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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : The differecne between men and angels!

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 The differecne between men and angels!

Hi Guys

Angels were born into the presence of God. They were immediately privileged to dwell in the unadulterated presence of God Almighty. It is obvious that they had the ability to sin, as man did, but there is a direct correlation between proximity to God and depth of sin and rebellion. Men know in part, and have at best, vague notions of God. Angels knew everything there was to know about God and what it meant to dwell in His presence continually. Obviously to reject that, there is no where else to go. Redemption is to bring someone into a right relationship with God, Angels already had that. This is what they rejected, that is why they are already judged.

Adam and Eve had limited contact with God. God would come in the cool of the day and walk with them. What the born-again Christian looks forward to is something even better than the garden of Eden. When we pass over, we will dwell in the unadulterated presence of God eternally.But while we remain here on earth, we dwell in a “Garden like,” existence. So, while Adam and Eve now had the knowledge of good and evil, their experience with God was limited, therefore their rejection of Him was also limited and the possibility of salvation still existed.

Imagine a palace, the wealthiest palace ever built. Now imagine children grow up in that palace and other children grow up in the slums of the city in which the palace is situated. Some of the children in the palace will become spoiled brats, while others will appreciate what they have. Who knows why some choose one way and some choose another. The ones who reject the palace living and do not appreciate it, who grow rebellious and believe that there could be something better, they can never be happy and ultimately will begin to hate their surroundings. The formula is simple and applies to every created being. One can either appreciate what they have and live in thankfulness or they can focus on what they do not have. The mistake made in humans is that many believe if they are simply thankful for what they have, they will not “succeed,” in life. Being content with their lot goes against their culture. Yet God blesses those who He will.

Now imagine the children of the slums. They are born and raised in the slums. They know what it is like to be hungry, to have little or no material goods. They know what it is like to be trapped in generational circumstances. Four hundred years of slavery in Egypt, two hundred years of slavery in America, several hundred of years of peasantry in Europe are all examples of peoples whose lives did not change from one generation to the next. These are people who knew what to be “hopeless,” truly meant. Now imagine, out of that darkness, the man in charge of the palace, comes into the slums, comes into Egypt, comes into America, comes into Europe, and offers every single dweller the opportunity to come and dwell in the palace. For those who accept the offer, can you imagine how they would differ from the original palace dwellers who had become discontent? Because they had known what it was like to suffer depravation, hunger and hopelessness, the slum dwellers joy in his knew surroundings would be impossible to measure, Their gratefulness and gratitude would be without end.

Now imagine the palace dwellers who had rejected the palace life because of discontentment, lack of gratitude. They now dwell in the slums, and it is so much more difficult for them to dwell there. In fact, it is impossible to estimate their misery because one would have to have dwelt in the unadulterated presence of God and then experience the exact opposite. (This is the true hell of Calvary ) To compound this, they know that once they rejected palace living and left, it would be impossible to return. So their level of hopelessness is a “pure,” hell if you like.

Many of you may know about Calvin and his counterpart Arminius. They held views that diametrically opposed each other. To break it down to its simplest of terms one believed that once saved always saved, and the other believed that it was possible to lose ones salvation. This is a debate that has been going on for centuries and continues to this day. There are good men on either side of this debate and it is without doubt that there will be no conclusion until Jesus comes back. There are too many denominations nowadays, there can be no council held to clear up the matter, so the issue lies with each individual Christian.

The question would be, is it possible for the slum dwellers to enter the palace and then make the same mistake as the previous tenants? (Rom 11:20-21) Remember the palace existence is akin to the Garden of Eden. The Lord comes in the cool of the day and walks with the palace dwellers. It is not until one dies and crosses over that one will dwell for all eternity in the presence of God. How do we know that we will dwell for eternity in the presence of God? He tells us in His word and His word cannot be broken.

So, if you have ever pondered the questions raised by Calvin and his counterpart, and never came to a conclusion, or did but there is room for doubt, how then should one live in order to be certain? Many times Christians will say to non-Christians that even if the Christian is wrong, then the only harm done will have been to have lived a life of honesty and integrity and a life that tried to love his fellow human being. If the non-Christian is wrong, obviously there is the dire consequences of hell.

What if you're a Calvinist and your wrong? What if you believe that you could lose your salvation and your wrong. The Calvinist would say that the other side would live in fear, with no assurance of salvation, Arminius would say that the other side would live without fear of God and live any way he wanted, neither of these are desirable ways to live. What if we just lived in thankfulness for our salvation? No matter what circumstances came our way, we simply decided to focus on what we do have, namely salvation. We live in the joy of knowing that we once dwelt in the slums and now we dwell in the palace.

Brothers and sisters, never make the same mistake as the original palace dwellers and become discontent with your Christian existence. Even if it does not lead to losing your salvation (and remember the jury is still out) it is an affront to God the Father and to everything that was sacrificed on Calvary. Let us live in a continual state of thankfulness and gratitude that God Himself has redeemed us from the gutters of life. If we live in this manner, in a manner of genuine thankfulness and gratitude and love, then the matter of Calvin and his counterpart Arminius becomes irrelevant.

In the beauty of Holiness
Frank

 2006/1/20 23:30









 Re: The differecne between men and angels!

I thought this should not slide to page two, as it is a subject that comes up frequently.

It can stop schisms on the subject.

It's worth the read and if the subject comes up again, it can be bumped, rather than open the debate all over again.

Peace on this is great.

 2006/1/24 1:48
Graftedbranc
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Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re: The differecne between men and angels!

Quote:
Adam and Eve had limited contact with God. God would come in the cool of the day and walk with them. What the born-again Christian looks forward to is something even better than the garden of Eden. When we pass over, we will dwell in the unadulterated presence of God eternally.But while we remain here on earth, we dwell in a “Garden like,” existence. So, while Adam and Eve now had the knowledge of good and evil, their experience with God was limited, therefore their rejection of Him was also limited and the possibility of salvation still existed.



Angels are created to be creatures to worship God and do His bidding. Man was not created as such. God created man in His image and likeness with a human spirit designed to recieve God Himself by eating of the Tree of Life.

Man was created not to be another creature like the angels to surround God's throne to worship Him. Man was created in His mage and likeness as a vessel to contain and express God Himself on the earth. Rev 21-22)

Man's destiny in redemption is not to be a creature like the angels, But to be God's expression. Man is destined through Christ to be to God His eternal tabernacle, His dwelling place, and His expression. He is destined to be to Christ His match, His Bride, His Wife constituted with His Life and nature as Eve was constitued with Adam's nature.

Man is destined in Christ to be His eternal counterpart. To be the Same as He is in life, nature, function, and expression.

We shall be like Him because we shall see Him as He is.

Graftedbranch

 2006/1/26 13:10Profile









 Re:

Angels were created with free will. Free will is the essence of man. Man will never match Christ, man is counted worthy because of Christ, but does not , nor ever will match Him. If I were ungracious I would imagine that statement could come close to what Lucifer thought, but I am sure that is not what you meant. One more thing, Adam and Eve did not recieve God by eating of the tree...........Frank

 2006/1/26 21:44
Graftedbranc
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Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
Angels were created with free will. Free will is the essence of man. Man will never match Christ, man is counted worthy because of Christ, but does not , nor ever will match Him.



The only way man matches Christ is by Christ being constituted into man. Christ has redeemed us on the Cross and in resurrection imaparts Himself into man and through the sanctifying work of the Spirit in renewing and tranforming us we are being made to conform to the image of the Firstborn Son of God.

It is no degradation of the Person of Christ to assert the value and work of Christ in redeeming us, and in imparting Himself into us to make us the same as He is in life and nature but not in the Godhead.

Romans 8:29 says" For whom He did forknow He did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first born among many brothers.

And in 2 cor. 3 Paul says, We all with unveiled face, beholding and reflecting as in a mirror the glory of the Lord are being transformed into the same image from Glory to Glory, even as by the Lord Spirit."

And John in 1 John says we are children of God, and what we shall be has not yet been manifested, but we shall be like Him because we shall see Him as He is.

All these verses show us the outcome of Christ's redemption, that is the producing of many sons sharing in His Life to be His many brothers to be His corporate expression as His body and His Bride.

In the end, the consumation of Christ's redemption and salvation is to produce a corporate Bride, fully conformed to His image, constituted with His Life and Nature to be His eternal Wife, counterpart and lover. And to God the Father to be His tabernacle, His dwelling place, the city of God, and His eternal expression. Revelation 21-22)

Satan's lie was that man, independant of God could "become as God". But God's intention is not independant "gods" but Children with His Life and Nature to be His expression bearing His image and likeness to rule, and to reign on the earth.

This is the bible. This is not man's theory but the full revelation of the Bible from Genesis to Revelation.


Graftedbranch

 2006/1/27 0:44Profile
Graftedbranc
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Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
Angels were created with free will. Free will is the essence of man. Man will never match Christ, man is counted worthy because of Christ, but does not , nor ever will match Him.



The Bible does not end with the saints in heaven with harps along side the angels worshiping God as his many creatures.

The Bible ends with the Holy City, New Jerusalem which decends from heaven to the new earth. And what is this holy city? John tells us it is the Bride, the Wife of the Lamb (Revelation 21:9).

And the last two chapters of the Bible show us the intrinsic constitution and nature of this Bride, this "Wife of the Lamb".

She is of pure gold, transparent as glass. Gold signifies the Divine nature. and the throne of God is in her midst, and the river of the Water of Life (The Spirit) flows through her street.

And God is expressed through her and she is adorned with the precious stones. What is this? The gold, the silver and the precious stones of which Paul says the Building of God is built with. Paul in 1 Cor 3:9-17 says, "you are God's cultivated land, God's building... and goes on to say that the building is built with gold, silver and precious stone on the one foundation which is Christ Himself.

We are God's building, a holy temple being built up into a dwelling place of God in spirit (Ephesions 2:21,22). The Bible ends with God's building and we are it.

Peter tells us we are all living stones being built up into a holy priesthood...

The Wife of the Lamb is the consumation of Christ's redemption. She is the consumation of the redeemed, regenerated, transformed, and transfigured tripartite saints, fully constituted with Christ as her life, her holiness, her rightousness, her everything.

She is to Christ what Eve was to Adam. A help meet for Him. One taken out of His side as He slept on the Cross. One built by God out of His LIfe and Nature to be His eternal match and counterpart.

The Bible begins with man created in the image and likeness of God. It shows us God's purpose that man would eat of the Tree of Life and recieve God and contain God and express God on the earth. It shows us man's fall and Satan's usurption of man and God's promise of redemption.

It shows us how God in Christ came to redeem man and to indwell man in Christ as his life. And the Bible ends with God's eternal purpose for man realized in the Holy City, New Jeruslalem not in heaven but in the New Earth.

The bible ends with the many sons of God who are the corporate Bride of Christ, the dwelling place of God, the city of God, the building of God, and the expression of God in the new Earth under the new heavens for all eternity with God in Christ as her Life, her light, and her all.

The bible begins with God's eternal purpose being revealed and ends with God's eternal purpose being relalized. That is that God in Man would be expressed on the earth in His many sons who were created in His image and likeness to rule the earth, subdue the earth and deal with His enemy.

Man was not created as the angels, but in His image and likenss with the capacity to recieve God Himself and contain Him and express Him.

Until we get hold of God's eternal purpose, we cannot understand what He is doing in us today. He is working toward this one goal. To conform us to the image of Christ, to constitute us with Christ as our life, our holiness, our rightousness, our all that we might live Him today as His body in the church life and to consumate the New jerusalem. He is building His Bride, His Wife, His countermpart in us, His redemeed, regeneratated tripartite beings to be His expression as the church and to consumate the New jerusalem in the comming eternal age.

Graftedbranch

 2006/1/27 1:01Profile









 Re:

Quote


The Bible does not end with the saints in heaven with harps along side the angels worshiping God as his many creatures.

I agree with this statement. Are we the Temple of the living God ? Yes. Is the temple greater or equal to Him who built it and dwells in it? No. Is th anology of Christ and His bride a beautiful one?Yes. Does that mean we are equal with God?No.Does the Lord Jesus give all authorit back to God the Father in Heaven?Yes. For now Jesus is the fulness of the Godhead. Will He give all this back to God the Father ?Yes. Even in the anology of us being the bride, who is the head of the wife according to the scriptures?Just some points to think about.............Frank

 2006/1/27 8:00
Graftedbranc
Member



Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
No. Is th anology of Christ and His bride a beautiful one?Yes. Does that mean we are equal with God?



The Bride of Christ is not an anology but a reality. Eve as the Bride of Adam is a type, a shadow of the reality which is Christ and His Bride. Our human relationship is a picture of the Reality (Ephesians 5:25-32).

And just as there was none found suitable for Adam from among the animals but she must be taken from Adam Himself to be a suitable mate for him, so the Bride of the Lamb must be taken from the Lamb Himself and built out of His very substance and nature.

Equality with God is not the point. What makes the Bride a match for Christ is Christ Himself. It is Christ constituted into us which makes us the same as He is in life and nature but not in the Godhead.

The Christ who indwells you is the same Christ who is in the heavens. He is not a different Christ. He indwells us as our Life (Gal 2:20, Col 3:4). And as He is constituted into us we become the same as He in Life and Nature.

The Life and Nature of Christ which is His very Person is that which makes us like Him.

In the Eternal ages, is there any sin there? No. Is there anything of the Old Creation? No. Is the Holy City holy? Yes. What makes her holy? God Himself.

We will never be equal to God in and of ourselves. But As God is wroght into us and we live by Him we are transformed into the same image from glory to glory.

Eventually, we will be match for the Lord JEsus as His Wife and Bride constituted with Him as our Life and nature. "That He might present the church to Himself glorious, not having any spot or wrinkle or any such things, but that she should be holy and without blemish"

Christ is God in and of Himself. He is the 2nd of the Divine Trinity. Very God of Very God.

We on the other hand are created beings with no inherent divinity. Yet, Christ became a man taking on our humanity bringing Divinity into humanity.

Christ is God who added humanity to himself. And we are human and through Christ are having God added to us in Christ as the Spirit. As the single grain of wheat, which fell to the ground to die, in resurrection He is producing the many grains out of the Life He released in His death.


And as those who are "partakers of the Divine Nature" by partaking of Christ, we are becomming by derivation what He is by His intrinsic being.

Man will never be worshiped as God. But as those who have God within us, as the many sons of God with His imparted Life and Nature we are growing up into Him in all things and in the end will be His corporate expression.

Christ is the unique only begotton Son of God from all eternity. But in death and resurrection He became "the First Born Son of God" from among the dead.

Christ as the First born has many brothers. We share in His Sonship. God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts crying Abba Father. And as sons of God with the Life of God, as we grow in this life, we are conformed into the Image of the Firstborn Son as His many brothers (Romans 8:29)

Graftedbranch

"We shall be like Him because we shall see Him as He is"

"we all with unveiled face, beholding and reflecting like a mirror the glory of the Lord are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord Spirit".

 2006/1/27 10:10Profile
Graftedbranc
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Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
Even in the anology of us being the bride, who is the head of the wife according to the scriptures?Just some points to think about.............Frank



Of course Christ is forever the head of the Body, and the head of the Wife. The Wife forever derives her life from the Husband as Eve is forever out of her husband, Adam.

The difference between Adam and Eve and Christ and the Church is that though Eve is derived from Adam in life and nature, Adam as a person does not indwell her and co-inhere with her.

But we on the other hand as Christ's bride, have Christ Himself within us. And The Divine Life wihin us is under the administration of Christ Himself as the Head.

While Eve is a separate person from Adam though possessing His nature, WE on the other hand have the Person of Christ within us. He is in us and His Life within us is not separate from Him but is His very Life. And this Life is forever His Life and He is Lord.

What the Bible reveals to us in John 14 is that Christ is in The Father and we are in Christ and the Father is in Christ and Christ is in us.

This is the Divine Human incorporation. God in Christ is incorporated into us and we in Christ are incorporated into the Father. "I am the way, the truth and the Life, no one comes unto the Father but by Me".

This is the plain unfolding of John 14. "In that day (the day of resurrection when the Spirit comes) you shall know that I am in My Father and you are in Me and I am in you."

Brothers and sisters, If we would advance in our Christian Life we need to have our eyes opened to this wonderful reality, That Christ is not just in the heavens, but He is wihin us, in our regenerated spirit with all the riches of His Person and His accomplishments.

His desire is to spread in us, saturate us with His own Life to impart into us all His riches. His Holiness, His rightousness, His wisdom and everything He is and all He has accomplished on the cross in terminating the old creation and in resurrection to impart His Divine and glorified human life into us to make us the same as He is in Life and nature but not in the Godhead.

When we see this we will cease to live an independant life of striving to be holy and rightouse, and we will learn to call on the Lord daily and in every circomstance. We will learn to feed on Christ in His word in order to have Christ imparted into us as the Bread of Life that "As I live by the Father, so He who eats me shall live because of Me".

We will begin to have confidence in Christ who is within us to be everything to us and we will call on Him, commune with Him, and partake of Him everytime we come to the Word. We will say with Paul, It is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me and the Life I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith of the Son of God who loved me and gave Himself for me".

Then, when we preach the gospel to our friends, neighbors and all those whom we contact, we will preach a Living Christ. As Paul says in Galatians, "In the fullness of time God was pleased to reveal His Son in me that I might preach Him."

We will speak out of the abundance of our experience of Christ as our indwelling Life and according to the revelation we recieve in the Bible by the Spirit. We will become vessels of Life and able to begett others with this Life. We will not just be preaching doctrines we have learned but the Christ whom we know.

Graftedbranch

 2006/1/27 12:17Profile
Graftedbranc
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Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re: What can we say?

I cannot say that I am in any way like the Lord Jesus, but today I can say that this Lord Jesus who is within me is no less than the Lord HImself. I cannot compare myself with the Lord Jesus but I can compare the Lord Jesus who is within me to the Lord Jesus because they are one and the same. I can say, 'we carry this treasure in earthen vessels".

I will never be able to look at myself and proudly say, I am like the Lord Jesus. But I can Look at the Lord Jesus and say, "Thank you Lord Jesus that you are within me and you are no less than yourself.

I can know that this One who is within me is the One who came into the world, lived as God manifest in the flesh is the One who said, "He is with you and shall be in you".

And in the end I will be fully permeated with Him and conformed to His image not by my own efforts or own nature but by His indwelling Life.

"And if the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised up Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you (Romans 8:11)"

We are His workmanship. We are His reproduction. We are being conformed to His image not by our own fallen human life but by His indwelling Life and the application of His Cross and on the basis of His judicial redemption.

He is able to save to the uttermost them who come to God through Him...

Graftedbranch

 2006/1/27 12:54Profile





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