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 Re:

Chip Brogden is familiar with prophetic gifts and that is why I point our brother there.

I pray it is possible that Chip would answer an email from Joshua.

I know Chip is very busy, but occasionally he does answer.

I believe he could help. The Word of God does say that the prophets words should be tested by the prophets 1Co 14:29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.

Chip is sound, so I believe he would be a good one to turn to for those who feel called or used in what they call prophecy.

I personally don't want to see anyone more get hurt by all of this.
Sound counsel may be in order from outside ... like Chip.

Email him Joshua.

 2006/3/11 11:47
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4529


 Re: Prayer Request - God's Truth

Hi YeshuaIsMyGD...!

Quote:
My best friend and I received a Word from God that God is going to destroy a church within 3 years. I ended up delievering the word.
...
So my prayer request is, that God CONFIRMS His word, with NUMEROUS witnesses, not just 2 or 3, but a PROFOUND amount, so that it's INDESPUTABLE that this word is from God.

Josh, I have a few questions about this situation:

1. How did you receive this word?
2. What do you mean by "God is going to destroy a church within 3 years"? Do you mean the building, the organization, the people -- or a combination?
3. How did you go about delivering it? In other words, did you pull that pastor aside and speak to him first?

I have known three individuals that were completely convinced that "God told them" that a disaster was going to befall certain local church fellowships. In fact, two of these individuals told me that they placed "fleeces before the Lord" and He confirmed both the message of destruction and the time frame for when this destruction was going to take place. None of this destruction ever befell those local church fellowships, buildings or individuals.

Why am I saying this? We must be very careful before we "prophesy" such destruction. First of all, it is dangerous to quote God as being so destructive through judgment when He [u]always[/u] desires to draw people unto Himself. Yes, from time to time, God has poured out judgment upon individuals, organizations, governments and even entire cities. However, God [u]ALWAYS[/u] provides a way of escape for those that are willing. He has never delighted in the death or destruction of the willing. This is one of the most valuable lessons to be learned from Jonah. Secondly, if by chance we are wrong -- then our "prophecy" could serve to literally turn people away from our message and even the faith. What if, by chance, three years passes and nothing happens. Will a “[i]cop out[/i]” excuse be made (like the ones used by famous TV preachers when their “prophecies” do not come to pass)? Regardless, we must be careful to understand the criteria of distinguishing between a true and false prophecy (such as is given in Jeremiah and Ezekiel). There are indeed a lot of false prophecies given today. Most, of course, are meant to “tickle itching ears.” But there are some that are meant to “call down fire from Heaven” -- when the heart of God is draw men unto himself.

I have a very difficult time with many “personal prophecies.” I have been “prophesied” over more times than I can count. Most of the time, those “prophesies” were but vague or “fuzzy” words spoken that could have been true about any number of believers. How many times do we need to hear those “[i]your music will heal the sick and cast out demons[/i],” “[i]you will preach to many in many nations[/i]” or “[i]you have concern for loved ones[/i]” type of prophecies? Or how many times will we hear about a charismatic believer that gets rejected and “shakes the dust off” but feels the need to “prophesy destruction” to the individuals or body that rejects him? It happens more often than I can count.

I have spoken to the Lord about all of the many prophecies that I have been given. I have asked that any “prophecy” spoken to me should be specific before I will receive it. Its not that I have doubt that God can and will “give me a word” through a fellow believer. It is just that there are so many zealous individuals that unwittingly “speak for God” when the words are his or her own. The good thing is that I have been spoken to by individuals that did not know me – yet spoke words that were undeniably specific (including particular situations and circumstances that I was going through).

But even after such specific words, I still bring them before the Lord. Why? Because there are also counterfeit gifts flowing through churches. Satan is definitely a painter of confusion – doing his best to confuse truth from lie.
Quote:
So my prayer request is, that God CONFIRMS His word, with NUMEROUS witnesses, not just 2 or 3, but a PROFOUND amount, so that it's INDESPUTABLE that this word is from God.

Brother, my prayer is that your “word” never comes to pass. I pray that, if the Church that you spoke to is experiencing problems with sin, unbelief, or false doctrine, God will draw those individuals unto Himself. God’s heart in this matter is that [u]all[/u] of the people in that Church come to Him. He desires that [u]all[/u] of those individuals will know Him as we desire to know Him.

My brother, please do not mistake this post as an attack on your word or "seeds of doubt" thrown maliciously at your ministry. This is just a little of my own feeling from experience about "words of prophecy." I do believe in words that originate from the heart of God. On several occasions, I have felt prompted by the Lord to speak such words to individuals that I did not know. On two occasions, the Lord gave me the actual names of the individuals (whom I did know). And on another occasion, the Lord let me know about a very specific situation that the individual was experiencing. I told this person, and with tears in their eyes, that person asked "[i]How did you know[/i]?!?" With tears in my eyes, I told that person, "Because I just prayed for you and this came to my mind. This is how much God cares for you!!!" I spoke these words with much fear, tears and trembling.

That being said, I do know of an individual that told a Church about something that was going to happen to their building. This Church had been without a pastor for several years because the elders and congregation of the Church were rejecting prospective pastors. My friend (an evangelist) told them that if they were to reject another man that God had sent to be a shepherd to them, then their steeple would be struck by lightning. Two weeks later, the Church rejected another prospective pastor. That evening, their steeple was destroyed by a bolt of lightning. The next day, the elders called the prospective pastor back. He was overwhelmingly elected the following Sunday.

:-)


_________________
Christopher

 2006/3/11 13:34Profile









 Re: Prayer request - God's truth

Yeshua said

Quote:
God never condemns His people

Depending on how you would translate the word 'condemns', I am reminded of the seven churches in Revelation, when Jesus says 'I have somewhat against you'. However strong or mild a rebuke, the word of God contained within it should cut to the quick of the open-hearted believer, bringing both conviction and healing. Only you know how your pastor's phrase struck you... remembering, as Chris has said, that the word of God need not come through a Christian.


Mike,
Quote:
I am frankly more troubled that there is no scriptural counsel here whatsoever.

This brings us back to the question of what the Holy Spirit has been given to us for. I keep getting the feeling that you have never been in a [i]sound[/i] church, where the gifts of the Spirit are used every Sunday... where people have grown in experience and faith through using their gifts. If I'm wrong on this, please tell me. I think you would be very reassured to visit such a church, where elders are honest, spiritual, biblically sound and used to exercising faith in what God speaks to them and what they hear through other members of the Body, from Him.

When a person with the gift of prophecy receives a word from the Lord, they give it, right there and then. They don't reach for a concordance or their Bible, to check up on it in any way at all. And certainly if they hesitate, and it's a word for the church that day, God will [i]definitely[/i] bring it out some other way - either through another similar prophecy, or, through the preaching and singing and praying. The Holy Spirit inspires this. It was my regular experience, although I did not have the gift of prophecy in that way. Certainly, I learned to 'hear' what God was saying to the church, through the word He brought through those who did.

In Joshua's situation, with the gifts of which he has regularly testified to us, I don't 'hear' the question to be one of whether or not this is a word from God, but rather, having received it, knowing it is a word from God, how should he have dealt with the knowledge from God, and the sensibilities of the people to whom His word was directed. Also, I might have asked God 'why'? Why is He going to destroy this church?

Usually when God destroyed something, it was because of secret or overt sin, which was harming people or bringing the whole group under something other than His counsel. God only tolerates that for so long, and then His jealousy requires that those who will return to Him be released, that they may return to Him.

Certainly, God is not going to destroy HIS CHURCH. He might well destroy a local assembly who are failing to obey His promptings to them.

RonB has expounded on this in the What is church? thread, where the threat (by the Lord) of the lampstand being removed from all the believers in a certain [u]city[/u] (not just those in one lesser locality or branch of a denomination) is unmistakably real.

 2006/3/11 14:38









 Re:

I'd love to reply to everyone of you, but it might take more time than I intend on spending online.

To sum up MY heart on this situation, please read Amos 7.

This isn't 'my' word. I know it's going to come to pass. Do I want it to? NO! I'd be the last one to want that to come to pass, but I know the Lord will do it. 'He has seen enough' There church has been in tremendous sin for years upon years. They quench the Spirit and douse the flame, do you not think God will judge?

I love all those people, I consider them friends,I didn't just go to 'some random' church, I KNOW these people! But I obey God rather than man. The only thing I did OUT OF IGNORANCE, was I didn't submit underneath the authority in a Godly way.

I 'delievered' the word I received from God by writting on a piece of paper and descreatly placing it. I didn't sign my name, and yet they knew it was me, (cause they don't get 'new' guests)

So, instead of 'debating' this till we all die and fall into sin. Instead, brothers and sisters, I BEG for your prayers. I need strength right now.

When a brother asks you for a fish, do you give him a scorpien? Please, my 'fish' is prayer, don't give my chastesisment. I'm getting it enough from the people CLOSEST to me.

Please continue in prayer, I think this 'situation' is almost over.

 2006/3/11 15:53
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Foolishness.

Dorcas,

This is all a bunch of rubbish. Let him answer for himself.

Quote:
They are not light words, to accuse you of being used by Satan.



But destroying a church...

Have heard enough of this kind of nonsense before and to think that anyone of us can come here and make note of it without consequence, without good reason, without scriptural precedent, without testing, without fear of just Who it is we have to give account to, to spiritualise this without question... Your reasonings are absurd and without biblical precedence.

Where is the fear of God?
Where is the trembling and deep sorrow if this was to really be true?
Where is the warnings?
What about the consequences?
What happens when this doesn't come to pass?
Does the prophet retire and go to shame?

[i]Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart. Therefore thus saith the LORD concerning the prophets that prophesy in my name, and I sent them not, yet they say, Sword and famine shall not be in this land; By sword and famine shall those prophets be consumed.[/i]
Jer 14:14,15


_________________
Mike Balog

 2006/3/12 0:16Profile









 Re:

I pray for you Mike, that the Lord may show you the Truth.

 2006/3/12 12:28
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Joshua,

With all due respect don't pray for me in this matter, this is not the issue of my opinion here.
I am greatly concerned about what you are doing and the damage you can cause and may be causing already.

That what you have expressed here originally by posting this has opened it up to those who care about you and I am appealing to whether or not you have truly thought this through to it's ramifications and consequences. The questions I raised earlier are those that stood out as you seem to be in doubt about much of this and have left out a great deal of particulars. With the seriousness of what you are 'prophesying' it would be foolish to just take your word for it as it was expressed earlier. It is far too simple to dismiss this all out of hand by your last statement.

Not quite sure which is more upsetting, this particular 'word' you believe was your's to deliver or some of the counsel that is ready to affirm it without question. This is not the mistaken notion often attempted that the counter rebuttal proves the prophet correct. Oftentimes it is the very voices we don't want to hear that we should be paying closer attention to and a few of them are here, asking questions because they are concerned enough for your sake.

What warrant do you have scripturally for this?


_________________
Mike Balog

 2006/3/12 13:15Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Joshua,

Bro you are on the edge here!

This could be a learning experience...

I'll be honest and tell you I think you are in the wrong here. Now I'm not saying this to hurt you. On the contrary, you seem young enough to learn not to take the path so may "prophetic" people follow of rejecting sound counsel from older saints.

Prophetic people are famous for feeling misunderstood and isolating themselves from the rest of the body. They console each other that the reason their words are rejected is because people don't like the "truth." Actually this isn't the case all the time. Most "prophets" are offensive because they prophesy with impunity.

My input into your delimma is to consider the words of other saints including your pastor. Afterall, even Peter was told by Jesus that he was being used by Satan at one point...and Peter was the 'rock'! Anyone of us can "be a tool of Satan" if we are not careful. Speaking publicly for God is sober business.

If you think I am being unfair advising you to listen to other saints in this matter, then perhaps you could listen to yourself...

Quote:
About me being a 'tool of Satan' by my own pastor, I will be speaking to him about that. Because, he is making God in his own image.
(God never condemns His people)



Well, apparently he does according to you.

Quote:
...the church 'I' condemned



Keep seeking the Lord on this matter Joshua,

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2006/3/12 15:43Profile









 Re:

Boy, this is a rough one and I can sympathize with all of the Reply-ers on here.

It's rough on me, because of who is posting and because of emotional entanglement with every single reply-er.

So this has to be from "me" and I have to stand aside from my emotions for all.


#1 Dear Joshua ... I referred you to Chip because he writes the most about Prophets or those given to the Prophesies.

He is an older man than you, and could immediately judge a prophecy and "if" you are "called to the prophetic", He is the man that can be trusted, to guide you into these things.

A Prophet is not a lone-ranger anymore, under the New Covenant.

So maybe your not a Prophet or maybe you are, but nonetheless you are "pronouncing prophecies" and under the New Covenant, prophets are still subject to other prophets in the Church.

Secondly, "IF" you are a prophet or are given "prophesies" or "gifts of healing", as I've said on this forum many times, "you don't go around announcing it". That would be pride, despite the fact that it may be a legitimate prophecy.

You have to learn to only bring it here, IF you want others to "prove it" ... in the sense of "testing all things".

We all are Commanded to "test all things", even a "Prophet's" prophecies ... even in the O.T., they were to test the Prophets accuracy etc, to prove if he or she were "right on".

#2 Dear Mike, I think it's only fair that you be given the right to disagree with Joshua and felt in your last post a love there.
But if I for one, called another person's post "rubbish", you'd be barking at my heels in a heart beat. You know that.
I'm not trying to rebuke a Moderator here, but from my own past experience, I've been rebuked for saying less by you.
I love you and my heart sincerely goes out to you for the weight of the burden for this website and the protection of it is a mutual burden we share, but as you told me ... we need to watch our words a little more carefully.

Dear Dorcas, I only can say what I've said to Joshua.

And I only say what I have to Joshua, because I am a prophetess. HA !!!

All joking aside for a minute ... AS SOON AS I got saved, the Lord used me in discernment and prophecy .... BUT, BUT, BUT ... I was new to these things, and had to come under the teachings of other prophets to understand when "the flesh" is mingled in (mixed cloth) and that prophets are still only Human and can have "personal feelings" get mingled in with their "hearing".

Not saying that "this word that Josh got was 100% off" ,,, but by leaving a note and then seeming callous to the response and posting these things here, shows an immaturity in the "gift".

Yes, when a prophet feels they have a word, "they" should test it with the Lord first, before giving it.
Then, they just speak it out to 'whomever' the Lord leads them to speak it to. Not leave notes, etc..
And yet still, even if they tested it with the Lord, they still need to stay more humble than any other of the gifts or callings, because of the gravity of this calling and the things "spoken".

If we look at the state of the Church in general, my God, there are few and far between that are legitimate.

If, I felt the Lord had this word for a Church that I "loved", as Josh said he did, then I already know how the Lord would deliver this message .... In deep grieving and tears, I would make an appointment with the Pastor and tell him.

And then depending on his response ... the next move, if I still felt the burden from the Lord, I would ask the Lord to put the words in my mouth to speak out loud to the whole congregation of "what" the Lord has against them, to give them the opportunity to repent and not give a "specific time" of when this "destruction will come". Too many 'young' folks in the Fellowship that would not know how to take "prophecies of destruction".... and I know the Holy Spirit is a Gentlemen when it comes to children, the young in Christ, the overly sensitive and the mentally challenged.

Most decent sized Churches consist of all of these types.

We do need to come under some sort of "testing field" in our prophesies and/or "how" they are delivered and "where" they are delivered.

I believe you believe all of this, so I don't actually feel I'm coming above you on this, or anyone else.

When I was younger in Christ, the enemy "has" infiltrated through my emotions before and given "words" that were not from God ... so I did have to test things, but I had to "learn how" to "test things" and that took much time in maturing in these gifts and it takes every single one of us, no matter what gift we have or don't have, to "Learn His Voice" above all the Others out there, including our own (flesh/human voice inside of us.).

No human is 100% inerrant or totally protected from emotions or influence from the enemy. We all are susceptible to human and demonic influence, other wise the warnings to "not be deceived" wouldn't be in His Word.

Josh's note that he wrote and left 'somewhere' may be from God, but there is still a 50/50 chance that it is not.
I judge my own words that way and I think Chip, just for one, would say the same thing.
IT is Yet to be proved.

My personal opinion is, in 3 years the whole country and all the Churches will be not as they are now. But, I've also learned to add, "but I could be off here".... 'despite' that I think I'm right.

Humility in a prophet and maturity are two of the most needed virtues a prophet can seek.
So instead of fires from Hell ... these fires coming at Josh should and could be used as the fires of testing and maturing him.

I appeal again that Josh contact Chip ... to run this by him and to learn from him.
Like Samuel's school of the prophets, that all prophets SHOULD attend IMHO.

I'm praying for Peace and Love between us ALL.
And Romans 8:28 being "for" vs. 29 for all of us.

just me again

 2006/3/12 21:38
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Quote:
Boy, this is a rough one... because of who is posting and because of emotional entanglement with every single reply-er....



I feel the same way Annie. The forum can seem cold and formal regarding issues with friends that could be better discussed face to face.

Quote:
A Prophet is not a lone-ranger anymore, under the New Covenant.



Truly, none of us are lone rangers. We need each other to hear the Lord.

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2006/3/12 22:15Profile





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