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Romans 9 and 10 were written to the Jews, to understand how God was using the Gentiles for Salvation of both Jew and Greek.

They are not Predestination chapters... if read in context and slowly.

[u]God Bless ![/u]

 2006/1/30 17:08

Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia



prayerbone wrote:
that worries me more lol..thats like everything is stacked and if were lucky were picked if not tough.. that makes me think God why did u even bother to create all this.. wouldnt the ones not chosen be better off if u hadnt even bothered?

These are questions that need to be asked until you [b]receive[/b] and answer, and never allow yourself to [b]create[/b] one in the interim (no matter how tempting it might be).

However, only ask this question if you want to know the answer, and not in order that God should justify Himself. And if you really want to know the answer, then brace yourself for it, as it usually only comes through dark circumstances.

May I recommed Art Katz' [url=""]Beyond Categories[/url] or simply study Psalm 73, which this sermon is an exposition of. May I also recomend many doses of Oswald Chambers, as this man had a unique gift in expounding the difficult and making it digestablem without compromising it (considering that his teaching stood the test of being preached though the first World War converting soldiers in the face of harsh brutality, how simpler are our issues).

Aaron Ireland

 2006/1/30 17:10Profile

Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia



JaySaved wrote:
I can tell that God is really trying to show you something important, be strong in your faith. Humble yourself before God and he will lift you up.

Amen to that:-)

Aaron Ireland

 2006/1/30 17:13Profile



Don't put God in a box by applying Aristotelian logic to Him. Let how God works be a mystery, because mortal minds can not comprehend something that operates from outside of the time-space continuum. God can work in the past as well as the future and we would know nothing of it. This doesn't take away our free will.


 2006/1/30 17:21

Joined: 2006/1/30
Posts: 23


Hi prayerbone... I'm going to say some stuff that will probably get me in a WHOLE lot of trouble, but I came across this question a while back and had many many problems with it. (Mine were a little different than yours like, "If God knows a baby is to be aborted, does it have a soul?" and "If God knew at the beginning that person A and person C were not going to choose him, it seems a little cruel to make them with a soul and then carry out his punishment." Not that God is not justified to do so, obviously! We are his creation and, as was said before, He and only He has the right to do whatever He wants with us! That much is true. But please, pray hard, and at least hear me out before you discard this message. It helped me a great deal.

First: Genesis 6:6-7 (King James Version)
And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

I believe that the church is in error on many subjects. (It seems it always has been!) But I believe that this is huge. The church teaches that God is everywhere, all powerful, and knows everything.

Please go and read all of Psalm 139, but for time and space sake, I will only include a portion:

Psalm 139
1 O lord, thou hast searched me, and known me.
Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off. Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways. For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether. Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me. Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it. Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.

From what I have learned, this passage is the most commonly referred to for this topic.

I challenge you to this: Search the scriptures! Grab a concordance, get on or, and search! See if you can find ANYWHERE that claims God knows the future. (Why would God repent making man if He knew for certain they would fall from Him? Sounds kinda schitzophrenic to me...The fact is, God knew that He had given man, and angels, a choice. A free will. People will ask Christians, "So, why did God put the tree in the garden?" And most will respond, without much hesitation, "what good is free will, without another choice?"

You will bring up prophecy... ok.

(Forgive me for I don't know the reference, but you might...) Before Jesus is handed over to be crucified he tells his disciples the whole point of prophecy! (As does God many times in the O.T.) He says: "And I tell you this before hand so that when it happens, YOU MIGHT BELIEVE."

God does not sit in front of some magic crystal ball and He concentrates real hard and then tells us what he sees. Scripture says that He has determined the end from the beginning. See Isaiah 46 (especially 9-11)... God is powerful. Just like with Pharoah. God did not strip Pharoahs gift of free will to establish His purpose! God put pressure on Him to bend his decision! Gods divine purpose was for the people of Israel to be set free... but God is not willing to strip someones free will away from them. But, what God sets out to do, NO ONE can stand in the way of! He will part seas, send plagues, whatever He needs to to get His will done! (Without removing free will!)

God also says: Jeremiah 17:9-10
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

Even mans heart He must search and try the reins to understand us! The Bible says that God tests us to know our ways! That doesn't sound like a fortune teller God who knows exactly the way I will respond in the next few seconds. For instance: I have every power and choice right now to get up from my desk and walk over to the person next to me and smack them straight in the face. I do. God wouldn't stop me from doing it, although he would grieve my decision!!! But, God does know the heart! He knows the heart, He knows the past, He knows everything that is happening! Not just what we know in our limited view. So, knowing my past, and the character He is building in me, He would presume that I would not get up and smack the guy next to me. Think about Abraham and Isaac! Just as Abraham is about to sacrifice his son, God says something like, "NOW I know that you love me above all else." He tested his heart to see if it matched his words!

I am by no means trying to limit God! God knows EVERYTHING THERE IS TO KNOW!!!! And more! He can also, more accurately than anyone, predict our moves! He also is working for his divine purpose. He knows the end from the beginning, not because some magical date popped up in His mind, but because HE WILL BRING IT TO PASS!!! He is beautiful, and just. He experiences things with us in the moment. That is why God grieves, and rejoices.

Hopefully this all makes sense, and I pray that you will at least look into this and above all else, PRAY before dismissing it. This has helped me in so many ways!

Lastly, Christians unfortunately have a tendancy to give "pat answers". These things put a block in our minds when we study, when we pray and they are meant to be dealt with. People will point you back to the direction of God and remind you of passages that challenge us all saying, "who are we to question God". Those things are amazing! And they are in there for a reason! But Christianity is not an ignorant faith. It has answers! (Ironically, in my study I have never found a scripture that says or even alludes to saying: You will never understand God, don't try! We don't have the mind of God, because we are not God. So in a sense this is true! But at the same time, God gave us the Bible to reveal himself to us! His wills, His loves, His hates. All so that we can understand! We are not followers of a blind faith! Thank you Jesus! We are not intended to just shut up and believe blindly.

I hope this helps! It did for me!

Your sister

 2006/1/30 18:23Profile


hi meagain is ur post for jay or me..if me i'm not sure why i have never said i was a calvinist or wanted to be one.. i said i was of two minds about it true,but by that i ment is that the only answer to the riddle..but if its i think i would discount christianity as a fairytale! i couldnt believe in such a cruel situation..anyways guys it seem's its a riddle thats beyond us, but thks for the replies..andy

 2006/1/30 18:32

Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924


bro prayerbone
we had a discussion on predestination and free will some time back which the Lord led me to start to help me reconcile the 2. they seem diametrically opposed but i learned a few things.

1) our perception of free will has been distorted by our culture, in the U.K. and America there is a lot said about freedom and the idea is that one can do whatever one wants.

2) we have free will but we can't do anything outside of what the Lord allows, our will doesn't superscede His.

3) the mechanics of reconciling free will and predestination are unwieldy, i know myself to be a vessel of mercy so i'm going to set about working in that capacity.

we looked a Romans 9 which spoke of predestination and the election of God. there are references made to Jacob and Esau, and how God hated Esau [i]before[/i] he was born and loved Jacob before they were born so that the election of God may stand. some people think God hated Esau because esau sold his inheritence for food but that's not true, God hated him before he was even born.

here is the link to the discussion

anyway bro Jaysaved found this quote by C.S. Spurgeon which summed it up for me.

Found the following on this website:

Spurgeon on predestination and free will

The system of truth is not one straight line, but two. No man will ever get a right view of the gospel until he knows how to look at the two lines at once.

I am taught in one book to believe that what I sow I shall reap: I am taught in another place, that "it is not of him that willeth nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy."

I see in one place, God presiding over all in providence; and yet I see, and I cannot help seeing, that man acts as he pleases, and that God has left his actions to his own will, in a great measure.

Now, if I were to declare that man was so free to act, that there was no presidence of God over his actions, I should be driven very near to Atheism; and if, on the other hand, I declare that God so overrules all things, as that man is not free enough to be responsible, I am driven at once into Antinomianism or fatalism.

That God predestines, and that man is responsible, are two things that few can see. They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory; but they are not. It is just the fault of our weak judgment. Two truths cannot be contradictory to each other.

If, then, I find taught in one place that everything is fore-ordained, that is true; and if I find in another place that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is my folly that leads me to imagine that two truths can ever contradict each other.

These two truths, I do not believe, can ever be welded into one upon any human anvil, but one they shall be in eternity: they are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the mind that shall pursue them farthest, will never discover that they converge; but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring.

the last paragraph summed it up for me so i stopped trying to fiured it all out but it'll make sense in heaven!

Farai Bamu

 2006/1/30 19:03Profile


hi guys wowee head spining lol ok few replies for soem people that posted

PreachParsly said To be honest I think it's foolish to charge God with being "unfair" (((i agree parsly i just cant help it)))

MeAgain said
"You choose the belief system that fits your own 'desires'. Bottomline" (((this aplies for everyone i guess)))

bubbaguy said
Don't put God in a box by applying Aristotelian logic to Him. Let how God works be a mystery" (((but it say we should know in the bible right?)))

IRONMAN these two truths, I do not believe, can ever be welded into one upon any human anvil, but one they shall be in eternity: they are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the mind that shall pursue them farthest, will never discover that they converge; but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring.
(((this amazing quote i really like it))))

ryanelijah what u said makes sence to me not sure i its scriptual but it does make sence lol

left my least fav for last rofl

However, only ask this question if you want to know the answer, and not in order that God should justify Himself

thats meeeee iam so angry,iam stood lookin at the sky shaking my fist at God..will listen to sermon thks for link

 2006/1/30 19:36

Joined: 2006/1/20
Posts: 42

 Re: a struggling problem about God

Here is the true answer to your delima. There is no fault in God period. There is no evil and no injustice in him. It does not need to be explained it must be excepted. To assert ones own sense of righteousness above Gods is a fundemental error.

please resolve yourself to the full belife that if there be any fault, any shortcoming, any wrong, that it is in you! not God.

1 Corinthians 13:12
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.


 2006/1/30 21:06Profile


Hi Andy,
I'm glad to see you laugh a little in between all'a this stuff.

Seems you need a good laugh. And I betcha you didn't count on getting THIS many answers, huh ? :-? :-D

You posted ...
MeAgain said
"You choose the belief system that fits your own 'desires'. Bottomline" (((this aplies for everyone i guess)))

Andy, YUP ! According to the Greek definition of Heresy/Heresies, Yup .... it's allll choice.

I pray you'll be O.K. and don't forget I said He Loves you.

Us too.

 2006/1/30 21:36

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