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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Arthur Custance: "The Difference Between 'Sin' and 'sins' ".

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philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: how old is death in our world?

Just an observation about 'death' and its place in our world... It is frequently stated that all death entered our world through Adam. But that has some interesting implications. eg how would Adam know what death was if he had not observed it? The immediate answer might be 'by revelation' and I am not discounting that. However, there is a curious implication built in to the earlier part of Genesis...“And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And the evening and the morning were the third day.” (Gen 1:11-13 KJVS) As might be expected these are the first references to reproduction and to 'seed'. The process of reproduction through seed bearing plants is referred to by the Lord in “Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.” (John 12:24 KJVS) Christ describes this process as 'dying'. What are the impliations of this? Was death with 'built-in' resurrection pre-Edenic in the plant world? Has the process of 'death to resurrection' changed in the plant world since Adam's disobedeince brought 'the sin and the death' into the world?

Any thoughts?


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Ron Bailey

 2006/2/10 5:09Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Christ describes this process as 'dying'. What are the impliations of this? Was death with 'built-in' resurrection pre-Edenic in the plant world? Has the process of 'death to resurrection' changed in the plant world since Adam's disobedeince brought 'the sin and the death' into the world?



It is certain that 'death' in terms of annhilation existed before the fall because all living things are made up of individual cells that have to be replenished because they 'die'. Death in this definition implies a [u]permanent ending[/u]. Simply rubbing your hand against a rough surface will 'kill' cells. I also think that Adam's job in the garden (if gardening then is anything like today) would have certainly required pulling some unwanted plants that may have sprung up in the wrong areas.

When I think of death in human beings I am thinking of 'seperation'. The soul seperates from the body and this is 'death'. But I can't help but thinking also of an 'end'. At death, [i]something[/i] ends.


Quote:
Has the process of 'death to resurrection' changed in the plant world since Adam's disobedeince brought 'the sin and the death' into the world?



The immediate answer to this is NO. Seeds are an interesting creation though; they are born to die. I can't imagine how a plant could come into existence [i]without[/i] the death of its parent seed - either before or after the fall.

The seed bearing structures of plants are its 'fruit'. I can't help but think of this in terms of ministry and the utter importance of the fruit of the Spirit in our lives. The fruit carries the 'seeds'. The sweetness or nourishment of the fruit gives an invitation of its own. Animals then become the dispersal agents of the seeds by eating the fruit and processing it in the body- then depositing them during their travels. For me it is a mystery, but:

But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the [i]firstfruits[/i] of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. [u]The last enemy that shall be destroyed is [i]death[/i].[/u] (I Corinthians 15).

Interesting it is that through death He destroyed him that had power over death, that is, the Devil. And in the end, death itself shall be destroyed. This leads me to think that perhaps defining death is more like defining 'cold'. Cold is the absence of heat or 'kenetic energy'. Could it be that 'death' is the absence of either physical or spiritual life? This would mean that an infusion of 'life' would dispel death as light dispells darkness. Reminds me of something that someone else said in one of these related threads. Sinners are alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them because of the blindness of their hearts. Christ came that we might have 'life' and have it more abundantly. The source of all life has to be God. This helps me understand how all of the pieces of understanding of the word 'death' come together. Seperation from the life of the flesh that is in the blood= annhilation of the body. I dare not to venture beyond that...


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Robert Wurtz II

 2006/2/10 8:32Profile
philologos
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 Re:

Robert W's

Quote:
Christ came that we might have 'life' and have it more abundantly.



Did you notice how people did not seem to be able to stay 'dead' when Christ was on the scene? Mary and Martha both seem to have spotted it.John 11:21 (KJVS) Then said [u]Martha[/u] unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.

John 11:32 (KJVS) Then when [u]Mary[/u] was come where Jesus was, and saw him, she fell down at his feet, saying unto him, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died. There is more that a hint that this is exactly why Christ stayed away...“Now Jesus loved Martha, and her sister, and Lazarus. When he had heard therefore that he was sick, he abode two days still in the same place where he was.” (John 11:5-6 KJVS)While I do believe that there was an actual 'Tree of Life' in the garden I also believe that it was symbolic of the presence of the 'life of God'. To be excluded from this 'life giving presence' was the consequence of Adam's sin.


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Ron Bailey

 2006/2/10 10:15Profile
RobertW
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 Re:

Quote:
To be excluded from this 'life giving presence' was the consequence of Adam's sin



Would it be going too far to say that the 'life giving presence' of God is what is changing us into His image from glory to glory? I have a whole other reason for wondering this, but what it boils down to is that at the fall the Glory departed Adam and Fig leaves were substituted. It is that same 'glory' that it appears to me that Israel wanted to protect themselves from when they put the veil over Moses' face. Because they did not want the 'glory' or feared the 'glory' the veil is still over certain of their hearts. Why? Because the word of God is a spiritual document and that means we need the 'life giving presence of God' to light our understanding. They took the Book, but not the Glory.

This all relates to the idea of Constitutional Sin. The presence of God seems to keep any Sin from 'growing' or multiplying in those who actively seek His Face. Maybe this is why Sin is sometimes understood metaphorically as 'leaven'. Funny how leaven makes its appearance once something is dead or decaying.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2006/2/10 11:38Profile
Graftedbranc
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Joined: 2005/11/8
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 Re:

Quote:
While I do believe that there was an actual 'Tree of Life' in the garden I also believe that it was symbolic of the presence of the 'life of God'. To be excluded from this 'life giving presence' was the consequence of Adam's sin.



Amen Ron.

Quote:
Christ came that we might have 'life' and have it more abundantly.



What is the Life? Does it mean as the word faith preachers of today tell us, an abundant flourishing natural life full of prosperity? No. It is His Life. The Life of God. The Eternal Life.

Out of His inner most being shall flow rivers of Living Water. But this spake He of the Spirit who was not yet because Jesus was not yet Glorified" (John 7)

Abundant Life is not our natural life. It is God's uncreated, eternal, incorruptable, Life flowing as a river of Life out of our innnermost being. This is abundant Life. Abundant Life supply to quench our thirst, to fill us with the riches of Christ as our indwelling Life.

And this is typefied by the Tree of Life in the Garden. Christ is the Tree of Life. And in Revealtion 21 the Tree of Life is again in the New Jeruselam growing on either side of the river of the Water of Life which flows from the Throne of God and of the Lamb. This Tree has it's source in the River which is the Spirit. And it flows from the Throne of God and of the Lamb.

IN Genesis we have the Tree of Life and a River and on the banks of the River are all the precious stones. And in the New Jeruslesm we have the same thing. The River, the Tree and the Precious Stones which make up the city.

Eating of the Tree of Life brings the Life of God into us and that Life flows as a river and the issue is the Gold of the Divine Nature, the Silver of Christ's redemption, and the precious stones of the Spirit's work constituting us with the riches of Christ.

"He who sows to the flesh shall from the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the spirit shall from the Spirit reap Life which is Eternal."

Graftedbranch

 2006/2/14 11:42Profile





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