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Joined: 2005/12/14
Posts: 440

 Debating or edifying???

TWO animals are fighting over petty issues until they are forced to fight a lion. Now all of a sudden the 2 animals become friends to join together to defeat the lion.
The lion is the world and we are the animals fighting, debating over petty issues while sinners go to hell. The soul mission is to win souls. If the animals who are fighting could see the lion we wouldnt be loosing so many souls to the devil. There was very little debating in the book of Acts because they were to busy winning souls for Jesus. No time to look to each other because they were looking at lost souls together. One mind, one heart serving the Lord.
O if our churches would see lost souls in the light of eternity.
Let Jesus reign and self be slain.


 2006/3/10 22:16Profile


Not to worry brent ... the lions are coming ... just like the Coliseum days .... are ya ready ?

Not only has persecution always brought the true believers together in Unity, but it also ushered in the greatest times of Soul Winning.

You must read Acts from Paul's eyes too though ... he was constantly-constantly "contending for the truth".

So yes, they had both of these things in Acts.

Contending for souls to be saved and contending for truth to keep them saved.

Hang in there bro ... let's let all things refine us, even these small trials and tests.

I pray with you that our burden for souls will increase with each passing day.
And our discernment grows to know, what is petty and what is worth contending for ... as our hero Paul knew.

God Bless you brent.

 2006/3/11 0:51

Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791

 Re: Debating or edifying???

Debating is just good conversation if it is not heated. If there is no debate, how would any one be persuaded to a clearer view? why do we have public Debates? To me Debating is edifying.
We must learn how to debate with out getting emotional.

1. To deliberate on. To consider something; deliberate.
2. To engage in an unheated argument by discussing opposing points.
3. To engage in a formal discussion or a formal argument . See synonyms at discuss.

1. A discussion in which disagreement is expressed.
2. A quarrel; a dispute.
3. Archaic. A reason or matter for dispute or contention:

 2006/3/11 13:21Profile

Joined: 2005/12/14
Posts: 440



Debating is just good conversation if it is not heated. If there is no debate, how would any one be persuaded to a clearer view? why do we have public Debates? To me Debating is edifying.

Look at the state of the church. She has caused so many divisions over ONE or ONE verse sentance...just debating of course.

Once save always saved
divorce & reamarriage
sin to death
drinking moderation
and the list goes on & on...

Debating & deabting over these issues splitting up denominations. Conferences on every corner now but while our nation has been turned into hell. The way I see it we have 95% debating and 5% witnessing? Or how many hours a week or day do I or we sit in front of the computer instead of witnessing fo Jesus. How much of an American christian am I or we??
I was reading EM Bounds the other day and he was saying how desperate the hour is and that we have no time play games....I thought, Bounds said that over 100 years ago so what about now??


 2006/3/11 14:57Profile

Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791



brentw wrote:

Look at the state of the church. She has caused so many divisions over ONE or ONE verse sentence...just debating of course.

Once save always saved
Divorce & remarriage
Sin to death
Drinking moderation
Moreover, the list goes on & on...

Debating & debating over these issues splitting up denominations. Conferences on every corner now but while our nation has been turned into hell. The way I see it we have 95% debating and 5% witnessing. Or how many hours a week or day do I or we sit in front of the computer instead of witnessing of Jesus. How much of an American Christian am I or we?
I was reading EM Bounds the other day and he was saying how desperate the hour is and that we have no time play games....I thought, Bounds said that over 100 years ago so what about now??

You must not forget that we all live in a fallen world. Don’t blame all the evil in the church, just because of Debating. Blaim it on sin. Maybe even on lack of prayer, or hardness of haert.
Jesus told a parable about denominations

Mat 13:31-32 another parable put he forth unto them, saying, the kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
:32 which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.

The mustard seed is the Church that we read in Acts 1, 2, and 3. As it grew, it is the greatest among herbs because it is the True religion. However, it became a tree, it mutated into a some thing that it is not, a tree is not an herb. The branches are the different denominations and there are birds in all the branches. Birds are not good characters in this parable.

 2006/3/11 16:10Profile

Joined: 2005/12/14
Posts: 440


You must not forget that we all live in a fallen world. Don’t blame all the evil in the church, just because of Debating. Blaim it on sin.

Ravenhill said: "Were suffering not for the sin of America but of the church..."
Ravenhill said this in many different ways...
America is the way she is because of the church! Ravenhill said the tragedy is we have a sick church in a dying world.
When I say debating I'm saying we as the church are focussed on inside the four walls....
Ravenhill said he believed we as a nation are in a worst state than BEFORE the revival of 1741!!
Ravenhill preached at a pastors conference where I used to attend a church, and he told the pastors 'how much more worse does America have to get before you wake up!!?'


 2006/3/11 16:40Profile

Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA


Hi brentw, and everyone else.

brentw, I think I really appreciate what you are saying here, especially since early after my conversion I was especially prone to get into arguments about all sorts of doctrines and issues. I am pursuaded that the fault was greatly with myself. I do still hold firmly to many particular doctrines, however my zeal to defend them I hope has been tempered by a bit more discernment and a withering away of selish-pride, which no doubt promoted many disputes.

Conferences on every corner now but while our nation has been turned into hell.

I think this qoute from Revolution In World Missions by K.P. Yohannan is very telling also

The United States, with its 600,000 congregations or groups, is blessed with 1.5 million full-time Christian workers, or one full-time religious leader for every 182 people in the nation.

Now, here are some statistics cited in the tract by Ray Comfort, America America

1. %60 of married couples admit to adultery

2. approximatley 1 in 5 people in the US, or 45 million individuals, are infected with the virus that causes genital herpes.

3. 380,000 rapes in 1993

4. a 1997 report said there were 665 million porn video rentals

5. 1,267,415 abortions in 1998 and more than 40 million since Roe vs. Wade.

6. 18,000 murders in 1997. An average of 20,000 per year. Over 200,000 during the 1990's

Something I see around the city of Philadelphia is a significant occult influence. I don't want to describe all this stuff becuase I don't feel right about. Just take my words for it: it's as though the sewers of hell have been opened and let to spill out into the streets. Filth and wickendness are very common in all different forms. I am not exagerating.

Is this isolated? I doubt it. The place I lived in Baltimore before had the same things. Some of this stuff is exceedingly gross. I am certain there is much that goes on that we just do not know about and that is probably good.

Praise be to God however, there was a perverted store that opened up in the neighborhood that I lived in before and I made a point of standing in front of it sometimes while I was out sharing the gospel and praying for the Lord to bring it to nothing. Shortly before I moved I saw that it looked like it has closed down!

Whatever is the cause, we need to do what we have been commanded to do and obey the truth that God has given us.

God be with you brother, for His name's sake.

Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2006/3/11 19:24Profile

Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791



brentw wrote:
Ravenhill said he believed we as a nation are in a worst state than BEFORE the revival of 1741!!

the answer for that reason is this:
Mat 12:43-45 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
:44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
:45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.
and he told the pastors 'how much more worse does America have to get before you wake up

I agree absolutly 100%
I believe that the Amarica needs to go into a time of lack and need, and maybe the Church even need persecution to wake it up.

 2006/3/11 19:24Profile


[url=]2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [/url]

I refer you to this thread because the same conversation is now in two places.

All the things mentioned in Chris' post are a problem because we've yelled "Unity" and "Don't rock the boat" for at the minimum of 30 or so years now.

It's because of this "let's not disagree" attitude that we are being taken in by the heretics that are scattering the flock and causing this "falling away".

Our Classic Authors were not like that At All.

One of the earliest books from our church fathers is called "Against Heresies".

We are to contend, but not "fight" and you can "contend for three years at one Church" as Paul did and not be in sin or out of God's Will.

The Church is in the shape it is [u]because[/u] we are yelling Peace, Peace when our Classic Authors, even up to Ravenhill did not speak lightly or gently as this younger Church wishes everything to be.

YES we are to have an equal burden for the lost ... but WHAT are we bringing the lost INTO ?

Churches full of heresy and apostasy !

John the Baptist turned Israel on it's head, then Jesus, then the Apostles and looking at Paul with his writing Half of our N.T. ... where is this cry for PEACE coming from ?

It comes from not being grounded in Truth.
And because we know we cannot defend many Doctrines, we get nervous and want to end all contending.

And this is why those list of sins are at the proportion that they are and we are IN the Apostasy, because we are passive to the unbiblical extreme.

We fear exposing error because it's not EASY on us.

Where are the men of old ? Where are the Prophets ? Where are those with discernment and the zeal for truth, that sent our forefathers to the stake to burn, in order to protect His Truth for This Church ?

Do you mean to tell me that all of these Audio sermons that we have on this site are wrong because they Raised their Voices or yelled ?

"Give me a break please" ... I saw a Discernment Ministry article with those words in it.
I'll try to find that article. I thought that title was funny. It was called "Touch not my anoited - give me a break" Ha !

Let's get serious with these thoughts though.


 2006/3/11 19:53

 Re: What for ?

Volume 6, Issue 6
by Sandy Simpson

I have noticed a decided tendency on the part of a growing number of churches and pastors to distance themselves from discernment ministries and hard issues. Now let me say at the start that if you are one of those church leaders who do stand for the truth and use those involved in discernment ministries, keep up the good work. I realize full well that pastors in particular do not have the time to check out all the materials that come through their churches. This is where you can make good use of those who do discernment research. That being said, I see a concerted move by many churches toward a critical attitude concerning discernment ministries in general. Not every situation is the same but, from what I see, there are a number of factors that play into this new bad attitude towards discernment.

First, a number of large churches are in the middle of building or expansion programs and they don’t want to offend any of their constituency and lose funding. I believe they have found it easier, in their minds, to bury any dialog on difficult issues that face the church and concentrate on being "friendly" with everyone. I have seen a growing number of churches drop financial backing for missions and missionaries who are involved in cult and/or discernment ministries because they feel it is just too controversial a stand for their church at a time when funding for building programs is taking center stage. What they don't realize is that if they decide to back down from standing for the truth it won't be long before their churches are filled with thrill seeking nominal Christians on the hunt for wilder experiences and exciting myths rather than biblical teaching. I have seen it happen over and over again.

Another factor in the new "dising" of discernment ministries is the move toward "seeker friendly" services and outreach programs that preach "God is love" without the offense of the cross. Those who stick to the old rugged cross and the hard truths of the Word are looked upon as out-of-date old "fuddy duddies" who go around seeing every glass as half empty. Many churches have decided that, since positive reinforcement and lots of fun activities builds numbers quickly, those who are perceived as "negative" and "old" must be pruned off the tree at all costs. You would be surprised at the talk that goes on today in the church behind the backs of Christians involved in discernment ministries, or even those who doggedly stick to the truth of the Word of God. I guess the feeling is -- if you can't stifle the message, stifle the messenger. You do that by passing around unverified stories and vilifying people on the basis of something someone else said or did, e.g.. guilt by association.

I am here to stick up for those Christian brothers and sisters God has placed in your church to help the church stay on track with the Word, and keep the heretical riff raff away from your church pulpits, music ministry and bookstores till they repent. When a brother who is a discernment researcher reads a book in your church bookstore and finds some serious heresy within, that person should not be told they are making something out of nothing out of hand. Every serious concern should be investigated and the elders, pastors and others leaders in the church ought to take heresy very seriously so they can make informed decisions about what they will and will not allow into their church.

Unfortunately many churches have apparently decided to give up the fight. Let me tell you how that happens. It usually starts with unbiblical music being played for worship and sold in the church bookstore, then moves to books written by Third Wavers being promoted and used in the church. Then videos like Transformations hawking an unbiblical prayer agenda are shown, and special speakers with dubious connections and unbiblical doctrines are allowed into the pulpit. Finally you begin seeing "revival" meetings replete with the "impartation". It all leavens in so innocently and slowly that most churches don't even know what hit them until it's too late and, of course, by that point they are afraid to offend their constituency by making a strong stand against anything. This is where the discernment ministries can help. They can help you stand against the river of apostasy that is trying to enter every Christian gathering even as we speak.

Church leaders need to realize that discernment ministries are an asset and not a liability. Pastors and those in discernment ministries need to sharpen one another. Issues should be discussed, not shoved under the rug. Why are we so afraid to talk to one another other about difficult subjects these days? Is our belief system so fragile and our personalities so insecure that we are afraid of correction? The mistake I am seeing being made today is that biblical terms like "admonition", "exhortation", and "rebuke" have become nice Christianized clichés we use on Sunday morning but have almost ceased to exist as a tool for the building up of the Body of Christ.

Sound doctrine is not an option for Christians. It is something we need to guard at all costs, and here I am not talking about minor issues on which Christians may disagree but on core doctrines. If you want your church to be leavened into apostasy, simply drop your guard. It will happen so subtly you will probably not even notice it.

The Bereans were commended for being more noble because they searched the Scriptures daily to check out what Paul preached. I don't expect or desire any applause for myself and that is not the intent of this letter. This e-mail is my attempt to step up to bat on behalf of those in your church who have a deep love of the truth and are willing to put their reputations on the line to stand up for it. They ought to be treated with the utmost respect.


The feature article in this issue is "The Importance of Sound Doctrine" by A.W. Tozer, The Best Of A.W. Tozer, pg. 174-176, taken from Man,. The Dwelling Place Of God. Though this article was written a long time ago, it shows that the seeds of unbiblical doctrines that were beginning to be accepted in the post-Modern church have today blossomed into full blown heresy. Yet we have become so used to false teachings and teachers that we have become numb and unresponsive to the need to separate ourselves from them as a holy people unto the Lord. This article is a call back to standing up for the truth. I am convinced that we are swiftly entering a time when the issue will not be "Renounce Jesus or die" but rather "Don't judge, don't discern, don't speak out, and don't be divisive or die". Will most Christians be able to stand that kind of test? I wonder.

In Christ,
Sandy Simpson, missionary

The Importance of Sound Doctrine
by A.W. Tozer, The Best Of A.W. Tozer, pg. 174-176, taken from Man, The Dwelling Place Of God
It would be impossible to overemphasize the importance of sound doctrine in the life of a Christian. Right thinking about all spiritual matters is imperative if we would have right living. As men do not gather grapes of thorns nor figs of thistles, so sound character does not grow out of unsound teaching.

The word doctrine means simply religious beliefs held and taught. It is the sacred task of all Christians, first as believers and then as teachers of religious beliefs, to be certain that these beliefs correspond exactly to truth. A precise agreement between belief and fact constitutes soundness in doctrine. We cannot afford to have less.

The apostles not only taught truth but contended for its purity against any who would corrupt it. The Pauline epistles resist every effort of false teachers to introduce doctrinal vagaries. john's epistles are sharp with condemnation of those teachers who harassed the young church by denying the incarnation and throwing doubts upon the doctrine of the Trinity; and Jude in his brief but powerful epistle rises to heights of burning eloquence as he pours scorn upon evil teachers who would mislead the saints.

Each generation of Christians must look to its beliefs. While truth itself is unchanging, the minds of men are porous vessels out of which truth can leak and into which error may seep to dilute the truth they contain. The human heart is heretical by nature and runs to error as naturally as a garden to weeds. All a man, a church or a denomination needs to guarantee deterioration of doctrine is to take everything for granted and do nothing. The unattended garden will soon be overrun with weeds; the heart that fails to cultivate truth and root out error will shortly be a theological wilderness; the church or denomination that grows careless on the highway of truth will before long find itself astray, bogged down in some mud flat from which there is no escape.

In every field of human thought and activity accuracy is considered a virtue. To err ever so slightly is to invite serious loss, if not death itself. Only in religious thought is faithfulness to truth looked upon as a fault. When men deal with things earthly and temporal they demand truth; when they come to the consideration of things heavenly and eternal they hedge and hesitate as if truth either could not be discovered or didn't matter anyway.

Montaigne said that a liar is one who is brave toward God and a coward toward men; for a liar faces God and shrinks from men. Is this not simply a proof of unbelief? Is it not to say that the liar believes in men but is not convinced of the existence of God, and is willing to risk the displeasure of a God who may not exist rather than that of man who obviously does?

I think also that deep, basic unbelief is back of human carelessness in religion. The scientist, the physician, the navigator deals with matters he knows are real; and because these things are real the world demands that both teacher and practitioner be skilled in the knowledge of them. The teacher of spiritual things only is required to be unsure in his beliefs, ambiguous in his remarks and tolerant of every religious opinion expressed by anyone, even by the man least qualified to hold an opinion.
Haziness of doctrine has always been the mark of the liberal. When the Holy Scriptures are rejected as the final authority on religious belief something must be found to take their place. Historically that something has been either reason or sentiment: if sentiment, it has been humanism. Sometimes there has been an admixture of the two, as may be seen in liberal churches today. These will not quite give up the Bible, neither will they quite believe it; the result is an unclear body of beliefs more like a fog than a mountain, where anything may be true but nothing may be trusted as being certainly true.

We have gotten accustomed to the blurred puffs of gray fog that pass for doctrine in modernistic churches and expect nothing better, but it is a cause for real alarm that the fog has begun of late to creep into many evangelical churches. From some previously unimpeachable sources are now coming vague statements consisting of a milky admixture of Scripture, science and human sentiment that is true to none of its ingredients because each one works to cancel the others out.

Certain of our evangelical brethren appear to be laboring under the impression that they are advanced thinkers because they are rethinking evolution and re-evaluating various Bible doctrines or even divine inspiration itself; but so far are they from being advanced thinkers that they are merely timid followers of modemism-fifty years behind the parade.

Little by little evangelical Christians these days are being brainwashed. One evidence is that increasing numbers of them are becoming ashamed to be found unequivocally on the side of truth. They say they believe but their beliefs have been so diluted as to be impossible of clear definition.

Moral power has always accompanied definitive beliefs. Great saints have always been dogmatic. We need right now a return to a gentle dogmatism that smiles while it stands stubborn and firm on the Word of God that liveth and abideth forever.

 2006/3/11 20:13

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