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KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

Well, I continue to disagree with you but I count you as a brother...
I've read every book, every video + videos most people dont have, lots & lot of audio sermons, and you say not enough bible?? I say different.



I'm simply sayin sometimes revivalists such as Ravenhill don't preach much from the scripture. Sometimes he does a lot of stuff straight from the Scripture, but, frankly, sometimes he seems more interested in quoting Wesley or Finney.

Quote:

Led astray!!??? When I look at a giant like this.. I dont shoot from the hip...no,no..... "All things work together"



Yes, Led astray. He was manipulated like a puppet on a string. If you knew much of anything about individuals like Paul Cain and a lot of the "prophets" that were at that Anaheim meeting Ravenhill spoke at, and listened to how they pulled his strings (e.g. telling him what to pray for, getting him to sing their praises, etc), then you would conclude it as well. Don't let your admiration for Ravenhill keep you from discerning flaws when they are so evident. This is no shooting from the hip here.


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Jimmy H

 2006/3/14 21:26Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

Ravenhill saw and had real revival in a church...have we??



Ravenhill was never part of anything larger than individual church revivals. To my knowledge, he never partook of a revival that shook a city or nation. There have been many such revivals, and without a doubt, I'd say some on this message board have partook of such.

Don't get me wrong, Ravenhill was quite a powerful minister. But considering all the praying he did (10+ hours a day for probably most of his life), he never saw what he was praying for. As important as revival is, it would seem it doesn't simply come through prayer and fasting.


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Jimmy H

 2006/3/14 21:33Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

On another note...can someone please explain to me the deal with Ravenhill being led astray by false prophets toward the end of his life? I have never heard this and would like to know what happened.



Listen to the Aneheim Revival meetings Ravenhill spoke out with all the false prophets he was rubbing elbows with. If you know much of anything about the "prophetic movement," you should know right off bat that most if not all these folks he was speaking with were false. What's more alarming is that none of these "prophets" would even come close the description Ravenhill gave of what a "prophet" was.


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Jimmy H

 2006/3/14 21:37Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re: Ravenhill - influenced?

Quote:
Listen to the Aneheim Revival meetings Ravenhill spoke out with all the false prophets he was rubbing elbows with.

How did Ravenhill's associations with these "false folks" actually influence him to go astray? What false teachings did he adopt and promote?
How old was he when this happened? What might have "pulled" him off course?

I was once at a Kathrine Kualman crusade and sang in her choir. But one can't assume that I was led astray by her, just because of that. Could it be so with Ravenhill?
Diane


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Diane

 2006/3/14 22:28Profile
brentw
Member



Joined: 2005/12/14
Posts: 440
Ohio

 Re:

Quote:
Ravenhill was never part of anything larger than individual church revivals. To my knowledge, he never partook of a revival that shook a city or nation.



I dont know if you knew but Ravenhill was a pastor and had a real revival in his church!?
You see thats why we have to be careful of what we say about men of God....


_________________
Brent

 2006/3/14 22:55Profile
brentw
Member



Joined: 2005/12/14
Posts: 440
Ohio

 Re:

Quote:
I'm simply sayin sometimes revivalists such as Ravenhill don't preach much from the scripture. Sometimes he does a lot of stuff straight from the Scripture, but, frankly, sometimes he seems more interested in quoting Wesley or Finney



I totally agree we must always "preach the word" but God has used in the past just simple testimonies of past revivals to bring real revival to churches....


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Brent

 2006/3/14 22:59Profile
h2oboy
Member



Joined: 2006/3/12
Posts: 89
Georgia, USA

 Re:

Thanks Diane for drawing our attention to "preparing for it."

What do we mean by revival anyway? Are we discussing a renewed interest in religion? Are we refering to resuscitation of someone who is dead? Personally I view renewed interest in religion as simply moving from one form of death to another.

Jesus said in John 10:10 "I came that they may have life, and may have (it) abundantly." ASV
I have heard messages preached that this abundant life is having more things, just like the Joneses next door. Did Jesus come that we may have more of the same old same old?

John 17:3 "And this is life eternal , that they should know thee the only true God, and him whom thou didst send, (even) Jesus Christ." ASV

The abundant life that Jesus came to give is an extraordinary, personal, intimate, experiential knowledge of the Father and the Son.

Maybe the reason we desire 'revival' so much is that it is simply an IV of the life of God that He intends for us to experience everyday. If we perceive the presence of God as something that comes and goes based on prayer or good preaching then we will be starving much of the time. The promise of God to followers of the Lord, Jesus Christ, is, "If a man love me, he will keep my word: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him." John 14:23 ASV

The point being as we walk in obedience to the revelation of the Word of God that we have received, there will be a greater perception of the presence of the One, who said, "I will never leave you or forsake you." It is not God who comes and goes but our ability to perceive Him.

Luke 8:18 "Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not , from him shall be taken away even that which he thinketh he hath." ASV

If we are not diligent to obey the voice of God in the truth that He has already revealed, then we surrender ourselves to a thicker veil limiting our perception of His glory.

If we are talking about 'revival' among those who are not in the Body of Christ yet, then may I suggest that we join Jesus in praying, John 17:20-21

20 Neither for these only do I pray, but for them also that believe on me through their word;

21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, (art) in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us: that the world may believe that thou didst send me. ASV

It is unity of the Body under the control of the Head which will cause the world to hunger and thirst for righteousness. Our best human efforts will not produce the unity of the Body. We must understand with Jesus that only the Father can produce unity in the Body of Christ by infusing it with His love.

John 13:35 "By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another." ASV

When we surrender to the Spirit of God to form in us the image of the Son such that we value other believers, because Jesus is in them, in spite of doctrinal differences, and express that value in honor prefering one another, then the world will see something worth being revived about.

Let us drink minute by minute of His eternal life by acting upon the Word He has already spoken into our spirits and receive fresh revelation of His abiding presence and love.

Jeff






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Jeff Smith

 2006/3/14 23:49Profile
g3jedi
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Joined: 2005/6/24
Posts: 3


 Re:

J. Edwin Orr, Leonard Ravenhill, and many other preachers that you can hear on this site said that any church could experience revival at any time. They said that it depends on the people of God repenting. They were only repeating what God said in scripture. In 2 Chronicles 7 God put the ball in our court. The only reason anyone needs revival is bacause of disobedience to God. In medicine, who needs to be revived? Someone dead or almost dead. If you don't like the term revival, the Old Testament uses the term renewal. What needs to be renewed? Something that is old, worn out, not fresh. Revival is not something special that God blesses us with as we live out a "normal" Christian life.

The reason the process leading to revival is long is because the church in America is very comfortable. Look at the top of this page. See the quote by Stephen Olford? We are not desparate as a people. There might be desparate people scattered throughout the church but the church as a whole is not desparate.

Our problem is that we think that the way things are is normal. Look at Acts chapter 2 and you will see what is normal. We are mediocre at best compared to that.

 2006/3/15 0:03Profile
Bomar
Member



Joined: 2005/2/8
Posts: 112


 Re:

Quote:
Sometimes I think there is an unhealthy focus on "revival" by many.



Amen. This strong desire for "revival" almost ruint my entire ability to minister anything. To simply share the gospel, or give an open air sermon, or a small Bible study, I felt like a failure because the rushing wind simply wasn't shaking the walls.

The failure I perceived led me to extreme discouragement. Since being healed of that, I now look to Jesus, and just try to make a difference wherever I can - even if people aren't falling on their faces under my preaching (although many were convicted and motivated - I just couldn't live with such meager results as those).

Just my 2 cents.

 2006/3/15 0:09Profile
TonyS
Member



Joined: 2005/1/29
Posts: 154
Kansas City, Missouri

 Re:

Bomar,

I know Finney is well received here on SI and I write this only with trepidation. But it is very possible your thoughts have been shared by others, more well known through the years.

I have read accounts that evangelical Christianity virtually disappeared from western New York in Charles G. Finney's own lifetime. Even considering Finney's accounts of glorious revivals, most of the vast region of New England where he held his revival campaigns fell into a permanent spiritual coldness during Finney's lifetime and more than a hundred years later still has not emerged from that condition.

The Western half of New York became known as "the burnt-over district," some have attributed this to the negative effects of the revivalist movement that culminated in Finney's work there. Even Finney himself spoke of "a burnt district" in his Memoirs, and he wrote of the absence of any lasting fruit from his evangelistic efforts, when he said : [i]I was often instrumental in bringing Christians under great conviction, and into a state of temporary repentance and faith . . . . [But] falling short of urging them up to a point, where they would become so acquainted with Christ as to abide in Him, they would of course soon relapse into their former state. [/i]

One of Finney’s associates Asa Mahan wrote:[i]“During ten years, hundreds, and perhaps thousands, were annually reported to be converted on all hands; but now it is admitted, that real converts are comparatively few. It is declared, even by [Finney] himself, that "the great body of them are a disgrace to religion"[/i]

He also added: [i]“that everyone who was concerned in these revivals suffered a sad subsequent lapse: the people were left like a dead coal which could not be reignited; the pastors were shorn of all their spiritual power; and the evangelists—"among them all," he says, "and I was personally acquainted with nearly every one of them—I cannot recall a single man, brother Finney and father Nash excepted, who did not after a few years lose his unction, and become equally disqualified for the office of evangelist and that of pastor."[/i]

I am curious to hear from others what your studies may have revealed concerning any of this? I cannot help but wonder if this compares in any way to so many of our contemporary Evangelists and the extraordinary claims that are never substantiated. But when the Minister himself concedes that there was very little fruit from his efforts, I don’t know exactly what to make of it.

I do know this Bomar, God’s Word will not return void. Even when we do not “see” the results that we think (or others)think we should be seeing as you mentioned. Can it be enough for us to simply take our place in the work of the Gospel, for some that will mean planting seed, for others to water, for others to nurture and for others to harvest. And first and foremost before any work is attempted, is for us to be desirous to walk in the Spirit, having the mind of Christ, only that He might increase as we decrease.

blessings,
tonys

Resources used:
1)B. B. Warfield, Studies in Perfectionism, 2 vols. (New York: Oxford, 1932)
2)On Revivals of Religion: A Review of Charles G. Finney, by Albert Dod.
3)Memoirs Of Revivals Of Religion, Charles G. Finney





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Tony Sexton

 2006/3/15 0:36Profile





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