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Discussion Forum : News and Current Events : The Spread of Democracy is Confusing

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ccchhhrrriiisss
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Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4582


 Democracy or Liberty...

Hello...!

I am so amazed at people using their freedom to complain about democracy -- when their freedom is provided because we have a democracy that allows it. Democracy, like all forms of government, can be either good or bad. Democracy is simply a form of government where the actual government consists of the people who consent to be governed. It allows the people to have a say (even if it is just a single vote) when a matter is brought before them.

America is blessed to have had a government that was created by a deeply religious and moral group of founding fathers. Many of our ancestors left nations that had state or national religions. So the first guaranteed freedom that was included in the Bill of Rights was that of religion and expression. This insured that a single denomination or group did not dictate the policies of the government or the practices and beliefs of the people.

A democracy in another part of the world may not include the Christian heritage that is enjoyed in the United States. A democracy in the Muslim world will include Islamic references. But remember, democracy does not always translate to freedom. The United States Constitution protects the rights of all its citizens -- not just the majority or minorities. This is [u]liberty[/u] -- that is supported because of democracy. But in some instances, the majority in a democracy might prefer to limit rights. In fact, some democracies can serve to limit freedom. This is the "democracy" that you see in Iran. It is the hope of the U.S. Government that the democracy in Iraq will be a pure democracy -- one that will protect the ideas and views of all people regardless of race, faith or political beliefs.

Every time I read my Bible in the United States, every time I tell others about Jesus, and every time I attend meetings with other believers, I am thankful for the liberty provided by our Constitution. I do not mistake democracy for my faith. But I am so thankful that this form of democracy has stood the test of time. It is sad that many of us do not make the most under the circumstances by which we live. Do we share the Lord in our nations that allow us? If we don't -- then shame on us!

Sadly, the freedom of religion is coming under attack more and more in the United States. Groups like many in Hollywood, the media and the ACLU attack or openly mock Christianity with more and more frequency.

On a side note, I would be very careful before I make such accusations that openly question the spiritual condition of President Bush. I don't know where he stands with God -- but neither does anyone else. Why should Christians join the often Christ-hating media that attacks the President daily? If you don't agree with him -- be thankful that you are not under the same scrutiny of faith. If you were the President, then someone somewhere will find something about which to question your salvation. And instead of talking about or complaining about him -- why not join us in prayer for him? He is the elected leader of the most powerful nation in history. He needs our prayers. Why don't we join in prayer that the Lord does an awesome work in his heart and life?

:-)


_________________
Christopher

 2006/2/17 19:55Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 but bro Chris...

bro Chris
what is freedom though?how does the freedom we promote via spreading of democracy fit with what the Lord says? if we are free to do as we wish is that not bondage to sin? the freedom we seem to hold most dear is that which comes from a national independance rather than that which comes from freedom in Christ. we don't need rights bro. the early church didn't have them and they were used of God to turn the world upside down. i think in some regards the idea of being entitled to rights has helped to make us impotent in terms of being salt and light to the world. we tend to see ourselves as people from whatever country we are from first and then christians second or somewhere down the line. we are Christians first and whatever else next, in fact we're Christians period and the rest really is of no consequence because to be in Christ is to have it all.

i'm sure we all know what democracy is but let it be clear that the way God rules is not a democracy, it's totalitarian, God's in control, there is no deliberation on what He passes down, either one gets with the program or you deal with the consequences. look at how the Lord dealt with Israel, after the golden calf issue, the Lord sent a plague on the people.He told them not to make any graven images or have any other gods but Him, they didn't comply, there was no discussion of it, the Lord sent a plague right quick.democracy is humanism. if we were a Christian nation, our type of government would be a theocracy or more theocratic.

there are some benefits which come with democracy i'll admit. but it seems as though (to me anyway) the debate and deliberation afforded us by democracy has crept into our practice of the Faith as it pertains to the Lord's word and how we ought to conduct ourselves and the like and that is a tool of the enemy.

i don't know Bush's spiritual state or standing with the Lord but i know he's there because God put Him there for whatever God needs done. one could argue both ways that bush is saved or not. i think he is, i admire his candor as far as speaking about his faith despite the many haters out there.

we enjoy many luxuries here afforded us by democracy but in short order it will all evaporate the Lord tells me. when our position at the top of the world is brought low and our wealth, military might and beloved system of government comes crashing down (and it will) what do we do then? at that point it won't be about putting God first coz there won't be anything else left, it'll be about putting God only and that's the sort of spiritset/mindset we need to have. when our rights are taken from us, we'll know for sure where those who're sold out to God are at coz them people will be the only ones chillin while everybody else is freaking out...


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Farai Bamu

 2006/2/18 1:03Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
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Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4582


 Re: but bro Chris...

Hi IRONMAN...!

Actually, I was agreeing that democracy in some nations could actually be dangerous to minority groups. But LIBERTY is often associated with democracy -- and rightfully so. In my opinion, democracy can only be good if it comes with certain inalienable liberties.

As an undergrad, I read some of Thomas Jefferson's writings. While his spiritual condition is often questioned by some modern historians -- by today's standards he would be preaching on television. ;) But one of the things that he stated concerned liberty. When deciding upon what form of government this new nation should implement, Jefferson reasoned that regardless of the form, liberty was essential. He refused the notion of a theocracy or a monarchy. His reasoning? Christ never forced anyone to accept him. But of course, Jefferson reasoned, there are eternal consequences for a refused acceptance of Christ. Why should a government force a people to accept the beliefs of its leaders? But a Constitution would allow the law to prohibit undermining the government.

And actually, this is also evident in spiritual matters. The entire plan of Creation was to allow man to choose Christ out of our own free will, rather than by being forced to. The Lord does not "force" us to follow him. He gave us the will. It is most pleasing to God that we [u]choose[/u] him -- even though the world offers us pleasures, distractions and lusts.

Should the rest of the world be introduced to democracy? Democracy is simply the voice of the people in their government. But even more important than democracy is the need for personal liberties. My sister's brother-in-law is a missionary in a Muslim nation. He can only work there after being listed as a "teacher." He was forced to register his Bible when he entered the country (like guns are registered in the U.S.). He was warned that he cannot take it out in the view of Muslims. He told me that the greatest difficulty in winning people to Christ was the fact that people are legally prohibited from converting to a religion other than the state form of Islam.

That Islamic state has a totalitarian form of government. Does that nation need democracy? Only if that democracy is also combined with liberty. But can a [u]free[/u] [u]democracy[/u] be achieved in such a state? It worked in Japan following World War II.

Japan went from a theistic totalitarian form of government to a free democracy in a matter of a decade. In 1940, it was illegal to publicly practice Christianity. In 1945, citizens of Japan were granted freedom to worship. Today, there are many believers in Japan (over a million) -- and those believers are not prohibited from practicing their faith in Christ. Many more believers left Japan during what was known as the Japanese Diaspora.

I agree with what you said about President Bush. There have been several believers on this website that have publicly demeaned, criticized, slandered, and questioned the salvation of President Bush. The President publicly professes faith in Christ -- and sometimes shares his testimony of meeting Christ. Is he truly saved? I don't know -- and I don't believe that the Lord would even tell me. Members of Hollywood and the media continue to mock the President with great delight. Some mock his actions -- but many actually mock and hate him because of his stated beliefs (against abortion, against homosexual marriage, etc...). I believe that he is a smarter man than the media and liberals claim. He earned a BA from a liberal school (with a GPA a point higher than John Kerry), and then went on to another liberal school where he earned a MBA (making him the first President to do so).

I don't know the President, but I know some people that do. They said that he is a quiet, private man. They also said that he feels awkward in the public, and it is reflected in his public appearances -- leading the critical mind to accuse him of being unintelligent. But they also told me that he is deeply sincere in his faith and yearning for a relationship with God. That is why it is quite disheartening to see people that profess Christ mock him so easily or question his relationship with God -- since they do not know him personally. Regardless of whether or not people agree with his policies -- there should always be humility in our speech about him (and prayer in our closets).

:-)


_________________
Christopher

 2006/2/18 2:20Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro Chris
what has liberty to do with our practice of the faith? what fellowship does the invention of a governmental system by the ancient greeks have to do with the Lord's Church? it seems to me that whether in a democracy or dictatorship the bottom line is to practice the Faith. it's easier here because we don't experience persecution as our brothers in Asia YET though. i think the freedom/liberty democracy affords us is a hollow worldly one which is different from the freedom we have in Christ.

as it pertains to free will, that's a complicated issue. Christ says not only "whosoever will..." but also "as many as you have given me" which shows that God the Father is the one who calls people to Christ. it's not free will in the way that we think of free will (being able to do whatever) but it's being able to do only what the Lord allows in His sovereign will. The fact that God's sovereignty in all things is not taught much is probably an underlying cause of our poor perception of what free will really is. we are God's elect and that speaks more of Him choosing us first than the other way around. since we know a bit about democracy we can say to elect is to choose right?

you said Japan had made it illegal to pratice Christianity for a time but that says to me that there were some who practised it anyway under penalty of the law. which says to me we don't need the rights democracy affords us in all truth.

about the president i think he is saved. i don't agree with all his policies though but the Lord is working all things for our benefit and so that His plan is seen through. for instance people talk about the war in Iraq being one on terror, wmd etc, there're more to it and the Lord has us there to set up whatever it is that He's about to do next.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2006/2/19 13:58Profile





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