SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
Discussion Forum : General Topics : Must we sin?

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 Next Page )


Rebecca, I only would like to address your "Dead men cannot sin!"

I've read about 30 Watchman Nee books back in the 80's and I still love the man ... but, in The Release of The Spirit ... you read that this "death" is not something that we'll ever really see the end of.

How could Paul write what he did in Phil 3 if that were the case ?

We strive to die,{put to death} by our second by second choices.
We "choose" second by second, to obey the Spirit of Truth inside us, or our flesh.

We will not see perfection until we See Him.
That is Scripture.

But the times that we cease to move in the Spirit, we go backward.

There is no such thing as being stationary in our growth.
Like swimming up stream ... if we quit paddling, we're going to go backward with the current.

If you claim you are already dead, then you are no longer "striving" as The Word admonishes us to.

Have you read Release of the Spirit ?

The Word of God alone is sufficient anyway, even if you haven't.

God Bless you.

 2006/2/1 23:38


Me Again,
What Wathcman Nee is saying I believe is that their cannot be a release of the spirit without brokeness.Brokeness comes by denying ourselves and picking up our cross.

Paul said that their was a struggle going on in his members.The will to do good was present but at times he found that he was not able.I believe that what he was saying is that we all have areas and that God deals with them one by one.This letter was one of his first I believe at the beginning of his ministry.

How do we deal with these areas? By denying ourselves and nailing them to the cross.This is the race.The holy spirit points to an area and he says "this must go".One area at a time until we are all made perfect and complete.Which I believe is the mark of the high calling.God in Christ Jesus and Christ Jesus in us in all it's fullness.

James 3:2 For in many things we offend all.If any man offend not in word, THE SAME IS ALSO A PERFECT MAN AND ABLE ALSO TO BRIDAL THE WHOLE BODY.

This is the mark of perfection.How do you know if your perfect? Because you do not offend with your words.Is your heart pure? You will know by what comes out of your mouth because out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.

The bible says that the tongue can be tamed but v8 says that no man can tame it so then how can it be tamed? Well you can't tame the tongue by trying harder you can only tame the tongue by dying to yourself and getting out of the way so God can do it.The bible says the tongue can NO MAN TAME.

How do you get patience? Is it by trying harder to be patient? No,its by getting rid of our impatience.We already have patience,it's the fruit of the spirit.Patience though can't come forth because the spirit of impatience is in the way so you must nail it to the cross than patience can come.

If you want love get rid of hate,if you want joy stop complaining,if you want peace stop worrying,if you want patience get rid of impatience ect...How by dying!

We have a new nature in Christ.You just have to clear all the debrie away!This is what the release of the spirit is all about.How do you release the spirit.Well evidently the flesh is blocking it so we have to nail the flesh to the cross than the spirit can be relesed.

The spirit is inside of you it just needs a way out.

I agree with you that we never stop dying this is why we have to pick up our cross daily.Only one man can be on the throne.It can't be us and Jesus so we have to get out of the way.

 2006/2/2 8:50

Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA



But what is sin? is it just adultery and other outward sins (even though even these orginate from the heart)? I want to know what people think about sins of the mind and even of WHO WE ARE! like everyday actions.. pride, selfishness, envy, backbiting.. sin!

This is how the bible defines sin:

"sin is transgression of the Law" 1John 3:4

That is the biblical deffinition of sin, violating God's Law - the Ten Commandments.

1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth [b]also[/b] the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Before the "law" written on tablets of stone, there was this; "And the LORD God [u]commanded[/u] the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the [b]knowledge of good and evil[/b], thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Gen 2:16-17

Gen 3:3 But of the fruit, of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, [u]God hath said[/u], [b]Ye shall not[/b] eat of it ....

"Do not" in the simplest of terms. This is not a mark to be missed, a target to 'shoot at'.

[i][b]that God has an absolute right to prescribe what we may and may not do[/b][/i] ~ Gill

The devils lie and the first exposing of his cleverness, that he twists and mingles truth with error and deception;

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
Gen 3:4-5

The truth part is in [i]knowing good and evil[/i].
The very thing God would have man to not know;

And the eyes of them both were opened, and [b]they knew[/b] that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. Gen 3:7

Self realization. The very beginning of death.
[i]The soul that sinneth, it shall die.[/i]
Eze 18:20

Self awareness.
Self dependence.


It was and is still a command to be obeyed;

And it shall come to pass, if ye shall hearken diligently unto my commandments which [b]I command you[/b] this day, to love the LORD your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul... Deu 11:13

Again to reiterate;
[i]that God has an absolute right to prescribe what we may and may not do[/i]~ Gill

Attempted earlier to give a biblical definition, what the meaning of the word sin is. Strangely all kinds of extrapolations came forth. By definition it is [i]offense[/i], that is not something I poured into the word. An equation;

Do not - I will do as I please = offense.

Dis- [i]obedience[/i]
However you want to couch it, still fail to see where the ideal is a bullseye on a target to shoot at and where Greg's earlier question, better, statement;

WHO WE ARE! like everyday actions.. pride, selfishness, envy, backbiting.. sin!

gets more to the core of the matter. If I am recalling correctly, I believe Philologo's put it that the worse thing we can do is to say "no" to God.

Surely the above mention of transgressing the law is absolutely correct but the [b]also[/b] is where the attempt to go backwards, prior to.

And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. [u]But[/u] the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. Gal 3:18-25

It was mentioned elsewhere but a great example was the messages from Frank Drown and his wife from "The mission to the Headhunters" where he proved the point of the matter with the indigenous people who had no bible, no 'understanding' in the sense that we do of giving commentary and definitions and so forth.

They knew right and wrong instinctively as all do and therefore ...

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; [b]so that they are without excuse:[/b] Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but [b]became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.[/b] Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of [b]their own hearts[/b], to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: [b]Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator,[/b] who is blessed for ever. Amen. Rom 1:20-25

They knew who God is even without our particular ways of wording things. He does a far greater job of proving this out than I can here.

Master, [b]which[/b] is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two [b]commandments hang all the law and the prophets.[/b]
Mat 22:36-40

Sin, it's a heart issue.

Mike Balog

 2006/2/2 9:05Profile

Joined: 2006/1/20
Posts: 42


The question is not what is sin. The question is must we sin? let us agree for times sake that sin is every nuance of wrong be it in thought, action or in-action. The point is that if God had said it were a sin to breathe, then we should all suffocate trying to do his will or be condemed with every breath.

What is sin? no The question is What is Christ!
What are the limits that we place on his empowering spirit.The Bible says "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death" (NOT SIN)sin was defeated long ago on the cross.


 2006/2/2 10:40Profile


The Isrealites crossed over the Red Sea and they were baptized in the cloud and in the sea but they never entered into the promised land.There are two areas that christians have to die from.One is sin and the other is self.

After a while of being a christian one can recognize sin more easily but next you have to die to self.If you are not dead to yourself than sin will try to revive.Once your nailed to the cross you can't come back down.The apostles were more mature because the entered the fullness by self denial.This is the promised land for the believer.Not many enter in because of a lack of faith.They don't believe that greater is He that is in me than he that is in the world.

Yes, I believe we do not have to sin.The absence of self is the absence of sin thats why its important to stay on the cross.

By Watchman Nee

For the christian death to self is the door to life.It is the only way to fruitfulness.Hence, death is absolutely necessary.But how many of us are really dead? Death to self is the cessation of all self's activity!

Christ is not only the savior who saves us from our sins but He is the savior who saves us from ourselves.To die to the self life is the only pathway to spiritual life.The turning point in experiencing God's full salvation lies in being delivered from self.And only God can cause us to die from self; noone else is able to do so.

If you have not experienced the death of self your spiritual life will have little real progress.

Though, as christians ,we have the fact of our inheritance,this does not necessarily mean that we have come into the experience of enjoying our inheritance.Hence, fact and experience are vastly different from one another.

In order to possess and enjoy an inheritance, the inheritor must take two steps: first, he must believe that there is such an inheritance; second, he must singularly arise to take possession of this inheritance.

 2006/2/2 11:25


May I do a bit of English analysis on the question 'Must we sin?'.

The word 'must' is an imperative. Jesus said 'you must be born again'. Jesus doesn't use the word 'must' very often, but, there is no escaping its meaning when He does.

Using 'must' at the beginning of the question, rather than say 'need' (Need we sin?'), may give the impression that to stop sinning is only within our reach in conjunction with a huge amount of effort. I don't think this is how our freedom from sin works. I believe it works at a spiritual level, where our inner man is kept clean by the blood of Jesus Christ.

Under the Old Covenant (There must be a good thread explaining this thoroughly, somewhere on SI.....?) every year on the Day of Atonement, there was a ceremony to lay all the abstract sins - thoughts, wishes, intentions, omissions (etc) on the head of a goat, who was sent out into the wilderness [i]bearing away[/i] those sins. (This is only part of the sacrificing which was made on the Day of At-one-ment every year.)

Now, according to Hebrews 10 (NKJV)
17 [then He adds,] "Their sins and their lawless deeds [b]I [u]will remember[/u] [u]no more[/u][/b]."
18 Now where [u]there [b]is remission[/b] of these[/u], [there is] [b]no longer an offering for sin.[/b]
19 [b]Therefore[/b], brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20 by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh,
21 and [having] a High Priest over the house of God,
22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, [b]having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience[/b] and our bodies washed with pure water.

'having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience'

Earlier in Hebrews, there is reference to 'an evil heart of unbelief' (3:12) and it is clear that FAITH in the blood of Jesus to cleanse our sin, is what moves us from striving to keep ourselves without His help, to the 'rest of faith' in which we stop striving to keep ourselves, and begin to believe that HE is keeping us, and His blood continues to cleanse us.

This is not to say we never feel guilty or know we [i]have sinned[/i], but [i]that[/i] is not our [u]continuous condition[/u] before God.

Hebrews 12
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,
23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn [who are] registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 [u]to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant[/u], [b]and to [u]the blood of sprinkling[/u] that speaks [i]better things[/i] than [that of] Abel[/b].

 2006/2/2 11:46

 Re: Must we sin?

Just to finish the thought.....

This is why I referred to 1 John 1:7 in a previous post. This is the key to living free from a continuous sense of failure.

'Must we sin?' is not about not sinning, it's about [b][i]walking in the light[/i][/b], [u]where[/u] the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.

John ends his first letter with that same key, [i][b]faith[/b][/i] which begins the Hebrew letter.

1 John 5
5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
6 This is He who came by water and blood -- Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.
9 If we receive the witness of men, [b]the witness of God is greater[/b]; [u]for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son[/u].
10 [b]He who [u]believes[/u] in the Son of God has the witness in himself[/b]; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son.
11 And [u]this is the testimony[/u]: that [b]God has [u]given[/u] us eternal life, and this life is [u]in[/u] His Son[/b].
12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
13 These things I have written to [b]you who [u]believe[/u] in the [u]name[/u] of the Son of God[/b], that you may [u]know[/u] that you have eternal life, [b]and that you may [[u]continue to] believe in the name of the Son of God[/u][/b].

This is why Hebrews 10:14 is such a key verse to accept right into the middle and depth of our beings... or as Jesus used to say 'let this sink down into your ears'.

11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, [in the temple at Jerusalem] which can never take away sins.
12 [b]But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever[/b], [u]sat down at the right hand of God[/u],
13 [u]from that time waiting[/u] till His enemies are made His footstool.
14 [b]For by [u]one offering[/u] He has [u]perfected forever[/u] those who [u]are being sanctified[/u][/b].

That's [u]us[/u], beloved, if you believe the word.

 2006/2/2 11:55


It boils down to this:

Its like standing on the rivers bank and looking into the land that God gave you, YOUR INHERITANCE and God says to you; "See those big fat juicy grapes over there? There all yours! Now go get'em!"

Sometimes I think what if I were there and we were all standing there looking into the promised land,I would hope that I would be one of those that said; "Giants? Who cares!!! That's mine and I'm goin in!!!"

I don't just want to survive.I want to thrive!!!

 2006/2/2 11:59


It appears we've all "missed the mark" and need to repent ...

"It's turned into this".

:-P Preach.

And some of us silly kids thought that this thread was interesting and going along nicely.

"It's turned into this."

Now can ya beat that ? :-?


 2006/2/2 13:36


I don't feel like I need to define what sin is.Im quite comfortable in this thread!:-)But if the water gets too hot please feel free to do so.Im just going to stay here and soak my feet!

 2006/2/2 13:50

Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Affiliate Disclosure | Privacy Policy