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Discussion Forum : News and Current Events : Barna: Pastors Need to Push Flocks Harder on Spiritual Matters

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disciplejosh
Member



Joined: 2003/6/13
Posts: 210
Southern California

 Re:

I agreed with brother Ron first off when i read the post title. 'Push' the flock made me think of those who 'beat' the flock rather than 'feed' the flock, feed the lambs, feed the sheep, tend the sheep.

The flock God has given to a pastor will not go where their pastor has not gone on before. The Ravenhill quote, brother Robert, I believe goes, "A river will never rise higher than it's source."

I agree concerning the situation with the topic, It's just the wording that threw me off.


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Josh

 2006/1/24 15:24Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

I wasn't just playing with words when I took issue with the word 'push'. Paul's admonition to Timothy is Let no man despise thy youth; but how do you prevent someone from despising your role in the church? The answer follows the admonition...“be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity. Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine. Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery. Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all. Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.” (1Tim. 4:12-16, KJVS) I think this is a poignant statement. Paul says let your 'profiting' ie your 'progress' appear to all. It is not the shepherd's status that draws on the flock, not his attainments and not his words but his 'progress'. There is no greater stimulus to progress than to see our leaders pressing on with God. The authority of the 'shepherd' does not lie in his position but in his moral example. Only a 'moving man' can say 'follow me'.

Jesus didn't issue long lists of requirements, He said 'follow me'. So did Paul.1Cor. 4:16 (KJVS) Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.
1Cor. 11:1 (KJVS) Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.


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Ron Bailey

 2006/1/24 18:26Profile
brentw
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Joined: 2005/12/14
Posts: 440
Ohio

 Re:

philologos,

[size=x-small]"I wasn't just playing with words when I took issue with the word 'push'. Paul's admonition to Timothy is" [/size]
I dont understand what your driving at??? Are you a young preacher??

And about your comment on a pastor of "moral example" which I disagree with to a point. God delagates His authority. A pastor IS Gods delagated authority. Watchmen Nee has a whole book called Gods delagated authority which is totally biblical. Yes a pastor should be a moral example! Whether he is or isnt....doesnt take away his delagated authority.


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Brent

 2006/1/24 18:49Profile
apostlepaul
Member



Joined: 2005/11/28
Posts: 8
NEVADA, TEXAS

 Re:

I agree to! Pastors and evangelist, and men of God need to lead with authority in their lives by living the Gospel. The lord once told a preacher I listened to, he said, you can only bring or lead your flock into spirituality only as far as you have come. In other words only as close to me as you are and seperated from the world and its pull. We have to be examples! So I agree you can't push, but you surely should know how to lead. with the love of christ . your brother David.


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DAVID PACE

 2006/1/24 22:00Profile
brentw
Member



Joined: 2005/12/14
Posts: 440
Ohio

 Re:

I totally agee that a pastor cant "push"! I still believe Barna isnt refering to push as kicking someone to get spiritual. Emphasize is what I think hes driving at here. But we are getting hung up on one word and maybe dont see the blessing??
I guess enough said. :-(


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Brent

 2006/1/24 23:07Profile
taco
Member



Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 211


 Re:

Quote:
A pastor IS Gods delagated authority



Can you provide scriptural evidence of this?

 2006/1/25 6:44Profile









 Re: Pastors Need to Push Flocks....

Maybe the problem is truly with the pastors in this survey. I know that sounds harsh but in reality, sheep will only go as far up the mountain as the shepherd takes them. Shepherds cannot "push" sheep anywhere that they themselves are not willing to go first.

What does anyone else think?

 2006/1/25 8:57
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

feed the flock of God that 'is' among you, overseeing not [u]constrainedly[/u], but willingly, neither for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind, [u]neither as exercising lordship[/u] over the heritages, but patterns becoming of the flock. (I Peter 5:3, 4 YLT)

[u]constrainedly[/u]• compel or force (someone) toward a particular course of action : children are constrained to work in the way the book dictates (Oxford American Dictionary).

Compare these translations:


Be mindful of those [u]leading you[/u], who did speak to you the word of God, whose faith -- considering the issue of the behaviour -- be imitating, (Hebrews 13:7 YLT)

Remember them which have [u]the rule over you[/u], who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation. (Hebrews 13:7 KJV)

Be [u]obedient[/u] to those leading you, and be subject, for these do watch for your souls, as about to give account, that with joy they may do this, and not sighing, for this 'is' unprofitable to you. (Hebrews 13:17 YLT)

Obedient is Greek [i]peitho[/i]. Various ways the same word is translated in the KJV:

be confident, believe, have confidence, misc, obey, persuade, trust

Interestingly in the very next verse (Hebrews 13:[u]18[/u]) the word is translated as 'trust'.

Pray for us: for we [u]trust[/u] we have a good conscience, in all things willing to live honestly. (Hebrews 13:18)

Trust and be 'subject' to those who are leading. Ephesians also tells us to submit ourselves one to another in the fear of God. It is an attitude of the heart one towards another and especially those who are leading the flock. It is different than the IRON FIST type rule that it so often comes off as. With Christ as the Head and a mutual submission to one another and especially those leading we have safety. It is when Christ is [u]not[/u] truly the head and men LORD over God's heritage that serious problems arise.










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Robert Wurtz II

 2006/1/25 9:08Profile
disciplejosh
Member



Joined: 2003/6/13
Posts: 210
Southern California

 Re:

Great input, Ron and Robert.

I have really been chewing on obedience lately. I love how it keeps popping up in so many different aspects in practical daily living and walking with the Lord.


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Josh

 2006/1/25 10:10Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi Bro. Josh,

Quote:
I have really been chewing on obedience lately. I love how it keeps popping up in so many different aspects in practical daily living and walking with the Lord.



Does it seem to you that the thoughts conveyed in the scripures are to the purpose of us doing the right thing without it causing an argument or a rift?

What I mean is, as those who lead and teach the Word declare what God expects of us through the revelation of scripture, it seems that the afore mentioned passages call upon the hearer to submit to what God has said through the word (from the hands of the shepherds) and at the same time reminding the shepherds not to get the 'big head' (so to speak) and try to overstep their role. This attitude of lowliness and meekness on both parties part seems essential to keeping things moving in the right direction without conflicting with the attitude requirements or the 'spirit' or the 'nature' of the Born Again believer.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2006/1/25 10:55Profile





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