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Rahman
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Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374


 THE REVELATION: An Online Discussion ... Chap. 1-3 ...

Rev. 1:3 - Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.


The Prayer:

Holy Spirit we pray your guidance and governance over this thread ... Teach us please as much as You will from this book of The Revelation ... And may we recieve the special blessing attached to it's reading and keep these things that are written in the manner meant of it's inscription ... In Jesus most precious name we pray ... Amen



Some websites you may find helpful ...

The Sequence of Endtime Events ...
http://home.earthlink.net/~duncan1958/e_tsoee.html

Beast of Revelation and Daniel ...
http://becomingone.org/beasttable.htm

H.A. Ironside's Revelation Chart
http://www.e-grace.net/ironside.html

THE REVELATION CHART ...
http://www.wearejustchristians.com...

 2005/3/22 19:22Profile
Rahman
Member



Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374


 Re: Chap. 1 ...




This thread was inspired by brother Ron's thread ...


What is the point of prophecy? ...
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=4582&forum=36&start=10&viewmode=flat&order=0

Over there we got into a discussion of The Revelation centering around what in it is "symbolic" and what's "literal" with my stating that i didn't seem to have much trouble seperating the two in my own reading, then brother Ron's asked me the tough question of how did i judge which is literal and which is representative? ...

i thought that there would be no way of discussing this in forum but our Lord woke me up this morning with an idea ... [color=FF3300]i'm taking the Revelation one chapter at a time and posting in "red" what i see as "symbolic"[/color], what i see as literal i will leave in black along with the rest of the text ...


My posts of how i view The Revelation are only here as a starting point of discussion to hopefully Holy Spirit's illumination of this fascinating book ... So as i promised brother Mike ...

"THIS IS A DISCUSSION ... A SHARING OF VIEWS ... NOT ANYONE'S PERSONAL CRUSADE TO CONVINCE ...

With that said, let's begin ...


WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS ON? ...



Rev.1:

[1] The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

[2] Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

[3] Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

[4] John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from[color=FF0000] the seven Spirits which are before his throne;[/color][5] And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

[6] And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

[7] Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

[8] I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

[9] I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

[10] I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

[11] Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

[12] And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw [color=FF0000]seven golden candlesticks[/color];

[13] And in the midst of [color=FF0000]the seven candlesticks[/color] one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

[14] His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

[15] And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

[16] And he had in his right hand [color=FF0000]seven stars[/color]: and [color=FF0000]out of his mouth went a sharp two edged sword[/color]: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

[17] And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

[18] I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

[19] Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

[20] [color=009900]The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.[/color]



My thoughts:

This is one of those good chapters where God uses symbols, then tells us just what those symbols mean in verse 20 ...

The most fascinating thing i find in Chapter 1:1 is this statement: The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God (The Father) gave unto Him, to shew unto his servants ... i've heard some refer to The Revelation and Christ's final love letter to His Bride to comfort us during His long physical absence ... but i find it interesting that if that is the case it's our Father that dictated it? ... i love the interworkings of the Godhead ...

The seven Spirits which are before his throne:
This is one that some researchers have wondered if its in reference to the seven archangels, but further venturing into Revelation chapters 4-6 seems to indicate that this is in reference to God the Holy Spirit ... Even tho we know that Holy Spirit is one in Himself the questions that come to mind are: Is this a symbolism of His being the divied out representative in heaven of all seven pastors/churches before the throne of God, much in the same way that each and every saint is indwealt by the self same Spirit of God? ... Or could it represent seven seperate attribute of the one Holy Spirit that we may not be privy to? ... rev. 3/23/05


Do all agree that the symbolisms in this first chapter are as verse 20 say they are?


 2005/3/22 19:34Profile
Rahman
Member



Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374


 Re: Chap. 2 ...



[1] Unto the [color=FF0000]angel[/color] of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth [color=FF0000]the seven stars[/color] in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of [color=FF0000]the seven golden candlesticks[/color];

[2] I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

[3] And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.

[4] Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

[5] Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy
[color=FF0000]candlestick[/color] out of his place, except thou repent.

[6] But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

[7] He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

[8] And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

[9] I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

[10] Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

[11] He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

[12] And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the [color=FF0000]sharp sword with two edges;[/color][13] I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

[14] But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.

[15] So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.

[16] Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with[color=FF0000] the sword of my mouth[/color].

[17] He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

[18] And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;

[19] I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.

[20] Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

[21] And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

[22] Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

[23] And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

[24] But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.

[25] But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

[26] And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

[27] And he shall rule them with [color=FF3300]a rod of iron[/color]; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

[28] And I will give him [color=FF0000]the morning star[/color].

[29] He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.




My thoughts:

- sharp sword with two edges , the sword of my mouth = i see this as a symbolism for the effect of His Word much the same as the scripture which states ... Heb.4:12 - For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart ...

It's funny that while the sharp sword jumps off the page to me as symbolism, Christ's physical apperance, and His being in garb settles in my spirit as perfectly literal ... i have no problem literally seeing myself in a glorified body, clothed in a white robe with a crown on my head ...

- a rod of iron = i see as a symbolism of strict rule ...

- the morning star = i don't have a clear reference to what Jesus means by this ... i know that He is refered to as "the morning star" ... Could it be a reference to Him giving us Himself? ... i haven't a clue on this one ...

 2005/3/22 19:49Profile
Rahman
Member



Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374


 Re: Chap. 3 ...



[1] And unto the [color=FF0000]angel[/color] of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the [color=FF0000]seven Spirits of God[/color], and [color=FF3300]the seven stars[/color]; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

[2] Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.

[3] Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

[4] Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

[5] He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

[6] He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

[7] And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

[8] I know thy works: behold, I have [color=FF0000]set before thee an open door[/color], and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

[9] Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

[10] Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

[11] Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

[12] Him that overcometh will I [color=FF0000]make a pillar in the temple of my God[/color], and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

[13] He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

[14] And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

[15] I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

[16] So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

[17] Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

[18] [color=FF0000]I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.[/color]
[19] As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

[20] Behold, [color=FF0000]I stand at the door, and knock[/color]: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, [color=FF0000]I will come in to him, and will sup with him[/color], and he with me.

[21] To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

[22] He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.





My thoughts:


set before thee an open door =
This is part of a word that i took to my pastor in regards our congregation and so i see the church of Philadelphia (or this type church) as having a blessing before it that it can't even see, and so has no outward signs of appreciation for ... An "open door by God" is a special supernatural priviledge, favor to be more precise, to that church being one evangelizing dynamo, and if they'd just turn their full attention to His worship and praise, presenting themselves as living sacrifices, there is nothing to great for God that they couldn't accomplish ...That's exactly the full potential of my assembly ... But this is the type church that when it begins to slip on even holding fast to what it's already gained, can begin to slip into pride and rest on their laurels, and so finding themselves drifting toward the sins of Laodicea ...


make a pillar in the temple of my God = i don't see this as literal but more symbolic of the meaning when one is a pillar of their community ...

Verse 18 = i think these symbolisms are pretty self explanatory ...


I stand at the door, and knock = i think we all know what this is symbolic of ...


I will come in to him, and will sup with him = This to me is symbolic of a friendly, jotous, communicative intimacy ...

 2005/3/22 19:58Profile
Jimm
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Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 498
Harare, ZIMBABWE

 Re:

I'm with you so far :-)


_________________
James Gabriel Gondai Dziya

 2005/3/23 15:57Profile
Rahman
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Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374


 Re:


Praise the Lord for you brother James ... It's always good to have company on a long journey ... :-D

Man, after all this time i'm finally getting the hang of this! ... :-P

 2005/3/23 20:35Profile
Rahman
Member



Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374


 Re: THE REVELATION: An Online Discussion ... Chap. 1-3 ...



This is a good thing that our Lord has picked me up again towards His Revelation, for it's been a while since i've revisited ...

i'm listening to a tedious series thru the book, and this is something that stuck out in my listening ...

The brother states that The Revelation came at a time of darkness and despair amongst the early Christian Church ... All of the original Disciples of Christ, except for John (whom i believe was the recipient altho others question this) were martyred, and John himself was in prison on Patmos ... Apparently it was a time of dire persecution of the saints, and the Revelation came to them as a soothing balm to bolster their flagging faith and was recieved as such by many ... The brother also stated that those early saints being closer to many ancient symbolisms used in the book readily understood things that require research by we modern day saints over this long expanse of time ... But also that we modern day saints are now capable of recognizing some things some 1900 years later that the early saints couldn't even begin to fathom ... But the major difference between them and us ... they read the book ... we don't ...

This has made me wonder why the modern church doesn't percieve the Revelation as it is meant? ...

- Why are we so afraid, if not totally turned off, of the book? ...

- Could it be that this book can only be appreciated for it's victorious conclusion by saints under fiery persecution? ...

- Have we become to self assured as the modern church as to completely dismiss it's admonition of reading and it's insription of blessing? ... i know for a fact that many pre-tribber's dismiss their reading of The Revelation for just such a reason as they feel they wont be here for the Tribs so why bother with such a pre judged enigma ... But i see no where in The Revelation a clause that excuses us from it's reading based on where we place our faith in the occurence of the rapture ...

If The Revelation was such a comfort by emphasizing such a mightiness of victory in God to a Church back then who must have been feeling a little lonely, depressed and unsure of it's present, let alone it's future, wouldn't it stand to reason that it's deep study would be a tonic for todays "depressed" church? ... Lots of saints in America on anti-depressants ... Why?

Hmmmm the things i wonder ...

The brother also brings out that the book was written to bolster an already sagging, and in some cases just down right fallen churches back then in Asia MInor, but is to also serve every church since to present as our measuring rods of judging if we're living up to Christ's standards or falling way short (Rev. chap. 2 & 3) ... It's truly amazing how God's use of the prophetic covers then and now His divine purpose ... What an awesome God we serve!

 2005/3/23 20:44Profile
Jimm
Member



Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 498
Harare, ZIMBABWE

 Re:

Quote:
Have we become to self assured as the modern church as to completely dismiss it's admonition of reading and it's insription of blessing?



Self-assurance is preached and practiced indirectly. How subtle are the powers of darkness. Our Lord never spoke of Himself even when He was tempted by the devil.

James


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James Gabriel Gondai Dziya

 2005/3/24 8:46Profile
Jimm
Member



Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 498
Harare, ZIMBABWE

 Re:

Quote:
The seven Spirits which are before his throne:
This is one that some researchers have wondered if its in reference to the seven archangels, but further venturing into Revelation chapters 4-6 seems to indicate that this is in reference to God the Holy Spirit ... Even tho we know that Holy Spirit is one in Himself the questions that come to mind are: Is this a symbolism of His being the divied out representative in heaven of all seven pastors/churches before the throne of God, much in the same way that each and every saint is indwealt by the self same Spirit of God? ... Or could it represent seven seperate attribute of the one Holy Spirit that we may not be privy to? …



This is a difficult one bro. There is a passage which brought about similar curiosity in me.

1 Kings 22:19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left. 20 And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner. 21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him. 22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so. 23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

This to me is as profound as the fact of the seven angles who are in the hand of our Lord; for who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?


_________________
James Gabriel Gondai Dziya

 2005/3/27 21:51Profile
grasshopper
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Joined: 2004/8/14
Posts: 14
Toronto, Canada

 Re:

This is a great discussion/study and it is a shame it is not studied more. I myself see this book, The Revelation, as a book of hope, not destruction. Anne Graham Lotz wrote a book a few years ago based on the Revelation, called A Vision of His Glory. Very good book and it has placed in my heart a desire to be open to new things of God until I am a very old man(still lots of time).
The question was raised re: the seven spirits. Could this be a reference to the seven-fold ministry of the Holy Spirit? Take a look at Isaiah 11:2 and let me know what you think.
In Christ Alone,
Dave


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Dave

 2005/3/27 23:29Profile





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