your head and lose it. So I would say, I am not saying don't
bother at all. I think you should be concerned about what your parents
say.

But basically, think of Jesus. Fix your eyes on Jesus and say, Lord
Jesus, if I were coming to meet you, how would I dress? Somebody asked
me, what should I wear for my wedding? I say, just think you are going
to meet Jesus. How would you dress if you are going to meet him? I make
no rules.

Go to meet Jesus and dress like that. Dress is an important thing. And
be careful, I would also tell my daughter, be careful about the type of
friends you have.

Even among Christians, there can be people who are always following the
latest fashions and who are always talking about various things. They
may be Christians and okay, don't judge them. I would tell my daughter,
don't judge any of those young sisters in the church because that way
you will defile yourself also.

But don't follow them. If you don't feel that way, don't, for the sake
of being accepted into their company, don't dress like them and talk
like them and imitate their accent. No, no, no, be yourself.

God wants you to be yourself. That's what I would tell her. And rejoice
in the fact that God has accepted you as yourself.

If you are not as pretty as somebody else or you are not as fair as
somebody else, you are not clever as somebody else, just rejoice that
Jesus has accepted you. Those are some of the things I would tell a
daughter of mine. Sister Annie.

Daughters, I don't have daughters but whether sons or daughters, I think
a mother can build up fellowship with the daughter because the daughter
is more at home. And being a friend to the daughter, as a mother, I can
teach her all the values. Like if I make a lot of rules, don't comb your
hair like this and don't dress like that and put your sari like this and
cover like this and I keep on giving her a lot of instructions, she will
get fed up of me.

But if I give her general rules like you must be modest, you must seek
to please Jesus above everybody else and don't seek to be popular among
your friends. And just give her some general principles that will guide
her throughout her life and prepare her for whatever she has to face.
Because suppose God takes me away from this earth, my daughter must be
able to survive and be a godly woman.

She should grow up to be a godly woman. So I should build those, give
her those principles and leave her in the hands of God, the Holy Spirit
to teach her and bring her up in a godly way. Anyone else? Any other
question? Brother, how can we get over the fear of praying in a meeting
or sharing maybe in a Wednesday meeting or something.

It's a fear that many young people have. Maybe we have read something
through the week and we want to share it. But we are scared of many
things.

Or maybe just open our mouth and pray to God. How can we get over that
fear? I spent most of my twenties defeated with different sins. So I
felt that that gave me no right to get up on speed because I took the
verse, if you love me, keep my commandments.

I didn't feel I was keeping all those commandments because I wanted to
sin that I was keeping all those habitual sins. So now as I've got more
victory, I've got more boldness. Now that I've got more boldness, I've
realized that my victory came because of my disdain with it.

So I feel like I could have had that boldness in all my twenties even
though I was still struggling, even though I was falling. So how do I
come with that boldness to speak and to share if not a victory but a
false impotence to keep me from sinning more of them. Very good
questions.

And I believe that we should never be hesitant to testify. So long as
you're not pretending. So long as you don't get up and say, I have
victory over all sins.

I mean that's a lie. See, you don't have to get victory over sin before
you testify. You don't have to get victory over sin before you pray.

The Apostle Peter got up on the day of Pentecost as a thirty-year-old or
thirty-three-year-old young man filled with the Holy Spirit and he spoke
boldly. He made a lot of mistakes thereafter. Paul made a lot of
mistakes thereafter.

And these things are written for our instruction that I believe that
even in the coming year, 2004, I may do some stupid things but I'm not
going to stop testifying according to the light I have but I'll never
pretend. I mean there was a time when I used to pretend about thirty
years ago and I was a backslider then. But I don't pretend.

I mean one of the decisions I took many years ago is I won't pretend.
But that doesn't mean I can testify only when I've got victory. You
know, when you get up to pray or testify, the devil says, Hey, you're
the fellow who got lost your temper there or you did something wrong
there.

You say, yeah, that's right. I'm the same fellow. But I repented and
I've asked God to forgive me and I'm here getting up to pray because I
believe that Jesus has forgiven me.

I agree with what Sandeep says that there are a lot of people who are
hesitant to get up because they say, hey, I don't have victory yet. We
are clothed in his righteousness and that's why we stand. And even when
we think we've got such a lot of victory, it's only still 10% of our
life.

If only we saw the other 90%, we would really say, Lord, I want to stand
in your righteousness. Sometimes God has shown me a little bit of that
other 90% in my life and I have said, God, forgive me for ever thinking
that I can ever stand with anything other than the righteousness of
Christ. And you know, I believe that sometimes God gives you a little
glimpse, if you're honest, about that other 90% in your life which other
people don't see, which you yourself have not seen.

And then you realize it's only the righteousness of Christ. That means
it was the righteousness of Christ from the day you were born again. You
know, I believe that it is our fault also in the leadership that we have
not spoken sufficiently of he is all my righteousness.

I stand complete in him. That's our fault. I acknowledge my fault there
that I have not preached it enough.

And partly because I thought, oh, you know, I had this idea but I saw so
much worldliness in Christianity and I said this is the result of these
fellows saying I'm righteousness in Christ. Therefore, I threw away the
baby with the bath water. I threw away something good, which is in
scripture.

And I realized and we're coming back, you know. We've steered the car so
much to the right that we've gone way off the road. And we want to come
back to the left, come back to the center of the road and be accepted in
Christ.

And that's the thing that gives us boldness. If you have not confessed
your sin, if you have not repented then of course you shouldn't pray.
But how long does it take to confess or repent? Supposing in a breaking
of bread meeting you're terribly convicted about what you did wrong.

You know, you can still break bread because how long does it take to
repent and say you say, but I haven't set it right. Zacchaeus did not
set everything right. It probably took him ten years to pay back all the
four times.

But the Lord said, salvation has already come. Salvation came as soon as
he took that decision. Not after ten years when he had paid everything
back.

So once you have taken a decision, Lord, I don't want to sin, do that
again. You may do it tomorrow, so what? You don't want to do it. You
know, when people come to me for baptism, I ask them one question.

Do you want to sin again? Even once? I say, now listen. I'm not asking
you, will you sin again? I'm asking, do you want to sin again? Even
once. And I say, the answer is no, you're ready to be baptized.

Because, I'm not saying, even I can't say today, I will never sin again.
But, boy, long long ago, I could say, I don't want to sin again, even
once. I'm sure many of you sitting here, perhaps almost most of you, say
that, and I believe, don't let the devil rob you of your confidence.

And the other thing is, you have to, the only way to get over fear is by
actually facing it. You know, I would never have discovered, how much of
honor seeking there was in my praying, until I actually prayed. I would
pray, and I say, boy, there was, 10% of that prayer was for God, 90% was
for man.

I say, okay Lord, it's going to be 89% tomorrow. Next week, it will be
89%. I work my way.

You know, like climbing a mountain, I tell you, this battle, seeking
honor, will be with us till the end of our life. And, you know, I mean,
today, if you see me a little more free, it's because I've been praying
and speaking in public for more than 40 years. But, I remember the first
time, okay, I'll tell you, I'll confess some of my sins now.

You know, when I was in a brethren assembly, way back 40, 43 years ago,
and they had, in the brethren assembly, you get up and you can get an
opportunity to share before they break your bread for just 3-4 minutes,
and I would think up something really emotionally stirring, and I would
get up, and I would sit down and say, boy, what a, I put in my thumb and
pulled out a plum and said, what a good boy am I. I really felt like
that. And, if somebody came to me after the meeting and said, oh,
Brother Zak, that was so good what I said, you know, I would act humble
and say, yeah, we give the glory to God for that. You know, you say the
right words.

But, boy, I was very conscious that, but I battled it, and I battled it,
and I battled it. I didn't stop. I discovered more of myself.

I prayed, and I discovered myself. I spoke, and I discovered myself, and
I cleansed myself. For example, people serve in the conference.

Do you know what a lot you discover about yourself? All you brothers and
sisters who serve in the conference, haven't you discovered a lot of
your own flesh when you organize some local church function? Yes or no?
Sure, at least five people discovered something in their flesh. Have you
discovered something or not? And that is God's reward to you for your
service. What is the reward? He gave you light on yourself.

He gave you a free scan. Scans cost a lot these days, but God gave you a
free scan. Because you served Him.

But if you had not served Him, and you stay away from taking part in the
conference and doing anything, you don't get any light on yourself. So
how will you get light on yourself and be free from honor-seeking in
praying? By praying. How will you get free from seeking honor in
testifying? By testifying.

That's why some of you have not got free from it after so many years.
Because you don't pray. You don't testify.

And the devil manages to shut your mouth. But I know that from next week
onwards, it's going to be a rush for the pulpit and a rush for prayer.
You know, do you remember the time when those Sri Lankan brothers came
here for a conference some years ago? How nobody got a chance to go and
testify because you couldn't beat them.

Those people who were converted, just one year or so, they used to rush.
The young 12-year-old boys would rush to the pulpit to give their
testimony. And boy, nobody in CFC stood a chance.

CFC people were still sitting and judging themselves while these people
are out. These people are out giving testimony and getting light on
themselves. So be like that.

Brother, you didn't answer the question, the secret of your Christian
life. Yes, that was the question that you asked. You are a very sharp
reporter, sister.

That's true. What you say is absolutely right. He asked me that
question.

I didn't answer it. Tell us your name. Jacqueline.

Jacqueline. Which paper do you represent? Chennai. Oh, Chennai news.

Okay, fine. Okay. You know, I can't really say, I am not trying to be
humble, but I am so conscious of so many things in my life where I am
working out my salvation that I can't talk as if I have got some secret
to my Christian life.

I really feel that God has been tremendously gracious to me, immensely
merciful and I seek to be merciful to others. At the same time, if they
do something to me, I am merciful. If it affects the church, I have to
be strict.

I want to be a lion in the pulpit and a lamb outside the pulpit. Jesus
was a lion and a lamb. But an awareness of my own failings and my own
wretched flesh in which there dwells no good thing.

God, I tell you, God keeps on making me aware of that in so many
situations. So many situations, I keep on discovering, Oh Lord, when
will I ever… These are not necessarily conscious sins, but you know,
unconsciously you hurt somebody, unconsciously you say something which
is not wise or do something. I live with a lot of remorse, not
discouragement, not condemnation, but a lot of remorse and sorrow
particularly when it has affected other people.

Some decision as an elder, I have to take decisions. I brood over it a
lot. I say, Lord, was that absolutely right? Was that Christ-like? It is
a tremendous struggle and that keeps me on my face before God and God
gives me light.

I will tell you honestly, my life is one of continuous repentance. Every
day, God gives me light on so many un-Christ-like things in my speech. I
am almost never happy with the sermon I preached.

I feel that there is something there which is left out or something that
could have been more anointed and I am constantly burdened by… I read
the Acts of the Apostles and say, Lord, we are nowhere near the way
those apostles lived and I am burdened about seeing God work mightily. I
can say that to me, if there is a secret at all, it is the fact that I
have sought for light on my own life from God, very seriously, every
day. And God gives me light and I am immensely thankful to God when he
gives me light on myself because I can judge myself without getting
discouraged.

I will tell you honestly, I never get discouraged. It is years since I
got discouraged. I never condemn myself but I am repenting all the time.

Can you understand that? To repent all the time without ever getting
discouraged, without ever condemning myself because I believe the blood
of Jesus. But it also helps me to have low thoughts about myself. And
then I have been the recipient of tremendous grace.

One other thing, God has told me, when I say that, I mean in my heart,
never evaluate yourself by the success of your ministry. That means my
ministry, the blessing on my ministry is no indication of my life. My
walk with God, you know, there are many who cast out demons in Jesus'
name.

The Lord says, depart from me, you workers of iniquity. So ministry, you
know, many people, other people evaluate me by the success of my
ministry. God said, let them do that.

But you don't evaluate yourself by the success of your ministry anytime.
Evaluate yourself by your walk with me in purity. And that's where I see
my need all the time.

Because my great passion in life is to be like Christ. Stani, would you
like to say something also? My life is ordinary housewife's life. So I
face the things which most mothers and sisters face.

And I face each day with what it comes, like someday maybe an extra
load, somebody may come to me for some help or some phone call may come.
And I ask the Lord for help and say, Lord, today you give me strength to
do what and wisdom to do what I should do. And sometimes I used to, I
mean, when I was younger, I used to imagine myself doing great, I mean,
great things like in a medical profession or big things.

But God has helped me to come down, to be content with the circle which
He has put me in. And He has helped me. And I find that dependence on
the Lord has been the thing which He has taught me and my greatest need
and I thank God for that.

I want to say one more thing. You know, one of the unfortunate, not
unfortunate, but one of the serious things when you are in
responsibility and in a position like I am is, people tend to take
something you say and sometimes it becomes a law for them or sometimes
they use it as an allowance. One has to be very careful these days
because even a few sexual scenes, even one, ten seconds or so, lot of
today's movies have that, can pollute your mind, it can remain there
forever, be extremely, extremely careful.

There is hardly anything that comes out of western countries today which
is, they put that in, without any connection to the story, just to
pollute people's minds and we have to be very, very careful. You know,
our life is like to be like a sharp sword or knife for God. Don't let
it, don't say the knife is there.

Is it becoming blunt? Is it becoming blunt? If blunt is anything you do
or see, blunting your spiritual edge, then what do you gain by it? Find
a relaxation in something that does not blunt your spiritual edge or
does not pollute your mind. There is a question here. I do not come from
a close-knit family and because of this I am not able to handle
friendships and relationships.

Can you advise? Yeah. You know, I don't know brother or sister, Jesus
came from a home. You know, Jesus became like us.

Have you ever heard in your life of anybody who was born in a cow shed?
Even in the slums, nobody is born in a cow shed. I have never in my life
heard of a human being born in the midst of cows and donkeys with all
that tetanus around. Doctors say that the thing that a woman should be
careful about when she gives birth is tetanus.

Anti-tetanus injections they give to every woman when she is delivering.
And a cow shed is the place full of tetanus. Imagine Jesus being born
over there.

Why was he born? Why did God choose that? Because he had to come
underneath everybody. Why did he allow Jesus to suffer the shame of
being considered an illegitimate child? Because they would say nobody
knows who his father is. Have you noticed in some places, he says, Oh,
he is the son of Mary.

When they were happy with him, they would call him the son of Joseph.
When they were angry with him, they would call him the son of Mary. You
know, the very subtle way of insulting, saying we don't know who his
father is.

Notice that in the Gospels. You read that in Luke 4, son of Joseph when
he was happy with them. Or when they despise him, Mark 6, Oh, this is
the son of Mary.

So, he faced that because there are so many illegitimate children in the
world who don't know who their father is. They were born in adultery or
they were born through their parents having premarital sex or something
like that. Okay, so what? Jesus understands that.

And then in the same way, Jesus came from a home where he had four
brothers and at least two sisters. You read that in Mark 6. And they
didn't understand him. So, in a sense, he was a lonely person.

Not at all close-knit. Maybe the others were close-knit. But Jesus was
like a lonely person.

Why? Because he needed to understand someone like you who comes from a
family which is not close-knit. And he understands. What I want you to
see is Jesus is the closest friend that you can ever have.

Because he understands everything that you have gone through. Maybe you
lost a father when you were young. Or you lost a mother when you were
young.

Jesus understands that. I don't know what age Jesus was when Joseph
died. The responsibility fell upon him.

But many many circumstances of your life, he understands even if nobody
else understands. And don't make the circumstances of your life an
excuse for not doing what the Bible tells you to do. You know,
psychologists will say, Oh well, we understand.

You were abused in childhood. Or your mother died. Or your father died.

So, that's forgivable. Rubbish! That's for people who don't know God.
Once you make an excuse, like I told you in the beginning, like Adam,
the moment you make an excuse for your sin, there's very little hope for
you.

But take the blame 100% for your sin, there's tremendous hope for you.
Don't ever ever ever listen to the psychologists who say, Oh that's
because you were abused as a child. Or that's because you became an
orphan.

Or that's because you're from not a close-knit family. You know, these
are all ways by which the devil wants you to feel sorry for yourself.
And do you know that feeling sorry for yourself is a sin? It's like
committing adultery.

Why should I feel sorry for myself? When I've become a child of God in
the midst of multitudes of people who are going to hell, why should
anybody here feel sorry for himself? When you're a child of God, God's
blessed you with every spiritual blessing in heavenly places in Christ,
you come to a church where you heard such wonderful truths, and you feel
sorry for yourself? That is because you're listening to psychologists.
And people who talk, say, No, I'm a child of God. Okay, God, my
circumstances are not the very best, so what? But I can overcome that
and become a greater overcomer.

Supposing you're from a non, not a close-knit family. And you overcome
that handicap. And you become a zealous Christian.

Do you know that you have overcome something which a person from a
close-knit family could not, did not overcome because they were not
tempted in that way. So you become a greater overcomer. The result is,
one day, God will use you to bless somebody who is also from a difficult
family situation.

And you can say, Brother, I understand your situation very well. Sister,
I understand your situation because I'm from that type of situation
myself. So if you've gone through that, or supposing you're an orphan,
had no father and mother, and you didn't feel sorry for yourself.

Say, Well, what can I do if my father and mother died when I was small.
That's not my fault. But I thank God my Lord picked me up and I'm a
child of God.

I'm a happy person. Imagine what a tremendous ministry you'll have to so
many orphans in the world. Telling them, Don't feel sorry for yourself.

I was also from that type of situation. And see what God did with my
life. But if you feel sorry for yourself, and listen to all these
psychologists, and feel sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, you'll just waste
your life.

So, believe that everything, handicap that you have in your life, is an
opportunity to overcome something that will make you a greater
overcomer. Which another person who does not have that to overcome, will
not need. We can have that first.

In my day to day life, without my knowledge, I start thinking highly of
myself. Then suddenly I realized that I was thinking highly of myself.
How can I overcome that? I don't think you can ever overcome that.

Except by practice, over a period of time. You know, it's like, the best
example I can use is, supposing I have lived in this house where I've
lived for 30 years. And supposing next month I shift to another area.

And one day I'm driving down Wheeler Road. And I'm thinking of something
else and I take this turning. And I've gone in here and say, Hey, this
is not my house now.

And I turn around. That's what happens in our thought life. We have
always taken certain turnings towards high thoughts, selfishness, sin.

And then sometimes when we are not careful, we are little careless, we
take that turning again. But it's accidental. And as soon as you realize
it, you turn back and say, I'm going to buy a new house.

That's my old house. I'm not going to go back there again. You don't
have to feel condemned about it.

Over a period of time, you'll automatically, even when you are
unconscious, find your way to your new house. But it takes time. It's
because you are a young Christian and that old house is still pretty
close to your present stage of development.

Gradually, it becomes less and less and less. And sometimes, you know,
pride for example, spiritual pride, comes in a moment. Particularly when
you have done something really well, you feel a little proud about it.

It could be saying something, it could be sharing something that blessed
others, it could be playing a musical instrument, it could be anything.
And you feel proud in a moment, but immediately you say, hey, that's not
the way Jesus went. If you turn from it as soon as you are aware of it,
I believe that's a good sign.

Because you can say, in a sense, you were unconsciously going in that,
you didn't deliberately want to go there, you unconsciously went there
and suddenly you pulled yourself back. That's a good sign, that you
pulled yourself back. And gradually, it will become better and better,
as time goes on.

But don't get, two things should never take place in any of your life.
Self-condemnation and discouragement. There is a no entry sign on those
two roads.

Please remember, no entry sign, follow the traffic rules, discouragement
and self-condemnation. No entry. One way only.

That means people can come out of it, but no going into it. Okay. We
have some questions, I think, they seem to be along the same line, so
I'll read them out.

It says, you talked about thoughts wandering while praying. It also
tends to wander while reading the Bible. What do we do? And then there's
the same one on the same line.

When I pray, I get some distracting thoughts. And I'm not sure that my
prayer is going to the Father, that he listens to me. I I get doubts
that it's going to someone else other than Jesus.

What should I do? And on the same lines, when I pray, I get some
wandering thoughts and I feel that I'm not praying to God and that my
prayers are going somewhere else, other than to Jesus. Maybe it's the
same question, I think. What should I do to be sure that Jesus is the
one I'm praying to and that he's listening? And on the same line, the
Bible says to lift up holy hands.

Does it speak only to the brothers? How do you remain humble always?
Yeah, see, wandering thoughts is part of the, because we have a flesh.
And, I don't know, maybe you I haven't come to that stage myself yet,
where I can concentrate, even for any short length of time without
sometimes I can, sometimes I can't. I've just got a flesh.

But wandering does not mean into sin. It's usually into things that
you're supposed to do today or tomorrow or, in fact, I found if you want
to remember something, just kneel down to pray and the devil will remind
you of all the things you're supposed to do. It's usually things like
that, that distract you and something else you're dealing with or, it's
not necessarily sinful things, but I say, okay, to me, I believe that
the Lord understands and He knows we are human, He knows we are in flesh
and I feel that we don't have to worry too much about it.

Like I said, you take the wrong turning and you pull yourself back. What
do you do if you took a wrong turning? Once you realize it's a wrong
turning, turn back and take the right road. You don't condemn yourself
for the rest of the day.

Oh, that day I took the wrong turning. Okay, you took a wrong turning.
How many times, even in traffic, we sometimes don't know the way or
accidentally miss the road.

Then we have to turn back and we waste some time. It's okay, it's not
such a serious thing. I believe that if we are sincere, then we can be
sure our praying and prayer is going to Jesus.

We don't have any feeling. I don't know how you have a feeling, it's
going to some other place. How do you know it's going to some other
place? We pray and we don't have any great consciousness that Jesus has
heard me or we live by faith and faith is one of those mysterious things
which we can't really explain.

But as you grow older and you walk with the Lord, if you are sincere,
that's the only thing I've said to myself. Lord, am I sincere? Am I
judging anybody else? Am I thinking that I'm better than? You know, I'll
tell you honestly, there are some times when I have shucked my eyes and
imagined the judgment seat of Christ and people being called up for
rewards and I have pictured everybody in CFC getting a reward before me.
I say, Lord, it's possible it will be like that.

The first will be last and the last will be first. And how do I know?
There may be lots of people sitting in CFC who are far more sincere than
I am. I may be more gifted, but rewards in heaven are not based on gift.

So, it's sincerity. So, it's good always to live in low thoughts about
ourselves. And if we are sincere, God will listen to us even if we don't
have any great feeling of it.

We pray and you know, God loves sincere people. And if you are sincere,
there's a song, one of the hymns in English, prayer is the soul's
sincere desire uttered or unexpressed. That means whether it's spoken or
not spoken.

It's the soul's sincere desire. If you have a sincere desire even if you
don't say it, that's a prayer to God. And very often I have found that
in my life.

I never prayed something but it was my desire. And God answered it. I
can say that was an answer to prayer.

But did you actually pray it? No, I didn't. That was my desire. Okay.

When we seek God for an answer, how can we know that the answer is from
God or just an idea from our brain? How can we make up? Okay. When I
pray for example for healing and I take medicine or go to surgery and
I'm healed, I thank God for the doctor and I thank God for the medicine.
But I say God healed me.

Why do we pray over our food? Because we believe that it's God who gives
us physical health. And this food, but I He uses food. He uses medicine.

But we thank God for a safe journey. It's a scooter that took us from
one place to another but God preserved us from accidents. So, in the
same way we recognize that even if we have used means, it's God who
answered that.

So, in every situation the question was Yeah, the other is an idea. If I
ask God for something and I get a thought, how do I know it's from God?
I believe that if it is from God, there will be a peace about it. Romans
8.6 says the mind of the Holy Spirit is life and peace.

And if you find an upsurge of life in you and a peaceful rest in your
spirit when you think about that particular course of action, that is
usually an indication it is from God. If there's a restlessness when you
think about marriage to somebody or taking that job or something, the
restlessness that means it's not usually from God. And as you pray about
it, the restlessness increases.

Then it's not from God. But if the peace increases and the circumstances
around also are suitable to that direction then you take it. There's no
voice from heaven.

That is how I've usually found God's will in my life. And whether an
idea is from God or when I read scripture something speaks to my heart,
if it helps me in my life then it's definitely from God. These are some
of the ways in which we know.

And of course we can also get confirmation by consulting with older,
mature believers concerning a decision. Okay, we'll stop with these
three. And it's one is I think that Zak has answered that what is your
view about modern day Christian rock music and along with that in our
colleges, classmates crack a lot of dirty jokes.

How should I respond to someone who cracks a joke of me at my face? It
is pretty awkward to keep silent. You see somebody makes fun of me I
think the right thing to do is laugh. I enjoy it.

It's at me. But if you're making a joke of somebody else some of the
dirty jokes. Okay, I'll come to that.

If making a joke at somebody else I don't think it's right to laugh
because that person should know at least that I don't laugh at something
which is humiliating him. You know, we are sometimes many Christians,
even in fun sometimes say things. We have to be very careful.

I know God has judged me on that. Sometimes I say something in fun about
somebody and afterwards I've gone home and I thought about it. I said,
Lord, how did that person take it? Did that person get hurt? I mean I
said it in fun but did that person get hurt? I said, Lord, please help
me.

I never want to hurt another person with a joke. When it comes to dirty
jokes I wouldn't act like a holy person or you fellows are sinners but I
would try to make it clear, well I'm really not. Let them think I'm a
dumb sort of person who can't understand the joke.

And you know that I don't really laugh at something dirty which makes
fun of God or if it makes fun of God, you know I say, excuse me brother
or my friend, I don't think it's wise to make fun of God or something
dirty. I say, well, I'm not really. He must know that I'm not interested
in it.

Let him think whatever he thinks. It says in church, how could I, I
think it means how could I relate or ministering with boys and girls is
1 Timothy 5 2 possible today? That is treat the younger women like
sisters? Is that what you are talking about? Treat the younger and the
older women like mothers? 1 Timothy 5 and verse 2, the older women as
mothers, the younger women as sisters in all purity? Yeah, that I mean
scripture is valid for all times. And so I believe that's possible today
and I believe we should treat sisters in purity but because of the
prevailing atmosphere, you know in Paul's time it was much easier.

Culture itself prevented people from and in the villages in India it's
somewhat like similar to what it was in those days. But because of the
freedom there is nowadays between boys and girls, you have to be very
careful in relationship with sisters, young sisters particularly very
very careful and you must keep a certain restraint that you know that
you say always Lord keep me in purity and I would say that one way in
which you can know there has been impurity in your relationship even in
a meeting with other young brothers or young sisters is what you dream
about at night. You know if you are really faithful in walking with God
God will warn you by some dreams you get at night which indicate that
within the last day or which in the last week you were a little impure.

You don't have to feel condemned over that dream. But that dream is a
little warning from God. Be careful in that area.

Because dreams are your subconscious got a little message from your
behavior. You may justify yourself by saying I didn't mean anything and
you may sincerely believe that and our culture is ok. But your
subconscious got a little message.

I know what you wanted and there is a little impurity there. And the
subconscious says ok I will feed it back to you in your dreams. And you
get it in your dream and you know that that was not totally pure.

Take that warning. Take that warning and say God forgive me, forgive me.
You know God has protected me from so many dangers by dreams.

I will tell you honestly. So many dangers in relation to the opposite
sex by dreams. I remember God gave me some, I don't remember was it
15-20 years ago.

He showed me in my dream three not all in one day at different times,
three sisters in our churches whom the Lord said be careful of them.
They were born again sisters. And I said Lord I will do that.

And as soon as I saw that I said yes I have to be careful of these. So
if you are serious you will find that God warns you in a dream not
necessarily of a particular thing but where there has been slight
impurity if you are really serious about purity God will warn you. And
then you take that warning and that holds you back from much more
serious sin.

To me it's like I used to get sometimes little tosses from my scooter
where I never hurt anybody and I never broke a bone or anything but the
little toss would warn me be careful slow down a bit. So it's like that
the Lord says in human relationships also between boys and girls the
Lord is saying slow down slow down. You are getting too close for
comfort.

You know these mottos written at the back of auto rickshaws. Keep your
distance. Very good word for brother sister relationships.

Keep your distance. Keep your distance. This relates to what we heard in
the last session.

Last we asked Razack and Sistani what would be the last words they would
speak to young people and Razack spoke about fixing our eyes on Jesus.
Together with this somebody has asked how do we fix our eyes on Jesus in
a practical way. And last question that we can end this youth conference
which I'm going to ask what brother Razack and Stani to what would you
say to young people of our churches committed Christian young people who
face a future particularly in the life that we are in the end times and
we don't know what the future holds what word would you like to give to
young people of advice or encouragement or exhortation and we want to
print this what we heard in the last you know people put famous last
words I think it was very worthwhile thinking about what we heard from
brother Razack and Stani and Stani shared about being honest submitting
regarding sisters now you know what would be a word that you would give
to this generation that's growing up as they face a future which we
don't know like we sing we don't know what the future holds okay
concerning the first practical ways of looking and fixing our eyes on
Jesus you know to think that Jesus was made in everything like you and
was tempted in everything like you so in practical terms whenever you
are tempted with anything whatever your circumstances he didn't have
your circumstances he never rode a scooter he never played football he
played other games I'm sure but he never faced the temptations you face
but he never faced the circumstances you face but he did face the
temptations you face temptation to seek your own pleasure to enjoy
yourself instead of pleasing God etc and to think that Lord what did you
do in a similar circumstance in Nazareth when you were tempted like I'm
being tempted right now or not you know there's a very famous saying
what would Jesus do I don't usually ask that question but I would ask
this can I do this in fellowship with Jesus which is a better question
can I do this in fellowship with Jesus or can I not do it I have to sort
of keep Jesus away from this particular thing I'm going to do or where
I'm going now can I take Jesus along with me watching this movie can I
take Jesus along to watch it or this habit can I do it say Lord let's
you and I do this thing together and then you suddenly get a light that
Jesus I can't do that along with Jesus I have to sort of do it on my own
then I've taken off the yoke from my neck and say Lord I'm going off on
my own now for a little while I'll come back after half an hour then you
know you're wrong whatever people may say and whatever other young
people may say oh it's alright we're living in 21st century but you know
you got to give up Jesus at that short time so you got to think now I
mean is that something that you can do in fellowship with Jesus very
good question to ask yourself this is a practical way of fixing our eyes
on Jesus and the other thing in relation to today's what I would say to
young people is do you know the great need in our churches which many of
us have been praying for older people is a second generation of leaders
we need second level of leadership third level of leadership and where
is that got to come from not from we don't have bible schools churning
out pastors who come and take over churches we don't have that it has to
come from within the church where have all the leaders in all our
churches come from from within the churches so in another few years
where are the leaders going to come from from some of you sitting here
where are all the wives of the leaders going to come from some of you
sisters sitting here don't you think you should take your calling
seriously I mean God may want you to be an elder in a church one day God
may want you to be an elder sister in a church one day well you got to
prepare yourself now it takes a long time study God's word prepare
yourself and once you get married I'll tell you the number of people I
have met who tell me what I already knew that once you get married you
don't get much time to study the word it's true almost all the bible
knowledge I have today factual knowledge not talking about revelation
revelation you get all through life but factual knowledge of the bible
almost all the bible knowledge I have today is what I knew before I got
married almost all of it 90% of it so if you don't study the bible in
your single days I tell you you have missed some of the most important
periods of your whole life now I want to say to all of you who are
single you don't know what opportunities you are missing by not devoting
yourself to the study of God's word please please please devote yourself
to it you know I have met some people in other churches who are so
devoted to the study of the word and I said boy why can't we have some
people in CFC like this you know there's a lot of ignorance of scripture
in our midst because many of us are not seriously studying the word and
I want to encourage you study the word be prepared for the coming days
God wants to raise you up to be leaders and there may submit to the
authorities in your church I mean if they are going astray don't follow
them but if you find really godly men whose example and whose ministry
blesses you follow such examples and don't be critical of every little
thing you know I have seen people in our church who come to this church
and they are critical and critical and critical they don't last very
long it's not the spirit of Christ I mean if you can do something better
than what those elders are doing it's like to me it's like these people
in the stadium criticizing the 22 footballers on the field ah he should
have kicked it there he should have kicked it there it's all very easy
to say that when you are sitting in the stadium you get out on the field
you wouldn't know where to kick it at all you may kick it in your own
goal so it's very easy to sit in the stadium and say he should have
kicked it there and he should have kicked it there and to sit in the
meeting and say that chap is boring or you try getting up and speaking I
tell you even to speak 10 minutes without boring people is difficult so
don't just criticize pray for people and judge yourself and don't just
be critical elders are trying to do a good job they may not do a perfect
job but support them and particularly if a man is a God fearing man to
whom God has borne witness for many many years God has borne witness to
some brother or sister I'll tell you in your own interest respect such
people it will go well with you so that's my advice to you yeah and take
responsibility in your local churches I grew up by taking responsibility
you know that I would try and share God's word with a few people not
part of the church meeting I'd go to some home and say can I share
something with you or maybe in your place of work your sisters you meet
somebody and try to be friendly with that person and you know bless them
in some way give them a gift and then give them the gospel Jesus always
was the friend of sinners before he asked the woman in Samaria for a
water can you give me a glass of water so we need wisdom then opened up
her heart to the gospel so say Lord I'm not capable like other people
but I'm available can you say that to God can all of you say Lord I'm
available please prepare me for what you have for me in the future many
times when I come to the meeting and I sit there this verse which is
written there I look at that and that's like the message for me and if
we judge ourselves we will not be judged and when I sit here and I hear
the word of God I say Lord I want to judge myself when I sit here I
don't want to look at this word is for so and so young person or so and
so older person but that word is for me and I think that has been like a
secret for me whatever word I hear whatever situation comes across my
path I take it to judge myself and I just want to say really funny thing
which happened at home you know my husband has got a machine to give him
a little exercise and I used to think I don't need any exercise because
I'm doing all the work if he does like you know like me he starts like
watering the plants and things like that but he is allergic to plants
and dust but I was a little critical in my spirit thinking like I don't
need the exercise and he used to say you can also exercise but I thought
I don't need the exercise and that boastfulness was coming in my heart I
didn't realize it and I was very busy cleaning up my house for this
conference and for my guests and my children and all and I climbed up on
the stool and had such a bad fall and the Lord taught me see you have
the spirit of boastfulness and judging others and you need to humble
yourself and you are proud that you are working so hard and every
situation I want to take like that even that fall or success or whatever
take it in a way where I judge myself and say Lord I need to take it and
I want to hear what you want to speak to me in this situation yeah thank
you very very much so good that we can have examples who are honest and
sincere and we see reality we really thank God let's express our thanks
and appreciation by giving them a good hand

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Video: https://sermonindex2.b-cdn.net/IF_kCLiMTD8.mp4
Source: https://sermonindex.net/speakers/zac-poonen/personal-questions-honest-answers-2003/
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