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Discussion Forum : News and Current Events : Barna: Pastors Need to Push Flocks Harder on Spiritual Matters

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brentw
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Joined: 2005/12/14
Posts: 440
Ohio

 Re:

taco,

"Obey them that have rule over you" Hebrews 11


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Brent

 2006/1/25 16:09Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

brentw's

Quote:
philologos,

"I wasn't just playing with words when I took issue with the word 'push'. Paul's admonition to Timothy is"
I dont understand what your driving at??? Are you a young preacher??


Yes.... once.... a long time ago. ;-)


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Ron Bailey

 2006/1/25 17:36Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 trust those who are leading you

brentw's

Quote:
"Obey them that have rule over you" Hebrews 11

Perhaps you have been following some of the other threads which have touched on the way that the issue of 'authority' has a particular bias in the KJV. Your quotation is actually from Hebrews 13:17. I thought some might be interested to trace the history of this particular verse.Tyndale 1525 "Obeye the that have the oversight of you and submit youre selves to them for they watch for youre soules even as they that must geve a comptes: that they maye do it with ioye and not with grefe. For that is an vnproffitable thynge for you."

Coverdale 1535 "Obey [u]them that haue the ouersighte off you[/u], and submytte youre selues vnto them: for they watch for youre soules, euen as they that must geue accoptes therfore, that they maye do it with ioye, and not with grefe: for that is an vnprofitable thinge for you."

Geneva Bible "Obey[u] them that haue the ouersighte off you[/u], and submytte youre selues vnto them: for they watch for youre soules, euen as they that must geue accoptes therfore, that they maye do it with ioye, and not with grefe: for that is an vnprofitable thinge for you."

Bishops' Bible 1568 "Obey [u]them that haue the ouersight of you[/u], and submit your selues: for they watche for your soules, as they that must geue accomptes, that they may do it with ioy, and not with griefe: for that is vnprofitable for you."

KJV 1611 "Obey [u]them that haue the rule ouer you[/u], and submit your selues: for they watch for your soules, as they that must giue account, that they may doe it with ioy, and not with griefe: for that is vnprofitable for you." It is not difficult to see the sudden raising of the profile from 'those watching over you' to 'those who have the rule over you'. This is why we must always examine the KJV carefully when it is speaking about church order.

'hegeomai' the verb translated 'rule' is not 'rule' at all but rather 'lead. In addition the verb peithO is better translated 'trust'. A more accurate translation of this verse would be 'trust those who aree leading you', conveys a very different atmosphere to 'obey those who rule you'.


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Ron Bailey

 2006/1/25 17:56Profile
brentw
Member



Joined: 2005/12/14
Posts: 440
Ohio

 Re: trust those who are leading you

Great insight Ron.

But to Taco this means God delagated authority. The word obey is in every translation Ron just wrote. But the word obey does mean to submit. Maybe we can just break down the whole KJV and call it greek and hebrew ;-)


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Brent

 2006/1/25 18:27Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
But the word obey does mean to submit.

Yes, I don't want to imprison ideas in boxes. It's just that quite often there are several different words in the Greek translated by just one in English. (and often vice versa) and the nuances produced by them can be quite different.

This is how Vine's describes 'peithO' the word used in Heb 13:17[i][b]peitho[/i][[/b] "to persuade, to win over," in the Passive and Middle Voices, "to be persuaded, to listen to, to obey," is so used with this meaning, in the Middle Voice, e.g., in Acts_5:36-37 (in Acts_5:40, Passive Voice, "they agreed"); Rom_2:8; Gal_5:7; Heb_13:17; James_3:3. The "obedience" suggested is not by submission to authority, but resulting from persuasion.
"Peitho and pisteuo" 'to trust,' are closely related etymologically; the difference in meaning is that the former implies the obedience that is produced by the latter, cp. Heb_3:18,19, where the disobedience of the Israelites is said to be the evidence of their unbelief. Faith is of the heart, invisible to men; obedience is of the conduct and may be observed. When a man obeys God he gives the only possible evidence that in his heart he believes God. Of course it is persuasion of the truth that results in faith (we believe because we are persuaded that the thing is true, a thing does not become true because it is believed), but peitho, in NT suggests an actual and outward result of the inward persuasion and consequent faith." [ From Notes on Thessalonians, by Hogg and Vine, pp. 254,255.] You can see by this that 'piethO' is not a blind obedience but a 'pursuaded obedience'. In a sense it is 'reasoned obedience' and the hearer obeys because of the inward persuasion rather than an outward insistence.

Notice the link that Vine makes between 'peithO' and 'pisteuO'. "Peitho and pisteuo" 'to trust,' are closely related etymologically; the difference in meaning is that the former implies the obedience that is produced by the latter.

Greek has another word for 'obey' and Vine has a list of the way this word is used.[i][b]hupakouO[/i][/b] "to listen, attend" (as in Acts_12:13), and so, "to submit, to obey," is used of "obedience"
(a) to God Heb_5:9; Heb_11:8;
(b) to Christ, by natural elements, Matt_8:27; Mark_1:27; Mark_4:41; Luke_8:25;
(c) to disciples of Christ, Luke_17:6;
(d) to the faith, Acts_6:7; the Gospel, Rom_10:16; 2_Thess_1:8; Christian doctrine, Rom_6:17 (as to a form or mold of teaching);
(e) to apostolic injunctions, Php_2:12; 2_Thess_3:14;
(f) to Abraham by Sarah, 1_Pet_3:6;
(g) to parents by children, Eph_6:1; Col_3:20;
(h) to masters by servants, Eph_6:5; Col_3:22;
(i) to sin, Rom_6:12;
(j) in general, Rom_6:16.This word seems to be much more related to 'hierarchy' of one kind or another. Literally the word means 'to hear from beneath'. ie the one hearing is 'under' the one speaking. The way this word is used is very instructive. Each time there is a specific and definable order within the relationship.

If the writer to the Hebrews had wanted to say 'obey your rulers' in the sense of unconditional hierarchical obedience I feel sure that he would have chosen [i][b]hupakouO[/i][/b] rather than [i][b]peitho[/i][[/b]

Have you heard the story about the little boy in the church meeting who wanted to stand on his seat.? "Sit down" said his father
"I want to stand up" he replied
"Sit down" said his father "or I will smack your leg".
"All right" said the boy "but on the 'inside' I'm still standing up."I quote the story because although genuine 'submission' will entail 'obedience', 'obedience' does not always indicate 'submission'. :-)


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Ron Bailey

 2006/1/26 10:11Profile
brentw
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Joined: 2005/12/14
Posts: 440
Ohio

 Re:

:-o :-o :-o


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Brent

 2006/1/26 11:40Profile





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