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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791



h2oboy wrote:

Rev 6:2 "And I saw, and behold, a white horse, and he that sat thereon had a bow; and there was given unto him a crown: and he came forth conquering, and to conquer."

Is it possible this hero riding on a white steed who comes to overthrow tyrannts and despots is the great champion of the people, who takes the control out of the hands of the elite and gives it to the common man, democracy, which had its roots in Rome? This great system of governance, which has no real Lord or Master, promotes free enterprise, that wonderful cup of wine that makes all the merchants of the world drunk with greed (causing the death and destruction of many righteous men and women) will be lamented when kings shall rise and smite her.

1st Seal:
Ref. Zec 6:1-8)
Rev 6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, come and see.
:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a [b]bow[/b]; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

5115. τόκον toxon tox'-on from the base of 5088; a bow (apparently as the [b]simplest fabric):--bow[/b].

4735. στέφανος stephanos stef'-an-os from an apparently primary stepho (to twine or wreathe); a chaplet (as a badge of royalty, [b]a prize[/b]in the public games or a symbol of honor generally; but more conspicuous and elaborate than the simple fillet, 1238), literally or figuratively:--[b]crown.[/b]

[b]Note:[/b] The word for white is the same word to explain Jesus on the mount of transfiguration in Matt. 17:2
The bow in his hand is like a ribbon in the form of a bow, like one would receive as a prize (blue ribbon or bow is for first place). This would make sense because He has a crown which is also a prize. This horse refers to Jesus in Rev. chapter 12:5-10 which describes Jesus winning the battle and conquered Satan.

[b]Rev 12:5-10 [/b] And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
[b]Note:[/b] This is the ascension of Christ. This scripture passage goes back with more details in v. 7-14

[b]:6[/b] And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she had a place, it having been prepared from God, that there they might nourish her a [b]a thousand two hundred and sixty days[/b]
[b]Note:[/b] This verse is telling of the Jesus’ victory on the cross. I am referring this to when the Messiah shall be cut off in the last week in Daniels seventy weeks as told in Dan. 9:25-27. Now, the thousand two hundred and sixty days in this verse is the first half of the seven years when God will finish His dealing with Israel and graft them back into the Olive Tree and Rapture the Israel of God to Himself as read in Rev. 7: then His wrath is poured out. I will Spell these verses out for better understanding to you, the reader.

[b]Dan. 9:25
Know, then, and understand[/b] This is a command to "know and understand"
[b]that from the going forth of the commandment[/b] or the issuing of the decree; the next part tells us which decree or commandment.
[b]to restore and to build Jerusalem[/b] Ref Neh. 2:1-8. Daniel is told that a decree to restore which had been broken down by Nebuchadnezzar and his army. There is some debate over which decree it was and its exact date. The decree, generally accepted, is that of Artaxerxes, issued approximately 445 B.C. when Jerusalem was to be restored.[b]unto the Messiah the Prince[/b] or until the Anointed One, or the ruler, which is Jesus.
[b]shall be seven weeks[/b] or 49 years
[b]threescore and two weeks[/b] or sixty-two or 62 x 7 years which is a total of 434 years:
[b]the street shall be built again[/b] which is in Jerusalem.
[b]and the wall[/b] which is of Jerusalem shall also be built again Ref. Neh. 2:17-18; 6:15-19,
[b]even in troublesome times.[/b] or in times of trouble Ref. Neh. 4:-6:14.
This gives a total of 483 years, leaving one week or one period of 7 years left.
The seventy weeks are divided into three parts.
(1) Seven weeks or 49 years. This may also have covered the rebuilding in troublous times.
(2) Sixty-two weeks or 434 years. This covered from the end of the 49 years to, perhaps, the triumphal entry of Jesus into Jerusalem before His crucifixion. These weeks are all fulfilled.
(3) One week or 7 years remain. This is the Tribulation, which is still to come as of the writing
of this book.
Thus, 49 years + 434 years gives us a total of 483 years. [u]This leaves one week or one period of 7 years to fulfill the total of 490 years.[/u]

[b]Dan. 9:26
And after the sixty-two weeks[/b] which is 434 years
[b]note:[/b] the 434 years, plus the 49 years, equals a total of 483 years total, this leaves the 7 years left. they haven't been fullfilled yet. So, I believe in the "gap" theory that it will start again.
[b]shall Messiah[/b] which is Jesus Christ or the Anointed One will.
[b]be cut off[/b] killed or Isa 53:8 for he was cut off out of the land of the living. Jesus Christ was crucified.
[b]but not for himself[/b] He did not die for Himself, Jesus never sinned. He died for those who should trust on Him as their Lord and Savior.
[b]and the people,[/b] which are the people of the Roman Empire, the fourth beast, the people.
[b]of the prince[/b] or ruler.
[b]that shall come[/b] The prince that shall come is referring to the Antichrist that would come in the future.
[b]shall destroy the city[/b] which is Jerusalem.
[b]and the sanctuary[/b] or temple. fullfilledf in 70 A.D.
[b]and the end thereof shall be with a flood,[/b] which can indicate with great force or mightily,
[b]and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.[/b] 2 Thes. 2:4.

[b]Dan. 9:27
And he [/b] The Antichrist, which shall come from the people that destroyed Jerusalem and the temple, in approximately 70 A.D.—the Roman Empire,
[b]shall confirm[/b] the covenant to sign or agree to treaty agreement, or peace accord
[b]with many[/b] Israel and others
[b]for one week:[/b]or one ‘seven,’ or for seven years. The confirming or signing of this covenant might be the beginning of the last remaining seven years, what we call the Tribulation.
[b]and in the midst of the week [/b] or after the [b]thousand two hundred and sixty days[/b] or three and one-half years or 42 months from the end of the midst of the 7 year Tribulation. This is showing that there are two parts to the Tribulation, separated by this event or by the seventh seal which we read about the silence in heaven for about ½ hour. The last 42 months of the Tribulation is also called the "Great Tribulation," or Gods’ wrath.
[b]He[/b] The anti-Christ
[b]shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,[/b] which take place in the temple. This shows that the sacrifice and oblation will restart in Jerusalem as in olden times during the first part of the Tribulation. By this and other Scriptures Rev. 11: 1, we also note that a temple will have to be rebuilt in Jerusalem for the sacrifice and oblation during the first part of the Tribulation.
[b]and for the extremity of abominations[/b] or because of the least of the abominations being placed in the temple
[b]He[/b] the Antichrist
[b]shall make it desolate[/b] This is referred to as the "abomination of desolation," in Mt 24:15. The temple is defiled. Some kind of abomination is set up on a wing of the temple, maybe the image that he sets up. People will be required to worship him or it or be put to death-ref Rev 13:14,15.
[b]even until the consummation[/b] The end
[b]and that which is determined shall be poured upon the desolate.[/b] on the Antichrist or the temple that was made desolate is included in "that which is determined".

[b]:7[/b] And war occurred in Heaven, Michael and his angels making war against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels made war,
[b]:8[/b]but they did not have strength, nor yet was place found for them in Heaven.
[b]:9[/b] And the great dragon was cast out, the old serpent being called devil, and, Satan; he deceiving the whole habitable world [b]was cast out[/b] onto the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
[b]Note:[/b] This is one of the victories of the cross. It is saying that Satan can not accuse us before our God any more because he is cast out or is thrown down; all he can do is accuse us before our faces. (Ref. John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be[b]cast out[/b].)
[b]:10[/b] And I heard a great voice saying in Heaven, Now has come the salvation and power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of His Christ, because the accuser of our brothers is thrown down, the one accusing them before our God day and night.

 2006/3/13 15:16Profile

 Re: You missed my point

The popular thing is to point at the Romans

It's not popular like a fad, it's popular because scripture plainly describes the [b]location[/b]... a city on seven mountains (or hills, if you will). Ever been to Rome? I have. The travel brochures proudly call Rome "The City On Seven Hills". I was there when I was in the Marines long before getting saved. But I remember my visit there vividly.

my point is that there are many many more more qualified

Maybe so, in your human way of reasoning (a stumbling block for all of us). But not for God. There is no other institution that has as much world influence as the Vatican. Not even the UN, which is basically worthless. And wealth? The Roman Catholic Church is more wealthy than most nations in the world. Rev 17 describes even the colors that the Harlots wears. Did you see the TV when the Pope died? Scarlot and Purple was everywhere! And golden everything.

My personal choice is the USofA

But scripture makes it clear... the Harlot is located is a [b]city[/b]... not a nation. Do you believe scripture, or do you change it to fit what you want it say? Interesting it's called "Vatican [b]City[/b]".

You may disagree that's OK.

Thanx... on this issue, I will.

The main premise of this thread is based on the heresy of "Replacement Theology", and I reject it.


 2006/3/13 15:32

Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791

 The true "Israel of God" includes us & most importantly them.


KrispyKrittr wrote:
The main premise of this thread is based on the heresy of "Replacement Theology", and I reject it.

It is not "Replacement Theology". It is "grafting in Theology".

[b]Rom 2:25-29:[/b] For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
[b]26:[/b] Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
[b]27:[/b] And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
[b]28: For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly;[/b] neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
[b]29: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly;[/b] and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

[b]This is the true Israel of God:
Gal 6:16[/b] And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the [b]Israel of God[/b][u](the Church and saved Israel)[/u].

[b]Gal 3:28[/b] There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

[b]Col 3:11[/b] Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

When the time of the gentiles is complete, THEN God will move His attention to Israel once again then Israel will be completed and saved.

[b]Rom. 11:15-32[/b] For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
[b]:16[/b] For if the first fruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
[b]17[/b] And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakes of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
[b]18[/b] Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bears not the root, but the root thee.
[b]19[/b] Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
[b]20[/b] Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou stands by faith. Be not high minded, but fear:
b[]21[b/] For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. [b]22[/b] Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
[b]23[/b] And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
[b]24[/b] For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
[b]25[/b] For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.
[b]26: And so all Israel shall be saved:[/b](Christians and Jews) as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
[b]27[/b] For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
[b]28[/b] As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
[b]29[/b] For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
[b]30[/b] For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
[b]31[/b] Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
[b]32[/b] For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

 2006/3/13 16:26Profile


Krispy, Before the Pope died, one of his last "words" was, 'follow the UN'.

You may not realize how this was so very prophetic, as it is "the false prophet" that gives power to or endorses the beast.

There are two beasts from Daniel and Rev.... one is a world "governance" and the other "the man of sin" over this world system.

Rome does not match up the verses in Rev. 18, but the Pope does match the "false-prophet".

Hope you don't mind me saying all'a this.

Jer. 50, 51, etc and Rev. 18 is the description of Babylon and there is only one location on this earth that matches the over 100 perimeter descriptions of Babylon.

But Israel will be taken by Rome and all other religions will be allowed in there, except the Real one.
That I have in the form of treaties and News Articles.
They call Jerusalem, the "International City" and Rome owns most of it.
From Israel news men, this is a fact.

But the religion of Babylon is all "faiths" merging with Rome to form this New Agey type monster and Babylon and her false-teachers and prophets are the cause of this "merger" with Rome and the "writers" for the new world religious initiative.

All backed up by News Articles.

Come out of her my people, is what we need to see & hear, and not just coming out of "Rome"... but out of this system that has birthed this 'Beast System' in our country, sitting in NYC .... the NWO & UN was birthed here. And the Vatican has their own seat at the UN .... as they are their own seperate country.

 2006/3/13 16:27

Joined: 2006/3/12
Posts: 89
Georgia, USA



Logic wrote:

[b]Note:[/b] The word for white is the same word to explain Jesus on the mount of transfiguration in Matt. 17:2
The bow in his hand is like a ribbon in the form of a bow, like one would receive as a prize (blue ribbon or bow is for first place). This would make sense because He has a crown which is also a prize. This horse refers to Jesus in Rev. chapter 12:5-10 which describes Jesus winning the battle and conquered Satan.

Logic are you saying that the first seal has already been broken?

Jeff Smith

 2006/3/13 16:33Profile


Lord have mercy .... I should have read Logic's post up there.

Now you've got the first seal horseman is JESUS ?

Oh Lord ... I'm going to say this right out and not be afraid of what "man" will say or do to me, but this "nefarious" Non-sense is the fruit of the [u]OVER-SPIRITUALIZING OF SCRIPTURE[/u] OF MIDRASHIC INTERPRETATION.

Phewy, didn't think I'd see that JUNK here.

Sorry Logic, but you keep following this stuff and you will have some major rough days ahead being deceived by midrashic 'interpreters'.

 2006/3/13 16:44

Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791

 Re: Rome

[b]Rev. 17:10[/b] And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he comes, he must continue a short while.
[b]Note: 1.[/b] [u]Egypt[/u] (1600-1200 BC),
[b]2.[/b] [u]Assyria[/u] (900-600 BC),
[b]3.[/b] [u]Babylon[/u] (606-536 BC) which is the lion [b]Dan 7:4[/b]
[b]4.[/b] [u]Medo-Persia[/u] (536-330 BC) which is the bear Dan 7:5
[b]5.[/b] [u]Greece[/u] (330-146 BC) which is the 4-Headed leopard [b]Dan 7:6[/b]
[b]6.[/b] [u]Rome[/u] (200 BC-400 AD),
[b]7.[/b] [u]Rome[/u] [b]Dan 7:7[/b] the world will come back to the Roman type of Government.

[b]Rev.17:11.[/b] And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goes into perdition.
[b]Note:[/b] there is going to be a newly reformed Roman type of Government(the type that was in power in Christs' time) that the anti-Christ will take advantage of, but I don't think it will be Papal Rome.

I think the False prophet will come from Israel:

[b]Rev 13:11[/b] And I saw another beast coming up out of the earth. And it had two horns like a lamb, but spoke like a dragon.
[b]Note:[/b] The first man Adam, God formed from the dust of the earth and crafted it into human form. Since Adam is the first man formed from the ground or Earth, in Jewish thought, the ground or Earth represents the Jewish people. This beast is believed to come from out of the Jews. This second beast comes up out of the earth is the false prophet (anti-John-the-Baptizer if you will). This lamb-like beast will exercise prophet type authority. As John the Baptizer was an Elijah figure heralded the Messiah, As John the Baptizer directed worship to the one baptized, it will be the same with this second beast in verse.

Why would Israel follow anyone but the Masiah that they think is still coming?
If another Israely persuades them that the Anti-christ is there hoped mesiah.

 2006/3/13 16:56Profile


Logic... your name is fitting. Just change it slightly to "Man's Logic".

Not attacking you friend, please be mindful of that. But your main error is the same as that of the Gnostics. Over spiritualizing scripture was their heresy, and you're all over the map with the same "reasoning".

So much so that I will not even involve myself in this discussion anymore. It's too far over the edge, I dont see the point.


 2006/3/13 17:01


Gosh I hate picking on anyone ... this is breaking my heart up.

I love you guys so much, but Logic, I KNOW 'where' you got this teaching and I'm telling you, even though I said earlier in this thread, that I would not post to it much, to prevent "bumping it" ... it's getting Bumped without my help and now that it's UP during the day, I have to post to this.

This is from a teacher/pusher of Midrashic Interpretation of the Scriptures who BLASTS "PROTESTANT" INTERPRETATION {Actually, Blasts everyone's interpretation methods except his own ... ask Art Katz} and when I come back from the ER tonite, after my husband gets home and takes me there ... I'm gonna have to post to this.

You can't see that you're blowing your own beliefs with your own Scripture references.

Please look at just this one verse you've posted and implied "Rome".

Rev.17:11. And the beast that was, [b]and is not[/b], even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goes into perdition.

"And is not" in John's days ??????

Rome was very much present while John was at Patmos.

This is not just over Jerusalem, though that part of this thread is bad enough, but using Midrashic interpretation on this forum turns my guts inside out.

I will try to not be emotional in the rest of my posts on this thread. Right now I'm just a bit out of my mind with this SEVERE reaction to all of these ants bites and my Dr. said, get to the ER as quickly as possible.

But I'll be back with a leveler head later and we'll need to look at Midrashic Interpretation, that comes from a 'Messianic' {mind you} teacher who is calling The Holy City - "Babylon The Mother of Harlots".

Oh well, it'll be let's play hangman with Annie. :cry:

 2006/3/13 17:17

Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791



MeAgain wrote:
Lord have mercy .... I should have read Logic's post up there.

Now you've got the first seal horseman is JESUS ?

Oh Lord ... I'm going to say this right out and not be afraid of what "man" will say or do to me, but this "nefarious" Non-sense is the fruit of the [u]OVER-SPIRITUALIZING OF SCRIPTURE[/u] OF MIDRASHIC INTERPRETATION.

Phewy, didn't think I'd see that JUNK here.

Sorry Logic, but you keep following this stuff and you will have some major rough days ahead being deceived by midrashic 'interpreters'.

What if I was to say that God is giving me this way of seeing the scriptures as you say that He did for you?

I see all this as logical puting scripture with coalating scipture.
Bible interprates bible, Revelations interprates Revelations. Where else or what else do you see the Horses.
Read these coalating verses with these horses and tell me that you don't see what I do.

White horse coalates to Rev.12:5-10

Red horse Rev.12:11-17
which represents the devils’ wrath. This is when martyrdom started to happen. Martyrs are always butchered or slaughtered, red being the color of blood.

Black horse coalates to Rev.13:6-10,17
that balance in his hand could also translate as "yoke" in which God yokes us with Israel.

the pale green or gray horse coalates to Rev.13
he rider here is the only one who is named of the four horsemen also the only one with a follower which is also named. Since there are two characters in this passage, they could be compared to the Anti-Christ and the false prophet. The world has always tried to extinguish or abolish and even destroy the Jews and it also hates the true church of Christ since it hated Him first of all. Reference these verses to Chapter 13: of Rev.
Sorry Logic, but you keep following this stuff and you will have some major rough days ahead being deceived by midrashic 'interpreters'.

I am not Over spiritualizing and I am not following anything but what I get from the Scripturse as all people would.

 2006/3/13 17:20Profile

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