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Discussion Forum : General Topics : What is a pastor, and what do they do?

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RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Wonderful thoughts, shall we procede?



Yes, verily! :-)


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Robert Wurtz II

 2006/2/1 12:25Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

I had to wait in the car to collect someone earlier today and was looking at 'elders' on my PocketPC. I discovered some interesting data. I would encourage others to do this kind of thing, not to prove a point but simply to check and check. I was searching through the scriptures of the phrase "elders of". I wanted to see how many kinds of elders there are in the scriptures. I was really quite amazed. In addition to the Egyptian elders we have:

[b]elders of Israel:[/b] Ex. 3:16,18; 12:21; 17:5-6; 18:12; 19:7; 24:1,9; Lev. 9:1; Num. 11:16,24,30; 16:25; Deut. 27:1; 31:9; Josh. 7:6; 8:10; 24:1; 1Sam. 4:3; 8:4; 2Sam. 3:17; 5:3; 17:4,15; 1Kings 8:1,3; 1Chr. 11:3; 15:25; 21:16; 2Chr. 5:2,4; Ezek. 14:1; 20:1,3; Matt. 21:23; 26:3,47; 27:1; Luke 22:66; Acts 4:8

but I was surprised to find
[b]elders of the priests:[/b] 2Kings 19:2; Is. 37:2

although not so surprised to find
[b]elders of cities:[/b] Deut. 19:12; 21:3-4,6,19-20; 22:15,17-18; 25:8; Josh. 20:4; Judg. 8:16; Ruth 4:2; 1Kings 8:1; 2Chr. 5:2; Ezra 10:14

Can you see why I find this curious? How many 'levels' of elders were operating in Israel? For example if I am a priest living in Anathoth do I have 3 levels of elders?
eg national elders
priestly elders
city elders.

David had 'elders of his house': 2Sam. 12:17
The clans seem to have had 'elders' too: 2Sam. 19:11, Ezek 8:1

This has set me wondering whether or not the scriptures are using 'elders' as a generic term for 'recognised leaders' rather than as the label for an office called 'elders'. Can you see the implications this would have? We usually think of 'elders' as the "leaders", where the man who holds the label has the responsibility to 'lead'. But how does it play the other way about? ie is it really that a man who is a leader is publicly recognised as an 'elder'. Are leaders appointed or do they emerge? Is the recognition of an emerging 'leader' what causes him to be denominated as an 'elder'?

What do you think?


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Ron Bailey

 2006/2/1 14:42Profile
KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

Are leaders appointed or do they emerge? Is the recognition of an emerging 'leader' what causes him to be denominated as an 'elder'?



I personally like this idea here the most, and think it is perhaps in the spirit of the New Testament. In the last two churches I have been involved with, there have been several individuals who just had a wonderful aroma about them in the Spirit, and it didn't take too long for them to be appointed as elders within the church too long after their joining it.

In fact, knowing the history of these two men, it seems this is a natural pattern that emerges in whatever church they attend. It's just as if it naturally happens... or to better put it, supernaturally. One at my previous church has now moved on to a much larger church where he now attends, so this process might take a little longer to flesh itself out. However, it would not shock me at all if he found himself an elder at this church within a short period of time.


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Jimmy H

 2006/2/1 15:45Profile
jimp
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Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 1481


 Re:

hi all, i attend a church that had no membership or elder/deacon structure for many years. it started with the pastor and his family in their home. we got to about600 attendees and the pastor said "if you're wonderung who the elders in this church are ask yourself who you would call if you were sick; they are your elders" we have 20,000 now and more structure. jimp

 2006/2/1 16:00Profile
roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 How do you know?

Quote:
? Is the recognition of an emerging 'leader' what causes him to be denominated as an 'elder'?



This would seem to make sense. The question that goes through my mind is: WHO is able to recognize the elders as such?

I think of the play-ground setting - where the most dominant or popular tend to rise to the top and be the group "elders".
Clearly, it requies spiritual maturity to recognize a truly mature elder verses one that seems to be a good leader, but may not be mature spiritually.
In our culture where education, status, and charisma are valued we may miss the true elder.
Diane


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Diane

 2006/2/1 16:17Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

KingJimmy's

Quote:
One at my previous church has now moved on to a much larger church where he now attends, so this process might take a little longer to flesh itself out.



This raises an interesting point that 'eldership' is a relative term. A man who has the 'leadership gifting' in one group may not have the necessary 'leadership gift' for another. A man who functions well as as 'elder' in a smaller, younger, group might need time to settle into a larger one.

I shall have something to say about 'quick appointment' of elders later. ;-)


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Ron Bailey

 2006/2/1 17:13Profile









 Re: How do you know?

A funny thing happened when the book, "A Shepherd Looks at Psalm 23" first came out.

We read it first, as about the Lord Himself, of course ... but then felt led to read it again from the perspective of a Pastor/shepherd.

To see how much trouble a good earthly shepherd would/should go to, to insure his flock is safe, growing and healthy was incredible from gleaning from that one book alone.

Neat !

 2006/2/1 17:15
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: How do you know?

roadsign's

Quote:
This would seem to make sense. The question that goes through my mind is: WHO is able to recognize the elders as such?

In a smaller group, I think it would be pretty obvious if the group were a real community and not just a 'church plant'; that's not to disparage 'church plants' but I am thinking relationships rather than projects.

In a larger group, the current 'oversight' would need to recognise the quality of any who were to be joined to their number.


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Ron Bailey

 2006/2/1 17:17Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Well, I am ready for more if everyone else is. I have really been chewing and praying, and praying and chewing, this is good !!!!


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patrick heaviside

 2006/2/3 11:06Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: lead or rule - a big difference

Quote:
In another post you mentioned the miss-translation in the KJV of related words - "ruler" to justify eclesiastical control and hierarchy.


roadsign
sorry I missed this one. In a sense I don't really want to abolish the word 'rule' as to redefine it. Jesus saidMatt. 6:32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.

Matt. 20:25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. My point in quoting these two verses is to remind us that we are not supposed to be behaving like the 'Gentiles'. The last of these two quotations is very important. It says that 'Gentile power structures' are not the way the church will operate. A 'gentile power structure' is the kind we might get in the military or in a business setting. It can be set out as a schematic or organisation chart in which 'power' comes from those 'exercising dominion over' them. The NT Greek word has 'katakurieuO" which in turn derives from 'kurios' meaning 'Lord'. The 'kata' prefix means 'downwards' or thoroughly. The ordinary way we would say this would be 'lording it over them'.

This kind of 'power structure' or 'rule' is not the kind we find in the scriptures which relate to God's people, but because we spend our lives in 'gentile power structures' it is almost impossible to use the word 'rule' without contaminating the Biblical concept. egRev. 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to [u]rule[/u] all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
Rev. 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall [u]rule[/u] them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. I wonder what our general impression is in reading these passages. Would it alter if we knew that the word translated 'rule' in both these instances is the Greek word 'poimainO' which actually means to 'tend like a shepherd'. (the Greek word for 'pastor/shepherd' is "poimEn")

I have watched shepherds in Romania; they carry huge clubs and you might think 'they would rule with a rod of iron' but they never use those 'clubs' on the sheep. The shepherd-kings of Israel were to be warrior defenders of the flock who carried both 'rod and staff'; (Ps 23) A man who uses the 'club' on the sheep has not begun to understand the way the Bible uses the word 'rule'.

We can go back much further than this. Gen. 3:16 (KJVS) Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall [u]rule[/u] over thee.

Gen. 4:7 (KJVS) If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt [u]rule[/u] over him. What kind of 'rule' does this bring to mind? In the minds of most people this would create a 'gentile power structure' model with one person greater than another. But the word 'rule' has been used earlier in Genesis“And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, And [u]to rule[/u] over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.”
(Gen. 1:16-18, KJVS)Now in what way would you see the role of the Sun and the Moon towards the earth, because these are first steps to understanding the way that 'authority' operates in God's kingdoms. The Sun and the Moon 'rule' our earth by providing it with light and warmth... changes the picture of 'rule' a bit doesn't it.

There is a link between the first two verses I quoted too. The Gentiles go scratching about for their sustenance because they have no consciousness of a 'heavenly Father'. The consciousness of a 'heavenly Father' and his care changes everything. The 'gentile' has no-one looking out for him so has to resort to 'power structures' to defend him. Only those who are aware of a heavenly Father's continuing provision and protection are 'safe' outside 'gentile power structures'.

So this is part of what I was wanting to do. Not to 'abolish' the word but to be sure than when we use the word 'rule' we are not thinking about Eastern potentates, military command structures or the way the office is run. ;-)


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Ron Bailey

 2006/2/3 11:53Profile





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