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Compton
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Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re: A Conservative Yankee in King David's Court

Quote:
i'm not entirely sure exactly what the zionist's deal is (thought is seems to me it's to do with the restoration of all these lands to Israel



As a prelude to Ron's possible answer let me express an issue that occurs to me, as someone not British but rather some religous neocon right-wing Yankee;-) ... just a question I have for Zionism...especially "Christian" Zionism.

As Neil has stated...

Quote:
HaShem lent the Haganah and the Irgun a hand in giving the Royal army and the other dregs of the british empire the military drubbing it so richly deserved...Menachem Begin and the Irgun knew how to handle that lot.



My first contention is that you can't be against war on principle and support Zionism with any real commitment. I mean we may cheer some of their orthodoxy...but their orthopraxy involves military power.

Indeed, before premptive strikes became known as the "Bush Doctrine" Israel already had a name for it 1981---it was called the Begin doctrine...that is no Arab state will be allowed to obtain Nuclear weapons...a policy [url=http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/Osirak.html]enforced[/url] with American made F-15s and F-16's. Now as a conservative I certainly understand this sentiment...yet as a Christian their moral quandry is no less then the ones we Americans face now.

So my question is this...could Zionism really be a political Ismael...once again Abraham trying to see God's promise fulfilled in human terms.

For the record I am not anti-any people. (There are plenty of ideas out there that don't get my vote...) Also, I do not entertain any of those thoughts about closing down the state and dispersing the Jewish people. Good heavens no, their right to statehood is as valid as any nation...My question is simply this: How is Zionism's moral clearance to militarily defend the state of Israel different then the claim of American patriotism?

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2006/2/10 0:09Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro mike
some stuff to chew on there i see...

Quote:
So my question is this...could Zionism really be a political Ismael...once again Abraham trying to see God's promise fulfilled in human terms.



like that bit :-?


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2006/2/10 0:18Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

I have attracted a few criticisms from time to time on SI. I usually try to answer the questions and refrain from personal justification. However, to be publicly and personally denigrated as a 'Jew-hater and to be publicly branded as being 'indwelt' by an 'unholy spirit' is a new low in my SI experience.

I will leave the latter assertion; the Lord knows them that are His. As regards the former I will answer as best as I can. To be a 'Jew-Hater', of course, is to deny all claims to being a Christian; my Saviour was a Jew. To 'hate' any ethnic group would be utterly incompatible with any profession of Christianity. I not only 'love' Jewish people, I actually 'like' them. I love Ashkenazi Jewish music. On average I watch 'Fiddler on the Roof' once a week. (You would need to know my family to know why this is not an exaggeration; sometimes I watch it twice a day. I estimate that over the last 10 years I have watched it well over 500 times!) I admire and honour the amazing contribution that the Jewish people have made to our world in art, thought, and science.

As regards their history, twice I have wept my way through Auschwitz and once through Majdenik. No-one can visit Auschwitz and be a 'Jew-hater'. I have read widely on the history of the Jewish people. As a people their industry and tenacity are a constant wonder to me. I am fascinated with the Jews.

So how could such a person be earn the epithet of 'Jew-Hater'? I am unconvinced by the eschatological theories which see them as God's secret weapon to be used in the last days. Simply due to my age and pattern of life, I doubt there are many here on SI who have spend more time studying the prophetic scriptures. And yet I remain 'unconvinced' by any of the 'off the shelf' interpretations to future events. Please note that I do not have an alternative agenda. I am not promoting any view of prophecy, I am just unable to say that the currently available solutions convince me. For this I am judged a 'Jew-Hater' and discerned to be indwelt by an 'unholy spirit'. God alone knows the heart. As regards my own consciousness of my heart states, I have nothing but love for the 'Jews'.

There is one aspect with which I cannot identify. Coming from the mongrel race of the English, I have no consciousness of 'my people'. I know that the USA with its immigrant history often has a clear sense of 'our own people' among the Irish, Italian, Puerto Ricans etc. My accuser refers to the 'Jews' as 'my people'. I understand the passion of this but cannot enter into it. My sense of belonging is to the Church of Christ. I feel a strong identity with those who have been 'called out of' every kindred (family), tongue (language group), people (locality) and nation (ethnos, people group). I know this is difficult for some saints in the US to appreciate but I have very little sense of national belonging and hardly any patriotic spirit. The Church is 'my people'.

If my insensitivities in this area have caused offence I sincerely apologise and ask your forgiveness. If your forgiveness is conditional upon my endorsing your interpretation of future events I cannot , in conscience, accommodate you.


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Ron Bailey

 2006/2/10 4:27Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi All,

If I might humbly interject a few cents of my experience in sitting in many discussions among Messianic Jews (Believing Christians), I am first taken by the meticulously chronicled history that the Jewish people have not just recorded; but can readily recite and discuss. There is no wonder a conversation like this 'jumps the rails' so quickly and destructively when folk have a working knowledge of issues that guys like me have never even heard of. [i]The following is a bit of what I have picked up as a sort of 'fly on the wall'.[/i]

I was sitting in a class once when a young lady, attending for her first week, got riled up when the professor said that Christians do not love the Jews. The lady commenced to telling the teacher that she was raised in a good Christian home, dad was a pastor, and from a child taught to 'love' the Jews as they are God's Chosen People. The teacher was neither impressed nor moved by her claim. She became quite upset as he became increasingly solumn. The last thing I recall him telling her was, "You are not in love with the Jews, you are in love with the 'idea' of the Jews." That was her last class and I never saw her again.

Honestly, many of the Jewish people I have met have a personality that is very sharp and to the point; as those I know love to debate and exercise their intellect and vocabulary over those they converse with. Art Katz himself suggests that we need to step it up intellectually if we are going to meet with the average Jew in the marketplace of ideas (my paraphrase). I, personally, am not use to folk casting off all tact in conversation. I have had to work at getting past that, but continued to love them with the love of Christ in spite of it all. I guess what I am saying is, I was once in love with the 'idea' of the Jews, but I had to come to terms with that when I was interacting with them on a regular basis.

Those of them who know their history blame the 'church' for much of why there are not more Jews that believe. They point to the near entire early church to Acts 15 being Jews, and then ask- what happened to those stats? Why are believing Jews exceedingly more rare than they were in the 1st century? To answer that question from [i]their[/i] vantage point is well beyond the scope of my post; but it majors on two things as far as the Church is concerned:

1) The extreme persecution of Jews over the centuries at the hand of so-called Christians.

2) The stripping away of the Jewishness of believers in the first several centuries of the Church and subsequent cladding of hellenism in its place. They cannot understand how Christ would have preferred them to take on a Greek cultural stance in place of their Jewish culture.


This is why their books and classes emphasize the 'Jewishness' of the early Church and its leaders.

This is why folk immediately associate anything anti-Israel as anti-Jew. It happens that they have not felt truly welcome in near all of the lands where they have lived throughout the centuries. They have been 'scattered' into the nations and the nations have not always liked it. The Zionists feel life in Israel for Jews will once and for all give them a homeland that they can thrive in and defend themselves. [u]This is a gross oversimplification, but its a start.[/u]





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Robert Wurtz II

 2006/2/10 9:09Profile
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:

Neilgin1 wrote:
edit....theres no fruit in this discussion, I'm finished with it. God's covenant with Israel is eternal.



If you regret or don't like what you put, please just make a reply about it. I'm sure someone else will probably mention this but if it were not for other's quoting you I would have no idea what is going on.

Thanks.


_________________
Josh Parsley

 2006/2/10 9:17Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Regretably,

Neil has been removed from participation in this forum.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2006/2/10 9:25Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Quote:
The teacher was neither impressed nor moved by her claim. She became quite upset as he became increasingly solumn. The last thing I recall him telling her was, "You are not in love with the Jews, you are in love with the 'idea' of the Jews."



Robert,

Recently I've read a book called [url=http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0395779278/103-9653798-9015818?v=glance&n=283155]Constantine's Sword: The Church and the Jews: A History [/url] which is a meandering survey of the past 2 centuries of Christian antagonism towards Jews. One of the issues I found challenging is, as you mentioned that many Jews resent Christian "love" for Jews. The reason, as I understand from reading this one book...is that after centuries of "church" oppression, there are some Jews who resent what seems like a recent fashionable Christian infatuation for all things Jewish.

Perhaps the most striking example is when the Catholic Church recently wanted to erect a cross monument in honor of those who suffered and died at Auswitchz...the Jewish community protested the move strongly for two reasons. Firstly because the Catholic church, by in large, failed to defend the Jews during the Nazi era...and secondly, that by erecting a memorial cross in view of the concentration camp, the church was "stealing" the holocaust from the Jews...Branding it with Christianity.

After reading the book I can't say I fully understood the complex feelings shared by many Jewish people...but I still believe that these issues, however profound they are, should not break the bonds of Christian brotherhood between Jews and Gentiles in the Church.

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2006/2/10 9:39Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi Compton,

Quote:
The reason, as I understand from reading this one book...is that after centuries of "church" oppression, there are some Jews who resent what seems like a recent fashionable Christian infatuation for all things Jewish.



This is true in my experience. I introduced myself to my former instructor with a phone call about the wilderness tabernacle. I asked if it were true that the three gates into the tabernacle were really called, "The Way, The Truth, and The Life." I suppose it invoked a stern feeling, to which, he replied, "Typical Christian question." Excuse me, I replied. "I field these phone calls all day where Christians are wanting to know something about the Jews to incorporate into Christianity." He says. (para) I suppose we are often after the novelty of things and that novelty rubs the Jews the wrong way.

Quote:
After reading the book I can't say I fully understood the [u]complex feelings[/u] shared by many Jewish people...but I still believe that these issues, however profound they are, should not break the bonds of Christian brotherhood between Jews and Gentiles in the Church.



Yes, the feelings are quite complex for sure. Many have been raised to believe certain things from a child and breaking through that really takes God. This, I think, is why Art katz believes that when the Church becomes glorious in the way God ultimately intends in the earth, that seeing the Church in that 'state' will provoke the Jews to jealousy and come to Christ. Personally I believe that only the Holy Spirit can draw a person to Christ- either Jew or Greek or bond or free. There are many who are deceived and it will take the same Holy Spirit to light them all. I'm not totally discounting what Art says, but unless what he is saying (and I have not studied him enough to know for sure) is that the Church must operate in the power and leading of the Holy Spirit as it did in the 1st century- I see no other way his model could work.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2006/2/10 10:01Profile





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