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Joined: 2004/5/13
Posts: 36


Hi my name is joshua, i have been muched greived over the prosperity doctrine, in our day, which seems to have flowed out of the word of faith movement but has been around since the beginning in one form or another im sure. It seems in Paul's day there was a doctrine creeping into the church that exactly resembles the one of today. In the following verses i believe we see this.

1Ti 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, [even] the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;

(what is the wholesome words of the Lord Jesus Christ? and the teaching that is according to Godliness? In context Paul is says that Godliness with contentment is great gain, NOT Godliness is a means of gain. ie being is a christian is an oppurtunity or means to be rich. Part of true godliness is true contentment. What are some of the wholesome words of the Lord, and his teaching on this.
Matthew 6:19-34" Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
21For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
22The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great [is] that darkness!
24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?
26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?
27Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?
28And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:
29And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, [shall he] not much more [clothe] you, O ye of little faith?
31Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
32(For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
33But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day [is] the evil thereof."

We all believers here have an explicit command by our Lord to not invest our finances on storing up things here on earth and an explicit command to store up them in heaven. This was not a option or a suggestion. What did moths primarily destroy in those days. Moths ate clothes, those more so that were not worn much hence "where moth destroy" because clothes being "stored up". Except we dont have that prb in the 20th century because of sinithetic clothing. Gold, silver, etc "were rust destroy" The principal is that everything is going to be destroyed, the things that are are going to fade away, we cannot take them with us. So the Lord is telling us not to store up material things firstly because of there incorruptibility. He commands us to invest our finances into His Kingdom not here on earth, to invest in heaven, not here and now to satisfy ourselves when they will only fade away. He illustrates this to His disciples for us in telling them to sell all they have.
Luk 12:33 "Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth.
34For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also."

Excuse" i have all these things but i dont love them, id sell them in a second if God told me to."

This is like the guy with porno prob saying with his walls covered magazines pilled everywhere" i dont really love these things id get rid of them if i had to im still pure inside"

You reveal were your heart is by were your treasure is. If you have it it show that is where your heart is at, otherwise you wouldnt have it if you didnt want it. IF YOU HAVE IT IT HAS YOU.

Then to te rich man he commands the same to be His disciple:
Luk 18:22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

The demands of following Christ he said clearly were to forsake all, your life, all you have,take up your cross, and follow him, otherwise you could not be His disciple.(Mat 16:24,Mar 8:34,Mar 10:21,Luk 9:23)

Mar 8:35 "For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it."

These are i think among the many of the wholesome words of our Lord and the teaching according to Godliness; teaching godliness with contentment is great gain.

So we go back to verse 3, 1Ti 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, [even] the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;

(if anyman teach different than what jesus taught, and not agree with his words)

1Ti 6:4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,

1Ti 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

(Here we see that Paul is teaching true Christianity, and rebuke heresy that is taught much today especially in america, that gain is godliness, having much, storing up on earth, having riches, luxeries, outwardly, is Godliness. NO, godliness with contentment is great gain! From people that teach this get away from them!)

1Ti 6:6But godliness with contentment is great gain. (As Christ teaches, in the eternal investment, and ie. now learning obedience, by self denial)

1Ti 6:7For we brought nothing into [this] world, [and it is] certain we can carry nothing out.

1Ti 6:8And having food and raiment let us be therewith content. ( Here it doesnt get any blunter and plainer, we are to be content with the basic needs, food, and clothing. that it. This is our standard agaisnt everything we do with our resources we need to ask ourselves is this a need or a want. Obviously, some people need a vehicle to get to work, but do you need a mercedes? no, with leather seats, no every extra luxuries package no. Thats what your flesh would want. Used or new affortable, best out of it for your money, ie toyota corolla. whatever your job may be that kind of vehicle you need, but the bare nessary the best for your money, most importantly always being led by the H.S with much prayer. We all should consider our jobs too, and if our work is were God wants us, and is it a glorifying to him profession? if not we should get out. Our lives are to be a living sacrifice. Not about us, our dreams, goals, education, future, wants, pleasures, hobbies, etc like the world tells us, but our lives are now all about our King, and putting Him first, and His kingdom first in advansing and furthering that in our lives, in every possible way we can, knowing He is coming soon, knowing that we are going to have to give an account, doing everything 4 the glory of God.

To further emphazize my points and some very good resources on this subjects that I highly reccomend is
1. David Kirkwood sermon love of money(a former pastor and graduate of Word Of Faith) listen at under music and sermon downloads on the right column main page.
and David has a website too if your interesed.

2. 2 books by K.P. Yohannan, president of Gospel For Asia first is called Revolution In World Missions(His testimony as a native missionary in India, now a servant to the body of Christ raising up, funding sending out native missionaries, and teaching the body of Christ esp. in the US of the great need of the 10/40 window 4 the gospel, and our responsibilities as Christian in this. And a wake up call to the Church to go back to NT Christianity, This book is much like reading the book of Acts, as far as testimonies are concearned), second The Road To Reality Like the first but focusses more on Coming home to jesus from the unreal world, the lies of the present day gospel, our culture and desception, and the call to be a real follower of Christ in these times. Both these books i deff recomend to any serious Christian.

Im grived, right now in my life, and Im truly seeking to live my life, for the King, and to follow Him, without any compramise, Im facing a very hard place right now in this area. Please pray for me. Im sharing these things out of love for my brothers here and care for you, this is my convictions, of what our Lord is calling me and all to and always has every believer. K.P. said the true test of our affections is not how much we give but how we live our lives. I do not want an inch of compramise in my life, even if it means losing mother father brother and sister for his sake. I pray that all you would see the truth and sell out for Christ, and be a living sacrifice; to further our Kings kingdom, and follow our Great Commision; to preach the goodnews, and make disciples. Always seeking His Glory, i love brothers and sisters in the Lord. I feel we must not forget to love those who have fallen, or are blind, in this area, we must pray for them, and speak to them, in love and humility. Knowing that no covetours or greedy person shall enter the kingdom of heaven.

Here are some more scriptures on this subject. If anyone desires further communcation with me u can email me at [email protected]

love in Messiah Yeshua Jesus Christ our Lord, joshua

Job 31:24 If I have made gold my hope, or have said to the fine gold, [Thou art] my confidence;

Psa 39:6 Surely every man walketh in a vain shew: surely they are disquieted in vain: he heapeth up [riches], and knoweth not who shall gather them.

Psa 62:10 Trust not in oppression, and become not vain in robbery: if riches increase, set not your heart [upon them].

Pro 11:4 Riches profit not in the day of wrath: but righteousness delivereth from death.

Pro 16:16 How much better [is it] to get wisdom than gold! and to get understanding rather to be chosen than silver!

Pro 23:5 Wilt thou set thine eyes upon that which is not? for [riches] certainly make themselves wings; they fly away as an eagle toward heaven.

Ecc 2:26 For [God] giveth to a man that [is] good in his sight wisdom, and knowledge, and joy: but to the sinner he giveth travail, to gather and to heap up, that he may give to [him that is] good before God. This also [is] vanity and vexation of spirit.

Ecc 5:10 He that loveth silver shall not be satisfied with silver; nor he that loveth abundance with increase: this [is] also vanity.

Ecc 5:11 When goods increase, they are increased that eat them: and what good [is there] to the owners thereof, saving the beholding [of them] with their eyes?

Ecc 5:12 The sleep of a labouring man [is] sweet, whether he eat little or much: but the abundance of the rich will not suffer him to sleep.

Ecc 5:13 There is a sore evil [which] I have seen under the sun, [namely], riches kept for the owners thereof to their hurt.

Ecc 5:14 But those riches perish by evil travail: and he begetteth a son, and [there is] nothing in his hand.

Zep 1:18 Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD'S wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.

Luk 12:21 So [is] he that layeth up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.

Luk 18:24 And when Jesus saw that he was very sorrowful, he said, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!

1Ti 6:8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.

1Ti 6:9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and [into] many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.

1Ti 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

1Ti 6:17 Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy;

Hbr 13:5 [Let your] conversation [be] without covetousness; [and be] content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

Jam 5:1 Go to now, [ye] rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon [you].

Jam 5:2 Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are motheaten.

Jam 5:3 Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.

1Jo 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things [that are] in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

1Jo 2:16 For all that [is] in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

 2006/3/18 0:16Profile


Very touched by your post Joshua.

You mention 2 books by K.P. Yohannan, president of Gospel For Asia.

God Bless you for this. And all else that came from your heart.

I one time posted a link to World Missionary Press, who prints free booklets for the "Gospel for Asia" ministry and others in 319 languages, and work mostly by Volunteers who are aged to make and package these booklets .... and was rebuked for posting their info on a thread about Revival through a PM.

It felt as though my heart had been cut out when I read that rebuke.

How do we seperate saving the world through booklets made by mostly volunteers and distributed by the millions for free from "Revival" ?

What is happening to our vision ?

 2006/3/18 7:21

Joined: 2006/2/4
Posts: 352
Fort Frances, Ontario


The Lord has been showing me a lot through his word about how we should feel about money. A lot of the same scriptures that you chose. I have always wondered how the people involved in these prosperity doctrines read their bibles. The message seems pretty clear to me how we are to use our money.

On a side note, Annie that grieves me a great deal that someone rebuked you over those booklets.

Indeed, What is happening to our vision?


Murray Beninger

 2006/3/18 7:35Profile

Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777

 Re: literature?

How do we seperate saving the world through booklets made by mostly volunteers and distributed by the millions for free from "Revival" ?

Annie, don't yoiu think that man has a tendency to make boxes with thier theological views and expectations. And then they reject anything that doesn't fit in.
ex: If revival is a move of GOD, how can "man's means" like literature-distribution fit into that box.
Also, literature has a very different image here than in other less affluent countries. We get too much of it. People don't read gospel imformation here as much as there. Could that be right?

If we only knew how much believers in suffering countries crave for even a wrinkly page of scritpure.



 2006/3/18 8:12Profile

 Re: Look into these faces.

 2006/3/18 8:53

Joined: 2003/10/30
Posts: 1554


[b][url=]The Redeemer Is Returning To Zion[/url] ![/b]

 2006/3/18 10:19Profile

Joined: 2005/8/4
Posts: 33


Thank you for posting that! It is so true and so needed to be heard. It is how my husband and I live our lives and it is so incredibly freeing, it is unbelievable. To no longer run after the "so called" American dream, and to know that I am building up treasure in heaven that will NEVER be corrupted!
I have grown to hate all of this prosperity garbage and think it is a complete and utter slap in the face to our Precious Lord Jesus. There is nothing else that is such a direct competitor for the hearts of men than money or mammon.

When you start seeing all of this waste in the terms of lives, it gets overwhelming! Millions of dollars spent on a building when 30,000 children die of starvation everyday! When billions are waiting to hear the Blessed Gospel that saves!! And not even just the waste of huge buildings themselves, but the waste is EVERYWHERE!!

You mentioned Gospel For Asia- March is their graduation month from their many Bible schools and there are alot of missionaries waiting to be sponsered. For everyone who reads this, you should sponser a missionary from GFA- it's only $30 a month- I mean just about everyone has that in their wallet right now and if it was gone you wouldn't even miss it. So many are waiting to hear about Jesus....

Check out this article about some common questions regarding this subject and get ready to be challenged.

You can also hear a music compilation of David Kirkwoods sermon, The Love of money here

It is music compilation #5
One more awesome compilation on this subject is
compilation #2 called One thing you lack- Art Katz is the speaker.

Thank you again brother Joshua for the encouraging word! It's time for all Christians to make God their security and trust in His promises the He already knows what we NEED and He promised to provide for what we NEEDED-not for all the material possesions we wanted!
Let's go after God security not financial security!


Mary Beth Ersig

 2006/3/18 13:00Profile

Joined: 2006/1/26
Posts: 189
mountains of Pa.


Give out of love and joy, and not want anything in turn.......I rember being very poor living in a one room apartment....... while praying on my bed.......A red ruby sparkle caught my eye from the corner of the carpet and wall base,... many of people have lived in this room before me....,so i go to take a look at what seems to be a lost earing from some one,....i go to pick it out ,and the carpet pull away and God shows me the money MY mouth drooped ....I thank Him I found $80 dollars.was laying under that carpet ,only God knows how long .....,and i needed it very bad. I was going to bed hungry that night......So I took some of the money,ran to the top floor where a lady lives who goes to church,I told her to put this in the offering plate with no name to it...HE is truly wonderful!

 2006/3/18 13:05Profile

Joined: 2004/5/13
Posts: 36


Mary and others, thank you very much for your encouragement. Sometimes I wonder if im the only one out there at thinks this way. But then I remember the scripture that paul said in

Rom 11:2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel?
Rom 11:3 "Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life."
Rom 11:4 But what is God's reply to him? "I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal."
Rom 11:5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.

These are encouraging words, as well your guys words also. Yes Mary the whole building issue for the most part, esp in america is a huge ego trip, man made kingdom, mans methods, formalistic, waste of money and a distraction. Because for the most part most buildings are sitting empty more than used, and if used, most buildings are much to big 4 the actual amount of people present. They are just empty waste of space that we pay for and maintain,4 what? So we can feel good, that we have a nice big "church" the church is never a building and never will be confined to one.

It has turned into an idol for much i believe in the west, A SUBSTITUTE FOR GOD AND TRUE RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM. Thinking christianity is going to a building 1 day a week listening to a man speak. Still the bondage of the doctrine from RMC seeking a man as a mediator man made religion in exchange for a true relationship with God.

The time and finances used in running a building are majoridly wasted this way. I believe the root is a mindset trickled down from the catholic church, and prb much deeper than that. It says that unless you have a building you do not have a church, and unless there is a clergy over it it isnt a church. I beleive this is the sick and twisted doctrine of the Nicolations that Jesus says He hates in the book of Revelation. And that ran through into the Roman Catholic Church and there horrid works of darkness that came from 1 man being in control, and lording over the people. And unfourtunatly much dont know also carried on through the reformation churches and right down into today. This system breeds; seperation between clergy and laity(unscriptual) which breeds Pride, control, formalism, compramising word of God,and the list goes on with those in authority, and those under auothority breeds laziness, undiscipled baby christians who fall into wanting there luke warm, uscriptual christianity loving there methods and rituals, and there ears to be tickled.

In the new testament most meetings of believers all the way through into the epistles were in houses not man made buildings. Can God use buildings, yes, are they wrong in them selves no,
Psa 127:1 Unless the LORD builds the house, those who build it labor in vain. Unless the LORD watches over the city, the watchman stays awake in vain.

Yet It never was the NT blue print of gathering together.
If you logically think of of the advantages of gathering at home; relationships will flurish, disciplship will take place, true intamicy and fellowship much lacking in the common 1 hour church gathering in a building on sunday, not to mention the great time and money saved on not running the whole building, also not having a tax no. and having a building make home churches almost persecution proof. Discipleship should be going on that when the group number gets past 12 or so then a new home group can start, and so on and so on. Chuck Misler from Koinonia House has a really good teaching on this subject called the once and future church, all about going back to NT christianity, studying history, and cleaning up some things that weve been handed down, and seing the vision of the church that lies ahead. It costs money, but if you feel lead its a blessing.

I believe that God desires to dwell in the hearts of men, not in a building. The whole building mentality is this culture, quick fix, 1 hour in out, back to our life, christianity becomes a conveince hobbie rather then a living relationship with the creator of the universe. It becomes and the way the system of it is set up breeds entertainment rather then reality. Keeps Christians in a box, and God, rather then, open and free to go into all the world. Relationship with GOd, the great commission of every believer to preach the good news- discipleship , true fellowship, and worship all these things get exchanged for a endless system of methods,programs, self entertainment all to designed around making you feel good, logic goes "you can be a christian and still have fun!" ie; potluck dinner movie night, entertainment park trips, golfing. Christianity seems to have become a hobby, a feel good christianity, humanistic. Christianity of today is so in the world you cannot tell the diff between the world and it. With homosexual pastors, tatoos, rampant lust, men and women clothing so sensual, fornication, divorce, witchcraft; ciggarets pharmakia, exceptance of harry potter, lord of the rings, santa clause, toothfairy, much music of world esp. Yoga, new age, homo pathic medicines, Astrology, Chinese Astrology-furtune cookies,rock music acceptance of movies that exalt evil, and call evil good and good evil,

House hold idol- Tv-cable-entertainment

paganism mixed with God (CHRISTMAS; (tree- LISTEN TO JEREMIAH 10:1 " Hear the word that the LORD speaks to you, O house of Israel.
Jer 10:2 Thus says the LORD: "Learn not the way of the nations, nor be dismayed at the signs of the heavens because the nations are dismayed at them,
Jer 10:3 for the customs of the peoples are vanity. A tree from the forest is cut down and worked with an axe by the hands of a craftsman.
Jer 10:4 They decorate it with silver and gold; they fasten it with hammer and nails so that it cannot move."
It was a pagan ritual then in Israels time, and Israel was partaking in it and God way rebuke them to come out or else they will be judged. And we are doing it now in christianity today mixing pagan rituals with Jesus, its sick. If God hated it then He hates it now, and does now desire to be worshiped with man made, demonic, sun god, pagan rituals.
(yule log,santa claus-God of love of money)

(EASTER(Ishtar-goddess of fertility)easter bunny-fertility-sex-goddess-americas cymble-playboys bunny-They are the sex goddess of today) (Tammuz's sun god worship- sacrfice of children)-dying eggs red.

I am not against celebrating Jesus's birth, and ressurection, Im against mixing those memories with paganism, and im against because i believe to God its an Abomination, we serve a Holy God, that very word means set apart. We are not to mix the Holy with the profane. We are told to come out of Babylon not mix with it.

Valintines day- rooted in lust. Example of effects-Kids are trained to date in preschool

Acceptance of Holloween is a big one. If u truly study the roots of these holidays, you find they are totally rooted in paganism, and now matter how much you package it to make it look harmless it still is founded on those roots. If root is evil, the plant will be evil, no matter if it is the most beutiful,tastefull looking plant. Just a little bit of leaven leavens the whole lump.

We must all seriously consider our lives and what we do and why we do them,are they traditions of man,have we inherited lies like Gods people did from their fathers in Jeremiahs day;
Jer 16:19 O LORD, my strength and my stronghold, my refuge in the day of trouble, to you shall the nations come from the ends of the earth and say: "Our fathers have inherited nothing but lies, worthless things in which there is no profit.
If they wordly we are told to get them out of our life.

We must remember we live in a wicked world, a fallen world that is in utter rebbellion against their creator, no matter how pretty it looks this is the truth. I think we are so mixed up in it we are descensitized to how evil it truly is, and to the compramise and paganism and idolatry in much of our lives. I only see these things because of Gods mercy in opening my eyes, and i am to speak up against these harlotries. We must remember satan is the god of this world, the spirit that works in unbelievers. Everything of this world is not of the Father.

I pray that those that read this would prayerfully and seriously consider the things ive spoken about, if any of these things argrivate you in hearing of them that could be a sign that it is bad, and satan does not want you to give up that thing, so he would get you agrivated and reject it as over the top crazy, etc. Search your hearts, allow the Holy Spirit time to speak if these things are true and any of these things apply to your life. Ask Him to show you anything that standing in your way of your relationship with Him. If you are a servant of Chrst your life is not your own, you are His, and our body is His, we must be willing to renounce anything and everything in ourlives that is contrary to Him. If we ignore them or stubbornly rebell they will blind us and draw us further and further away from Him. As i have renounced these things, i have grown closer and closer to the Lord, and my eyes are opened more and more. May Yahweh draw you all closer and closer to Him.

In messiah yeshua Jesus Christ our Lord,

Here is some resources that talk in more detail on these subjects has videos on many of these subjects.
Alo website and book called to long in the sun
And this book called The Two Babylons--By Alexander Hislop

 2006/3/18 16:54Profile

Joined: 2005/8/4
Posts: 33


You are so correct, Joshua. As these things are renounced in our lives, the closer and closer we become to God. It is my hope and prayer that ALL will come to this and to come to know the Lord and be obedient to His commands- not trying to justify their actions by contentiously arguing about what Jesus REALLY meant. It is wonderfully freeing to be His completely, to become as little children in our dependence upon Him.

One must admit, however, that all of this is sometimes difficult to come to terms with. We have grown up in a culture which tells us we can do whatever we want, be whatever we want, go wherever we want- basically totally living for self, even while saying we are Christian. And so many are happy with that- and really, why wouldn't you be if you didn't know there was more to Christianity. People really have deluded themselves into thinking that if they talk about it and sing about it, it's just the same as doing it.

But praise our GREAT GOD for His loving kindness toward us for opening our eyes to the evils of this present age. I thank my Sweet Jesus for showing me the truth! Only He can open our eyes to these simple truths. So many people think that my husband and I are completely off base when it comes to how we think and act about money. But I know what I read in the Bible and it is very simple- and there is no greater joy for me than to know I am using God's money for God's work and the furtherance of His Kingdom.

As in the days of Noah...

Mary Beth Ersig

 2006/3/18 18:44Profile

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