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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Some questions to those who would leave the sheep without a shepherd

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RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
We all want to get back to the NT model. Right? Its easy to talk it up, but we need some boots on the ground really ministering in these functions. The role of a pastor or 'shepherd' is one of tremendous stress and pain. the nay sayers had bit their tongues off had they known the lives of some of the men that they have put their tongue on. "It hath offended" they had said. Many have allowed their tongue to cause them to sin and have no clue. Like Mirriam and Moses. We need to be careful how we trifle in God's affairs.



Need I say again?


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Robert Wurtz II

 2006/3/14 10:33Profile
TonyS
Member



Joined: 2005/1/29
Posts: 154
Kansas City, Missouri

 Re:

Yes, Robert say it again, and again…..

And say more, please, For God's sake

Armchair quarterbacking you write? Perhaps it's called Internet Christianity and it may just be doing more harm than good in some instances. When we use PASTOR in quotes, nearly afraid to use the word, yes possibly something is terribly amiss. A genuine heart for revival, and then a rebellious spirit against Godly leadership and authority are growing together. But let not our hearts be troubled, God will separate it all out with precision.




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Tony Sexton

 2006/3/14 10:54Profile
h2oboy
Member



Joined: 2006/3/12
Posts: 89
Georgia, USA

 Re:

Dear Pastorfrin,
I am thrilled that there are men of God like you caring for the sheep. My hearts cry is that the Lord of the Harvest would send forth more laborers like you so that the sheep would not be scattered having no shepherd.

Luke 14:27-30
27 "Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. 28 "For which one of you, when he wants to build a tower, does not first sit down and calculate the cost, to see if he has enough to complete it? 29 "Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation, and is not able to finish, all who observe it begin to ridicule him, 30 saying,' This man began to build and was not able to finish.' NASB

How will God find such laboreres who count the cost the way that you did? The current system is producing a scant few. I believe that the Lord will raise them up through discipleship by men of a broken and contrite heart like yours.

How will we keep them serving the fold if we use the means of support that God ordained for His anointed to do other things?

I pray that the Church will catch the vision that providing for selfless shepherds like you is far more important than buildings and programs.

Thank you for your sacrifice for the sheep given as unto the Lord.

Jeff


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Jeff Smith

 2006/3/14 11:02Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi Tony,

Quote:
Perhaps it's called Internet Christianity and it may just be doing more harm than good in some instances.



Isn't it strange that you could almost get the impression that we are overrun with folk trying to get into the pastor positions as it is such a coveted function that everyone wants to get in it. The truth is, the rate of attrition is tremendous among pastors and they are aging in our circles. Why? Folk simply are not responding to the call. Why? Because they are told that going into the ministry will ruin their life- so they go on into other- more lucrative jobs.

So this leaves us with a small base to pull from. Now consider that there are stipulations to functioning in these roles. That narrows the field even more. Before it is all said and done there are few who will answer the call (like Jonah) and of those who are willing they don't measure up. The ones who have braved the foolery and down right meanness of their congregations are worn down and battered both from enemy AND friendly fire. Then arrive the Pharisees dressed as Prophets wanting to rebuke and reprove and yet have not lifted a burden ONE in the church [i]or[/i] their contribution is the sum total of their lip service. They are real good 'fault finders' but poor 'burden bearers'.

This also is vanity and vexation of spirit. It eats away at what zeal for God is left until they are near to finding a corner and assuming the fetal position. Soon even the faithful pastors are ready to throw in the towell and the nay-sayers are pointing the finger, "See! I told you they would fall. I knew he wasn't legit in the first place." Such madness and idle talk. Such fighting against the work of the ministry. It's all vanity and vexation of the spirit.

What happens? Its like the wolf that licked the frozen knife in the tundra- thinking he was getting a meal- when the meal was his own blood. The more the taste of blood the stronger and more focused the lapping- all the while plunging their own selves down into death. We should ask ourselves if the blood we taste from all this backbiting is not our own?

God Bless,

Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2006/3/14 11:26Profile
TonyS
Member



Joined: 2005/1/29
Posts: 154
Kansas City, Missouri

 Re:

Hello Bro Robert,

First, thank God for PASTORS, PASTORS of local Churches, whether small or large. Pastors who as you mention are on call 24/7. Pastors that when the sheep have jumped in a pit, will with humility help to restore that wayward sheep. Pastors who are there at birth, at graduation, at marriage and even then in death.

what are your thougts here:

Quote:
So this leaves us with a small base to pull from. Now consider that there are stipulations to functioning in these roles. That narrows the field even more. Before it is all said and done there are few who will answer the call (like Jonah) and of those who are willing they don't measure up.



Maybe so, and of those few that will answer the call, what wonderful fruit will be produced. There is nothing that can be compared to an individual who has been called and sent by God (not men). If it be true that eternal life itself is only entered through a strait and narrow way, and few there be that find it. How much truer then there will be a number smaller than “few” who will be ripe for the picking as Pastors?

I am always uncomfortable with the idea of just filling positions, simply because a position is available. And some near have the attitude if we use the scriptural guidelines for leaders then we will have no one to choose from. What would be so terrible with waiting on God, believing that He will send the workers for the harvest. What is really accomplished when we carelessly make assignments to positions?

Quote:
The truth is, the rate of attrition is tremendous among pastors and they are aging in our circles. Why? Folk simply are not responding to the call. Why? Because they are told that going into the ministry will ruin their life- so they go on into other- more lucrative jobs.



How would this fit I am curious with Bible Colleges and Seminaries moving away from degrees in Biblical studies for Pastorships and the growth of music, drama, etc… in their programs?

tonys


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Tony Sexton

 2006/3/14 12:24Profile
Christisking
Member



Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 671
Los Angeles, California

 Re:

Quote:
We should ask ourselves if the blood we taste from all this backbiting is not our own?



In some cases yes, but in most of the cases I would say no. The role of the "modern pastor" is un-biblical and actually in most cases does more to harm the sheep then to do them any good. Since the vast majority of pastors are actually demons disguised as ministers of righteousness and our current view of a pastor is so corrupted at this point in the institutional church, I would have to say again that the answer to your question above is no and the quote below is deemed inconsequential. Sorry to disagree with you Rob, but I think if you are to look at things in the light of Scripture and without the blinders of modern institution church you may be able to see where I am coming from.


Quote:
We all want to get back to the NT model. Right? Its easy to talk it up, but we need some boots on the ground really ministering in these functions. The role of a pastor or 'shepherd' is one of tremendous stress and pain. the nay sayers had bit their tongues off had they known the lives of some of the men that they have put their tongue on. "It hath offended" they had said. Many have allowed their tongue to cause them to sin and have no clue. Like Mirriam and Moses. We need to be careful how we trifle in God's affairs.




_________________
Patrick Ersig

 2006/3/14 12:47Profile
brentw
Member



Joined: 2005/12/14
Posts: 440
Ohio

 Re:

Let me ad just a little more to pastorfrin...

What about a leader in the church yelling at you in a meeting in front of the whole church, and storm out yelling I resign...people leaving after the leader resigns...CHAOS breaks out all because you stood for the Word.

What about a board telling you...your not going to get a raise this year...all because the chairman came into the church and didnt find the you in your office...but that chairman didnt know you were out visiting the people in your church that day.

What about studying hours upon hours preparing for bible study and only 3 show up or none.

What about finding out your chairman is a masonic lodge member in high degree.


Do I want to be a pastor again in the American church?

:-(


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Brent

 2006/3/14 12:57Profile
Christisking
Member



Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 671
Los Angeles, California

 Re:

Here is something to think about.


"Where in the NT are we told that it is supposed to be a 'pastor' leading? From the understanding which I've been given, it was the apostles, prophets, and elders who were looked to for leadership. This certainly doesn't mean that none of these people didn't have pastoral giftings, but no where have I found Scriptural mandate for 'pastors' to be leading. Could it be that one of the instituional churches main problems is that the 'pastors' (many of whom are gifted to be teachers, rather than primarily shepherds) are trying to lead when they were never meant to?

On an aside, I've been sent to many different heiresis', and I've been shown that most of these leaders who assume their positions are truly gifted teachers. This would explain the huge pride problem which is to be seen in leadership for knowledge puffs up, but love edifies. Teachers are primarily gifted to exchange knowledge, and with all of the 'schooling' that most attain, it seems that this may explain things a bit." William Floyd


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Patrick Ersig

 2006/3/14 12:57Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi Bro,

Quote:
How would this fit I am curious with Bible Colleges and Seminaries moving away from degrees in Biblical studies for Pastorships and the growth of music, drama, etc… in their programs?



Certainly ministers cannot be manufactured. There is no trouble waiting on God. Men cannot call- God must call. I do not believe in 'filling' positions either. I can tell from the tremendous lack of laborers that there has to be an equally tremendous lack of folk finding their calling. This is a prime reason [u]we[/u] were spread so thin for so many years. I just cannot believe that God has not called folk into the needy areas.

Also you know I don't go in for all the 'program' nonsense. Manufactured ministers leads to manufactured converts. Error begets error. My emphasis was and is the new birth. Get folk genuinely born again and we will have genuine Christians from which God can raise up ministers. The problem is at the very foundation.

My point in 'feeling' for the original post is that so many who are trying to do the work of the Lord are being compartmentalized with those who are in error. The sting is the same. I simply cannot go for that.

God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2006/3/14 13:06Profile
lastblast
Member



Joined: 2004/10/16
Posts: 528
Michigan

 Re:

Quote:
CHAOS breaks out all because you stood for the Word.



I say LET CHAOS break out.........God is doing a work when people rebell against the truth. Let that "work" manifest.

Quote:
Do I want to be a pastor again in the American church?



If God truly called you to shepherd, no matter what obstacles may come your way, HE will allow you to go forth in HIS power and you, if called, will go. In Him, Cindy


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Cindy

 2006/3/14 13:08Profile





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