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ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Hi everyone,


Notme, you said,


"Don't worry about being "harsh". The voice of truth is as sharp as a razorblade."




This seems very dangerous to me to say this here, in this way.



The Lord Jesus said,







[b][color=660000] I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him. [/color][/b]



The same sword you wield could be used to put you to death also.


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2008/4/6 21:15Profile









 Re:

Quote:

ChrisJD wrote:

Notme, you said,

"Don't worry about being "harsh". The voice of truth is as sharp as a razorblade."

This seems very dangerous to me to say this here, in this way.

...

The same sword you wield could be used to put you to death also.



Dear Chris,

I think you have miscontstrued my statement outside of the context of the conversation. What you are saying is right, in principle. How dare we go beyond what the Lord has allowed, in word, in deed, and in thought?

What I meant by this was that Brothertom's post sounded a bit apologetic and fearful, as if he didn't have the right to say what he said, at the core of which is the fear of man. The Word of the Lord is a two-edged sword and we must be careful not to mishandle or misuse it, but when it is indeed the word of the Lord in our mouth, then we cannot be afraid that people will lash back at us when we speak and be angered by what we have said. We cannot think about how they will [i]perceive[/i] us--as gentle or as harsh--but we should comport ourselves solely in the sight of God, and He will honor that.

Taken out of the context, however, what I have said can indeed be a dangerous slogan.

[EDIT] Upon rereading my post, I admit to have misphrased this first sentence. "Don't worry about being harsh" can be misleading and should be read as "Don't worry about [i]sounding[/i] harsh in this instance"--and not in general. Thanks for bringing this up, brother. I need to be careful with my tongue.

 2008/4/7 6:30
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

I dont like certain things about Hogan either but for anyone called into the same calling as hogan he is extremely inspiring.
He treats some people the way he does because he has zero patience for certain mindsets.
He dislikes the fact that there are so few missionaries in his area of ministry.

He is effective beyond 99% of most ministries and thats all those Indians care about

 2008/4/7 8:21Profile
rowdy2
Member



Joined: 2007/1/21
Posts: 528
Southern USA

 Re:

Hi, to everyone

There are two types of fountains.
Jesus is the only fountain on Earth that contains the Love of God.
Love should be the topic of Christian conversation.
We are harmless, we love our neighbors, we love God.
We fear God, we should keep our Father’s commandments to love our neighbors.
We are His sheep, Have you ever saw two sheep fighting like goats? No!
Leave the wilderness of murmuring behind and by faith look across Jordan.
Don’t drink from the fountain of gall that the world drinks from.

There is no name above the name of Jesus at my house.
There is no name above the name of Jesus in Europe.
There is no name above the name of Jesus in Mexico.

Eddie


_________________
Eddie

 2008/4/7 9:29Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Don't be deceived.

[b]gallimatia: n.[/b] [i]nonsense; talk without meaning[/i]

Much of that here ...

If just 2% of all these embellishments, exaggerations, flat out lies, repugnant character qualities are true it is more than enough of an indictment. There is enough testimony and blatant attributes exposed from the man's own lips that it is uncanny and incredible that there is any propping up of any of this. How much has to go by the wayside unaddressed to speak of any good, of any equivocating or defending of such outlandish claims, character and butchering of the scriptures?

"[i]Somebody needs to stand up. ... He has serious mental problems"[/i]

"[i]Hogan can make all the boastful claims he wants but the Church must stand up and say, “Prove it!”[/i]

'[i]Landry openly disclosed that “David’s problems go way back and he has been telling tall tales his whole life. I have caught him in so many lies that I have lost track.”

When asked if he thought Hogan was a pathological liar, Landry said, “Yes” without hesitation.[/i]'

[url=http://www.pfo.org/exploits.htm]The Remarkable Exploits of David Hogan[/url]

Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do. Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned: From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling; Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm. But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for [u]liars[/u], for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
1Ti 1:6-10

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all [u]liars[/u], shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Rev 21:8


Before anyone gets themselves all bent out of shape over this or wants to begin the discrediting process of an article, compare it with the other testimonies here. Again, if even smallest percentage collectively doesn't paint a very incredible picture ... Prove that he never said what he said or otherwise prove that he did indeed say what he did and bring forth evidence backing the claims ... at the least. Moreover, just where one would find any scriptural precedent for the vast majority of all this? It is almost strange to say that this could be secondary scriptural warrant, in regards to the claims when the heart issues, pride, haughty, boastful attributes are so obnoxiously loud. How can this be give a pass?

Dodging or simply ignoring the incredulous issues of integrity, character and honesty at the expense of ... who knows what that is being defended is to put one in the place of being an accessory to the same crimes.

Dear saints, there is nothing mean spirited about it, but we just cannot be so easily deceived, we must test all things and judge with right judgment. Don't get over emotional about it or turn this into a commotion, just think, consider ... please.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2008/4/7 10:15Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779


 Re:

Hi psalm1...

Quote:
I dont like certain things about Hogan either but for anyone called into the same calling as hogan he is extremely inspiring.
He treats some people the way he does because he has zero patience for certain mindsets.
He dislikes the fact that there are so few missionaries in his area of ministry.

Is this true? Do you know WHY he acts the way he does? I followed the link provided by brother Mike (crsschk) and it arrives to a testimony that mirrors my own feelings. There is something quite disturbing about the actions of David Hogan as he struts around on stage -- and it can't be equated to his feeling about the lack of missionaries (or support thereof). There are many wonderful lesser-known missionaries in Mexico who are also aware of the lack of support for those who labor amongst the Indians.

Justo Jordan Chavana has helped build churches in Mexico and Cuba for over two decades. A former drug addict and member of the mob, Justo Chavana spends his life to bring the Gospel to the indigenous tribes in Mexico (such as the Tarahumara). God has transformed him from a wild and pompous drug addict into a humble servant of the Cross. Chavana is also saddened by a lack of support from the American church -- but he is encouraged that his labor is not in vain. He has often stated that God will support those efforts that are ordained by the Lord. Incredible things have happened during his trips into Mexico, but these do not evolve into a point of self-adulation. Justo Chavana has changed from a wealthy drug distributor into an extremely humble man of God. Other men, like Matias Duran, also humbly bring the Gospel into poor unreached areas of Mexico. These men are concerned more about the welfare and spiritual condition of those on the mission field than their reception and respect by other Christians.

David Hogan, on the other hand, is willing to label anyone who questions or disagrees with his own claims or tactics as a "devil." Hogan's messages are simply tales of his supernatural abilities and a prominent display of theatrics on stage. While Chavana and Hogan are supposedly called into the same sort of "ministry" in Mexico, there is a world of difference between the two men.
Quote:
He is effective beyond 99% of most ministries and thats all those Indians care about

Once again, I have to ask upon what evidence you are basing this. Did you reach this 99% success rate on the basis of Hogan's own claims? Or did you base this upon some other form of evidence? I have spoken with pastors, missionaries and believers from throughout Mexico -- and most have NEVER HEARD of David Hogan. In fact, those who have heard of this man are emphatic that he is simply a self-promoter who exaggerates his claims.

The bottom line is that we must be careful with our words -- both of criticism and support. We should not criticize men based upon personal prejudices unless an issue can be raised that is based upon the Word of God. Likewise, we should NEVER accept the claims of a man of God based solely upon his own tales and those of his followers. My problem with Hogan is not one of personality conflict. Rather, it deals with the doctrinal issues that are implied by his supernatural claims. I am a Pentecostal believer. However, I do not hastily accept many of the supernatural claims of a man who talks with demonic owls, cast demons out of 4 year olds, physically runs from demons or claims that those who do not readily accept his claims are "devils."

:-(


_________________
Christopher

 2008/4/7 10:31Profile









 Re: David Hogan?


CCChris,

Thank you for your reply. I have less trouble with the supernatural things you mention, but they are not necessarily a testimony of [i]Hogan's[/i] spirituality. His methods and message, also - as I listened for a few minutes on youtube last night - do appear to be lacking in Christocentricity, which is always an open door for spiritual interference.

It's difficult to know where the line is, between whatever truth he does really bring to bear in a practical way in people's lives, and what God sees in his life which both he and God knows is unacceptable. I don't know how we can know... but (I have to say), being a pastor's son is a huge disadvantage, which until he has recovered from the adverse effects of it, will continue to dictate much of how he thinks and acts, and to misdirect his message.

 2008/4/7 11:55









 Re:


The Remarkable Exploits of David Hogan

http://www.pfo.org/exploits.htm

Thank You Chris for bringing this to our attention.

Terriffic article!

Katy

 2008/4/7 14:34
destinysweet
Member



Joined: 2007/11/19
Posts: 159


 Re:

Do we see our brother's sin? Does he have sickness within his soul..his mind, will and emotions at emnity with the perfection that is in Christ?
Why do we see it? Because the light of Christ exposes the darkness and all things are coming to light..being exposed..God would not have us decieved.
What are we called to do about it? What does God desire be done? Redemption!Healing,Restoration!

We'd best talk to God about him first,this one being exposed..praying earnestly,interceding on his behalf..are we not God's royal priesthood? Our High Priest stands watching all the words fly and He says,Pray my people.I stand ever in intercession..so must you.Then you will know what to speak..always in that order..then you will be full of merciful Grace and you will direct others to pray as well.

And I hear the voices of many rising up to God.
Give us revival! We need revival!

Why do we not see revival..O God? We love you God!


He says it is because we do not love our neighbor as we love ourselves. What if you were Hogan,try to imagine yourself in this kind of trouble..God have mercy!

Would you lay down your life for him,for David Hogan..how about a few hours sustained prayer..How about a few minutes each day,at least as many as the letters of the words you've spoken/written to point out his failings...effective prayer born of faith in God's all encompassing mercy ..the same mercy that saved you...Loving spirit filled prayer? To the measure we mete out..this is what recieve in return. God looks out over the earth and what will He see? Will He find faithfulness? An outpouring of love for the body falling asleep,away,in peril,distress? This He says is a key many do not use..it dangles uslessly at their sides..unused..unattended.

First things first..Pray earnestly and genuinely..if He says to speak..then your words will impact the man as well as those you seek to warn..this is the double edge aspect many fail to discern..the Word of God never returns void..it always goes forth and accomplishes that which it was sent forth to do..so if you are speaking..lest your words fall to the ground because they are not what you are to be speaking..or the way..The Way you are to be speaking.What a useless waste of time,which is opportunity..a window in which to get the job done,to accomplish what God would see accomplished,the time is short.

Pray..do unto him what you would have him do for you if the roles were reversed ..if you were in his condition.


The Father's Love and Christ's passion come to earth..His sacrifice and His merciful forgiveness is the only thing that took our blinders off our eyes so we could see our need to humble ourselves before Him,making us able to see our sin..is our brother blind..unable to see..however we are able to see? God cared when we were too blind to see,can we do no less but to faithfully adminster that same care and mercy towards those we see are out of the Way..we see it so we can help him...bottom line.Our prayers will reach alot further than hasty words spoken out of season..but our words spoken as a prayer..as our life must be as a living prayer unto Him..therein lies the effectiveness..the ability to help create the necessary change.

Pray! then speak! Let all things be done in ..what? in order! Pray first..has He released you to speak? Then speak with confidence.You will speak rightly..with power born of love..pure and effective. Expect change. Faith sees that which cannot be seen, as already coming to pass. Is it God's will for your brother,your neighbor who you might not call your brother, to be made right? God would have none perish in their sins..Go ahead,be in expectation for miracles..the miracle of a changed heart and mind results in a changed life..a life that will Glorify God for His Name's sake! God is gracious..He will answer the heartfelt prayers of His saints which are in alignment with His perfect will..Love..This is His perfect will..Pray..Be being filled with the Spirit of grace and mercy..He fills, we pour forth in prayer,He refills..it becomes automatic..a constant..are you trained in this...ask for Him to give you such a heart as this..it is His Heart..it is His Way,His Will.

We desire revival? Love God,obey Him only..be disciplined by Him,trained under His mighty hand.
Be the holy priesthood! Love your neighbor!Pray!
Again, I beseech you in this, Pray!


_________________
G.M. (Destiny) Sweet

 2008/4/7 14:58Profile









 Re:

Quote:

destinysweet wrote:

We'd best talk to God about him first,this one being exposed..praying earnestly,interceding on his behalf..are we not God's royal priesthood? Our High Priest stands watching all the words fly and He says,Pray my people.I stand ever in intercession..so must you.Then you will know what to speak..always in that order..then you will be full of merciful Grace and you will direct others to pray as well.



A prayer according to the will of God is answered, but a prayer according to our will will not be heard. It is better to conform to God's revealed will than to pray Him for a way out of it.

How do we know that God hears our prayer? I believe it must be a prayer that [i]He has initiated[/i] in our hearts by His Spirit, which He hears because it is indeed according to His will. But our hearts must be pure for this to happen and our hands clean, and our ears unstopped--for unless we're vessels prepared for God, blameless in His sight, how can we expect our prayers to move Him? "Love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from sincere faith" (Tit. 1:5).

I remember there was a time in my walk with the Lord when I created this long prayer list of people whom I'd met or talked to, and who I thought needed much prayer, believers and unbelievers alike. I had read about some man of God whose prayers saved many people, so I tried to do likewise. I had good intentions in this endeavor of mine, but I cannot say my prayers were heard, for I didn't know how to pray and I had no assurance I was doing things the right way. I went through the list, often times not feeling like praying at all. It was some spiritual duty for me, some discipline that I considered necessary for being in good standing before the Lord.

Now that I look back upon that time and that forgotten list of people, I see a lot of my own ambition at the heart of those prayers and much less of the will of God. I don't know how many were heard or answered. I have learned though that communing with the Lord in prayer is more than going through a checklist with Him, and concluding with a sigh, "I am glad I have fulfilled my daily chore." Those prayers I said were more for me to listen to God than to speak to Him. He would put burdens on my heart for certain people. He would give me a message to deliver to someone else. So often my obedience to God would be not to pray for people as a part of my agenda, but to go and confront them about a behavior of theirs--or something altogether different from what my fleshly mind had envisioned.

I felt bad at times, for there were no visible results from my praying. People weren't turning from their sin; I felt condemned almost, as if I was underachieving in prayer. I had imposed so many burdens on myself that I just couldn't lift myself up. I had seen prayer as a job, a duty, as an exercise I had to go through in order to "make my mark" in the kingdom of God--which would not have been made had I skipped my going through the tiny scrap of paper. I am glad the Lord has freed me from that condemnation. For my time was spent in praying for officials and all sorts of random people (some of those prayers I believe [i]were[/i] according to the will of God) and being so busy [i]performing[/i] that "service"--I had missed the voice of the Lord.

Indeed, we are commanded to pray for all the saints. But we should never go beyond--or short of--what the Lord has put on our hearts to do. We should not add to or subtract from His commandments. There is a blessed simplicity in the Christian life, when we continually present ourselves before God in prayer, allowing ourselves to be soaked into the mind of God and emptied of self-induced ambitions and everything that hinders the work of God in and through us; when we are not trying to do too much to bring about revival, but when we are doing the [i]little[/i] we've been assigned, patiently continuing in doing good to the pleasure of our Heavenly Father.

So, what shall I say about Mr. Hogan? Shall I pray for Him? Did Abraham spend sleepless nights praying for the people of Sodom and Gomorrha? For the adulterers and liars of that generation? Or perhaps we are so caught up in the world, that we cannot tell the difference between the righteous and the ungodly?

I know God to be a merciful God--He has definitely shown Himself as such toward me--but even His mercy runs out. Just like Noah warned the ancient world about the coming flood, but no one listened to his preaching. He did it for a while, until one day, when the Lord commanded, he took his family on the arc, shut his mouth, and let the waters be poured out on the world of the ungodly. A tree is judged by its fruit, and if for a certain period of time it bears no fruit, it is cut down and thrown into the fire. Here are two passages that come to mind:

[i]Luk 13:6 He also spoke this parable: "A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came looking for fruit on it and found none.

Luk 13:7 Then he said to the vinedresser, 'Look, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree, and I haven't found any. Cut it down; why does it even waste the ground?'

Luk 13:8 But he answered and said to him, 'Sir, let it alone this year also, until I dig around it and fertilize it.

Luk 13:9 [b]And if it produces fruit, fine. But if not, in the coming year, you can cut it down[/b].'"

Mat 21:18 Now in the morning, as He returned to the city, He was hungry.

Mat 21:19 And seeing a fig tree by the road, He came to it and found nothing on it but leaves, and said to it, "Let no fruit grow on you ever again." Immediately [b]the fig tree withered away[/b].[/i]


Can we have the love of God if it is [i]stripped of justice[/i]?

Look at this verse again:

[i]2Th 2:11 And because of this, [b]God will send them strong delusion[/b], in order for them to believe the lie,
2Th 2:12 [b]so that they all might be damned[/b] who did not believe the truth, but delighted in unrighteousness.[/i]

It is a sobering reality of the righteous judgment of God upon the ungodly! The apostle Paul, too, understood this and wrote:

[i]Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, [b]mark[/b] them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and [b]avoid[/b] them.[/i]

He did not say, "Pray for the false teachers night and day without ceasing for this is your Christian duty," but instead warned the Romans to [u]mark[/u] them and to [u]avoid[/u] them. What else shall [i]we[/i] do when they willingly blaspheme the Spirit of Christ?

Quote:
Do we see our brother's sin?



David Hogan may be yours, but he definitely is NOT my brother.

Slavyan

 2008/4/7 16:28





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