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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Original Sin? Adam or Me?

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Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619

 Re: What is natural goodness?

There are many people in churches who are full of natural goodness. They are involved in everything. They have a natural capacity for orginization. They do all the right things. The are always at weddings and funerals, they write the appropriate cards and letters. They give the right gifts. They council with others. They are the cream of the crop. But is this Christ? No. It is just their own natural disposition.

And churches encourage this sort of thing. They heap praises on those who do so much and are always doing the appropriate thing.

But this has nothing to do with Christ, the Spirit or the Christian Life. It is just natural goodness.

But let them go unnoticed. Let them be slighted. Let them be overlooked when the praises are being handed out and you will see what they are made of. When Self is slighted they are deeply offended. When they are overlooked they are hurt. When their natural talents are not appreciated they feel unresolved and are downcast.

But they may not show it. They may "take the humble position". Or they may have a natural humility and defer all praise saying" no, I am not so wonderful". But this too is natural. It is not Christ. It is not the Spirit. It is just natural disposition.

And unfortunatly most of Christianity is built up with people's natural goodness. Natural gifts, Natural talents, natural schemes for evangelism, for church growth, for everything. There is no cross and little of Christ.

This is honey. This is unacceptable fire on God's altar. It is wood, hay and stubble. Not the Gold of the divine nature, the Silver of Christ's redemption and the precious stones of the Spirit's work within them.

Not the Oil of the Spirit of God, the fine flour of Christ, the Salt of the cross and the fragrence of frankincense which is resurrection Life.


 2006/1/28 19:05Profile

Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


And unfortunatly most of Christianity is built up with people's natural goodness. Natural gifts, Natural talents, natural schemes for evangelism, for church growth, for everything. There is no cross and little of Christ.

Somehow it has to be evident that this is all built on a faulty foundation. Before that becomes evident, I see no way of "evangelizing" the deluded - ie, rescuing them - whether they be atheists or hypocrites.


 2006/1/28 19:37Profile

Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


Somehow it has to be evident that this is all built on a faulty foundation.

Actually, the problem is it is built on the right foundation, which is Christ.

Paul in 1 Corinthians when speaking of God's building and the judgement seat of Christ speaks of the One foundation which is laid and our need to be careful how we build on it. With wood, hay and stubble or with Gold, Silver and precious stones.

Most churches are built on the right foundation which is Christ. But few build with Gold, Silver and precious stones.


 2006/1/28 19:53Profile



God created the human race so He could share His life and love with them, so that He could have a relationship with them, and love and bless them. We were created for union with God and He made us in His image and in His likeness, uniquely fitted to interact with Him in love. This is the meaning of our existence, to live by the life of God enjoying the privilege of being His children. We are unique in our creation; we were created with the ability to commune with God in our in a body of flesh made from the dust of the earth. We were created to live in and respond to God in love.

God created human beings with a free will because He desired to share His love with free beings that could partake of His life and join Him in His unspeakable joy. He did not create us out of a some need within Himself for company. He is the infinitely fulfilled One. He created us because wanted to share His love with us. He loves you because He loved you into existence.

God created every one of us as moral beings, with a free will, the ability to choose Him or reject Him. Love must exist by choice alone. Love cannot be forced or legislated. Robots can not love! God created mankind, with no necessity within Himself and no pressure from without to bring about another creature with free will. He freely chose to create us with free will. Al of us have the God given ability to say yes or no to Him.

Man was not designed to live independent of God. God's intent was to rule in the heart of man, for man's good, and for His own enjoyment. Man needs God, and was to live in (and enjoy!) total submission to Him. God is no 'tyrant', His demand for our submission is for our good.

In order for mankind to make the deliberate choice to believe God, to love Him and walk in His love, He made a tree called, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and He placed it into the Garden. Remember, without the choice of at least two things, love, obedience, holiness and sin cannot exist.

"And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." (Genesis 2:16,17)

The response of the Adam and Eve to the tree would either be one of obedience, which would develop into trust and love toward God. Or they would make the choice of disobedience; unbelief that rejected God and His love and the result of such a declaration of independence from God would be death. Adam and Eve lived in fellowship with God until they chose to rebel by eating the forbidden fruit. God had designed them so they would rely and trust Him for all wisdom and knowledge.

Adam and Eve had everything they could possibly need. God provided them with everything as a free gift. Since they were created, every breath they took they were reminded that they were not God but dependent on Him. The meaning of their life was to be submitted to their Creator. It was at that point that the devil came to tempt them. He tempted Eve with the lie that she could like God. The heart of sin is the desire to be king and ruler of ones own life. To be independent of God and to dethrone Him and take His place. Sin in its ultimate desire wills to remove God, kill him if it could and crown oneself in God's place.

Satan began tempting Eve by portraying God as a liar that could not to be trusted. He inferred that God did not really love her because He did not have her best interests in mind. Satan made it look like God was withholding something good from her. He then told Eve that in eating from the tree she could declare her independence from God and she could like God. He assured her that God had lied; eating from the tree would not bring death but was instead the doorway to her total self-directed freedom.

"Then the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die. For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil. Eve saw that the fruit was good for food, pleasing to the eye and desirable for gaining wisdom, so she took it and ate it. She gave some to Adam and then he also ate it" (Genesis 3:4,6)

Instead of trusting and having her confidence in God, Eve believed the serpent and made the choice to disobey and declare her independence from God. In this act of defiance towards God, she severed herself from God, who was the only source of her life and the meaning of her existence. This was not just a slip or fall but an act of total rebellion! Both Adam and Eve rebelled in an act of disobedience that declared independence from Him. By rebelling they disconnected themselves from God who was the only true source of life and plunged themselves into death.

They were created to say yes to God and choose to trust His love. Instead they have said no to God and yes to the lie of Satan and in so doing become the enemies of God. They have denied the meaning of their existence as creatures and rejected their God given glory of submission and obedience to the Creator. They have said no to the covenant union with Him, for whom they were created, exchanging it for the dead end street of independence that results in death.

When God said "In the day you eat of it you shall surely die" this was not just a punishment, but the announcement of a fact. You are dependent upon God for your life, you are created to live in His love and if you walk away from Him, a law will be triggered that cannot be reversed - you will certainly and unquestionably die.

Adam and Eve died in the moment they ate of the tree. God is Life and the source and upholder of all life, no life exists outside of Him, and nothing is independent of Him. When Adam and Eve ate this fruit they turned away from God's rulership. The life-sustaining relationship with God was broken. They cut themselves off from God and His wisdom, blessings, life, power, love and light. They decided to live for self, and for the purpose of self-gratification, rather than for fellowship with, and in obedience to, God. They kicked God out of His rightful place on the throne of the heart and replaced Him with self.

All of us have sinned in same way. Each of us have turned away from God and to our self. We have placed ourselves above God and our fellow man. In doing so, we become the voluntary but real slave of lust, appetite and desires. We freely choose it and that is why we are totally responsible for it and why God can justly send us to hell.

 2006/1/28 20:11

Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


We freely choose it and that is why we are totally responsible for it and why God can justly send us to hell.

What did Jesus mean when he said he came to set the captive free? Free from what? Was it the bondage of the will?

What does Isaiah 6:9 mean, "... make their ears dull and close their eyes..." Does it not mean that they cannot understand the way, or find the way.... because it takes divine revelation.

There is one big difference between Adam and us: Adam was not born in sin, separated from God like we are. Prior to regeneration, we have NEVER known fellowship with God. We never knew the light. Well- at least, I didn't. So, how can I volitionally turn away from something I don't even know exists.
If the definition of sin is, to miss the mark, why should it be necessary to define sin according to a volitional, conscious choice. I can certainly be missing the mark without making any choices at all.

I once heard a pastor say, "To fail to choose at all is really making a choice to reject God." In other words, though we might not make a choice to reject him, simply by failing to choose him, we have rejected him .


 2006/1/28 22:38Profile

Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


Amen Sister,


 2006/1/28 22:57Profile

 Sin is a wrong moral choice.

There is no proof in the Bible that sin is anything else than a wrong moral choice. The meaning of the original Greek and Hebrew words used in the Scriptures to describe sin are:

1. To act perversely, to twist and distort.
2. To be stubbornly disobedient.
3. To refuse to serve God.
4. To act treacherously and disobey.
5. To be rebellious and refuse to do right.
6. To be lawless and to refuse to reform.
7. To be obstinate or noncompliant.
8. To deviate from the right.
9. To be ungodly and to be unjust.

The following passages show that all sin is disobedience and that this disobedience is a free choice.

Romans 6:16 "Know ye not, that to whom you yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants you are to whom you obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness."

James 5:17 "Therefore to him that knows to do good, and does it not, to him it is sin."

Romans 14:21 "Whatsoever is not of faith is sin."

Isaiah 65:2 "I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walks in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts."

Isaiah 1:19-20 "If you be willing and obedient, you shall eat the good of the land: But if you refuse and rebel, you shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the Lord has spoken."

Psalms 81:11 "But my people would not hearken to my voice; and Israel would have none of me."

Isaiah 42:24b "For they would not walk in His ways, neither were they obedient unto His law."

Ezekiel 20:21a "They rebelled against me: they walked not in my statutes, neither kept my judgements to do them, which if a man do, he shall even live in them."

Matt. 23:24b "How often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, and you would not!"

These verses point out the sinner's rebellion and refusal to obey God. The sinner's real problem is pure rebellion. He can obey God but instead he defiantly and boldly refuses to even listen to God.

 2006/1/29 5:43

 What is sin?

What is sin?

Sin is the result of a free moral choice to rebel and disobey God. In both of the above cases, Adam and Lucifer freely chose to knowingly rebel and totally disobey God. Instead of letting God rule and reign, they chose to take control of their own lives. Sin is the throwing God out of His rightful place and then taking His place in one's life. Sin is more than just a simple act of defiance. It is a preferred state of the heart. The sinners' only real aim and purpose in life is to bring himself pleasure that totally disregards his own intelligence and God's right to rule.

Sin also is the wrong use of the abilities and resources that God created us with. God did not make any mistake in the creation of Lucifer or Adam. Both of these took what they had been created with and used it in the wrong way and for the wrong reason.

 2006/1/29 5:50

 Miss the mark?

the Bible teaches that sin is a wrong moral choice.

Have you even been exposed to this teaching about sin? The Preacher draws a bull's-eye target and then draws arrows all around it. Most of these arrows fall way short of the target completely. He may draw one or two hitting the target but missing the bull's-eye. He then explains that sin is missing the mark and falling short of God's glory. He then says that no matter how hard we try we will always miss the mark.

This is a total distortion of God's truth! The sinner misses the mark because he is purposely aiming in the opposite direction of the true target!! It is not that he tries to hit the bulls-eye and misses but it is that he knowingly and rebelliously shoots his arrows in the total opposite direction of the true target.

True sin is the aim and intent of the heart to totally disregard God and His love. It is the aim and the intent of the heart that determines if a person is holy or not. The sinner can always come to Christ for salvation.

It is not a criminal act to aim at a target and miss. People do not go to hell for simply missing. A sinner goes to hell because he is a criminal. The reason why the sinner is a criminal is because he has the ability to aim at the right target but he purposely aims in the opposite direction. He deliberately and defiantly has aimed his heart in total opposition to God. He is so stubborn and rebellious that even though he can turn around (repent) and aim in the right direction, he never will without the grace of God. This stubborn refusal is what sends the sinner to hell.

Every sinner has committed two evils. These are, forsaking God and building a system that tries to quench their spiritual thirst and desire. The sinner has not only refused God's right to rule over him but he has replaced the only true God with a false god.

Jer. 2:13 "For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water."

1 John 3:4 "Sin is lawlessness" i.e., breaking the law, a WILLFUL act.

Sin is a CHOICE to disregard God and go ones own way.

Isa. 53:6a "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way."

God would never command or require repentance if man was truly unable to obey.

Acts 17:30 "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commands all men every where to repent."

The sinner's REAL problem is his REFUSAL to come to God when He attempts to draw him near.

Matthew 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that kills the prophets, and stones them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, and you would not!"

Every person has received light from Jesus Christ and no one has ANY EXCUSE for rejecting God.

John 1:9 "That was the true Light, which gives light to every man that comes into the world."

Romans 1:20 "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"

The Word of God does not describe sin as a simple miss or weakness but as rebellion. When you look at the entire Bible you will see a history of many stubborn, rebellious, defiant, prideful, arrogant and disobedient people. None of these people where born this way. They had the ability to follow God and do things pleasing in His sight, but they freely chose to spit in God's face.

 2006/1/29 5:53

 Re: Miss the mark?

I haven't read the whole thread, but, I have BIG problem with bringing morals into any definition of sin - because, the only morality we know is based entirely on God's definition of Himself - there is no other definition. And, to KNOW HIM is LIFE and HEALTH..... We can prove that by tasting it, but it is harder to prove that not to know Him is death and destruction.

I like this verse, which I didn't see listed in the last few posts, because it takes the ground away from everyone's feet, no matter how they stick to the morality of the culture in which they were raised - even a 'christian' culture - and most especiailly if they deny God Himself.

John 16:9
Of sin, because they believe not on me;

 2006/1/29 12:33

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