| Poster | Thread |
| | Re: | | Hia Diane,
Could I comment on just two things you addressed to me in your reply.
You said: Quote:
What a long list of verses!!!! probably the longest post I have yet encountered on this forum.
Yet, I firmly believe that these verses will remain useless and limp until one truely knows love BY EXPERIENCE. One must first feel loved, believe that they are loved, and rest in love. Otherwise, the depth of love will always remain illusive.
The reason the list I had and gave was so long, was because I had compiled that list for someone years ago, that felt that Love was Not necessary to "remain in Christ".
You said, we must "feel loved first" ... but that's not in God's Word, that's sort of Psychology.
God's Word, and why I posted all of those verses, makes it a commandment we are told to just do... period. If you read all those verses you see that we have no excuse not to.
I just think the problem is, is that we've played around with the definition too much.
If Love is "selfless", then to wait until we are, or feel loved, would not make sense.
There are no "Professionals" on Love, that can tell you what it is ... it is only 'acted out' and can barely be defined by those who have His Love. Like the missionary Dr. in the Jungle, etc. etc. quietly toiling.
Sometimes, the more it is defined, it seems, the more it becomes some sort of impotent sentimentality, instead of the 'action' that it is and best described by action...
Quote:
If I could define what I believe, what Jesus and Paul "exhibited" as "Love", it was Self Sacrifice.
'Sacrifice' for others only, for the sake of Truth or what's right. And in that attempt, the person will do whatever it takes to save someone from damnation, save them from dangerous or erroneous beliefs or sin or help in a time of need ... despite the cost to themselves, whether it be laying down their life for them, losing their "reputation", being misunderstood, losing friendships, having them get mad at you, ostracize you, lose out financially, stand completely alone ... 'whatever' the loss ... Love must be an 'action' verb, and only 'self-less-Action-Sacrifice' - with others in mind Only, can even begin to describe The Love that is displayed in God's Word by Jesus Himself and his disciples.
The LONG list of Scriptures, are just to show, we have no option or choice or excuse NOT to love in His Way.
If we're [u]commanded[/u] to Love, that means "Just Choose to Do It" and 'then' He enables.
But as with everything else in this walk, we "choose" second by second what we'll do.
Our walk, as with our thoughts and beliefs, are what we choose, second by second.
So, as you touched on, Love is 'Doing' Love, not talking about it. To talk is easy. To do what HE would do, is another story. And none of us have attained [Phil 3], to complete Christ-likeness, in that regard. We press on by 'doing'... obeying the Scriptures above.
Bless ya Diane.
Annie |
|  2006/1/20 15:24 | | roadsign
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Posts: 3777
| | We need God's love to enable us to obey | | MeAgain, I did not shape my words very well. I meant to say that the long list of verses was wonderful! A reminder of what really is important!! I copied your verses. Thank you very much. It saves me lots of time. Now, Im wanting to make those verses come alive with a clear understanding of love.
Quote:
You said, we must "feel loved first" ... but that's not in God's Word, that's sort of Psychology.
Perhaps the word, feel conjures up thoughts of warm fuzzy kind of stuff. Instead, believe may be better - not merely an intellectual belief, but a deep inner knowing. This is not pop psychology. The Bible says it.
There is no fear in love.
But perfect love drives out fear,
because fear has to do with punishment.
The one who fears is not made perfect in love. 1 Jn 4:18
Why does one fear? It is because they dont know Christs love ie his forgiveness, mercy, grace. As a result condemnation lurks in the recesses of the conscience. This seems to be a reality for most Christians from what I see. They are certainly not made perfect in love. I deeply believe that the hypocrisy, gossip, pride, and any other sins can be traced to the person not having fully accepted Gods forgiveness and love. I say that from personal experience. My loving God worked in my heart for many years to teach me to grasp and trust his love. That is a long story, still in the making.
Also, all who do not know and trust in Gods loving protection and provision, go after it for themselves. No wonder we see self-centeredness, worry, greed, pride, shame, fear of man etc etc etc. No wonder love is deficient.
We love because he first loved us. 1 John 4:19
Quote:
because we have known love we are obligated to love others.
Philologos, it seems that you are assuming that every Christian knows love. But that doesnt appear to be reality. Some seem to have it, but most just dont, and I dont see how a sermon on loving others will help them change their deeply entrenched ways. They need to experience and know God. In fact, I feel that I could know Gods love a lot more than I do, and am convinced that as I grow in his love, I will love others better.
Diane
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Diane
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| | 2006/1/20 21:11 | Profile |
| | Re: We need God's love to enable us to obey | | His Diane, Thank you for responding and communicating with me. Good dialog.
I think I need to quote where my response came from first and combine it with this latest reply, then we can go on.
The quote I was referring to was: Quote:
Diane wrote:
Yet, I firmly believe that these verses will remain useless and limp until one truely knows love BY EXPERIENCE. One must first feel loved, believe that they are loved, and rest in love. Otherwise, the depth of love will always remain illusive.
Next this latter reply you wrote: Quote:
There is no fear in love.
But perfect love drives out fear,
because fear has to do with punishment.
The one who fears is not made perfect in love. 1 Jn 4:18
Why does one fear? It is because they dont know Christs love ie his forgiveness, mercy, grace. As a result condemnation lurks in the recesses of the conscience. This seems to be a reality for most Christians from what I see. They are certainly not made perfect in love. I deeply believe that the hypocrisy, gossip, pride, and any other sins can be traced to the person not having fully accepted Gods forgiveness and love.
Also, all who do not know and trust in Gods loving protection and provision, go after it for themselves. No wonder we see self-centeredness, worry, greed, pride, shame, fear of man etc etc etc. No wonder love is deficient.
According to God's Word, those sins, are not because "we haven't accepted God's love", but because we refused to Love God & others. And that's been God's 'Word' since Deuteronomy.
If you read both of John's Epistles, you get the point that even this verse that you quoted here is on "our part". "There is no fear [when we] love" is what John is conveying ... as he has in both of his epistles ... put the command on us to be the ones who love.
All that you've said above is "self" focused. We are told to be Christocentric ... our eyes always and only on Him, not self.
In other words ... (using the last few sentences from quote) ... a person could say, "Well, I'm self-centered because I don't 'trust in Gods loving protection and provision."
We're ALL self-centered, because our old man, the whole of our human nature is "self-centered". Even ministry can be "[u]self[/u]-centered".
We're self-centered by nature, and that is what the Lord asks us to "reckon dead" and "crucify" and to die to self, etc.
If it were possible to COMPLETELY "die to self", we'd be Just Like Him. Identical.
But His Commands have no "reasons why not".
The majority of those Verses posted on page one, are "Commands".
Now, I think what we need to talk about is "Faith".
Faith is another "action/verb", "We walk by faith.."
If God commands love, from Deut. on, (and they didn't even have the Indwelling of the Spirit to fulfull that Commandment with), then it appears, once again, it is on our part, 'without any exceptions'.
Wherever we see in the New Testament, that word "Commandment(s)", it always is pointing to the Two .... Love God ~ Love Others.
That is the fulfilling of the Law and the prophets, He said.
So, "By Faith", we "Obey" God's Word, and be willing to step out and obey His main and foremost Command, "to Love". {Again, an action word of selfless doing, not feelings necessarily}
Whenever we trust and obey, [b]then[/b] He acts upon our action. If we 'wait' for an experience, then we are not fulfilling His commands.
When we 'act' on His commands, that is when He will give us the experience of Him loving through us and with His Love and the more we act, the more "perfected in His [u]love[/u]" we become. By acting out the definition I gave in the post on top here.
It has nothing whatsoever to do with 'feelings'.
It is action. Self-less action for the good of others, period. We are told to "have" the mind of Christ, in that, He was ONLY 'others' minded.
We are told, that without our fulfilling these two Commandments, we will not be saved in the end ... if you look at all the verses on pg 1.
He doesn't command we "feel His Love" ... He says "For God so loved the world .... " and that's what we must act on 'by faith'.
Not wait for the "experiential", to obey the only two Commandments He's laid on us.
Alllll those sins you mentioned is our lack of Love for God and others, not our lack of feeling loved. The "Lack of feeling loved" is "Self" ... focus on self, calling God a liar, not having faith in His Words and what He did at Calvary, the wanting and demanding from God a "feeling" of love, besides what He did on the cross. It's all self, self, self. This is Psychology and not Biblical Reality.
I don't always "feel His love or forgiveness", but by faith I know I must obey, and He said, "Love". Whether I feel it or not ... it's been that way since the O.T..
"If you love me, you'll keep my Commandments" and those were The Two.
You're forming a Doctrine based on 'personal experience' or a feeling of 'human' mercy on those who have not been perfected in love, by Loving God & others themselves.
Read those passages intently, and you'll see, that once we see Love Incarnate on the Cross and except salvation because we've seen Him ... from then on we are responsible to Him to live His Two Commandments ... and by obedience, we are "made perfect in [u]love[/u]".
Our wills is what He's after ... so He fulfills His Word in us whenever we act in obedience to it. We take the first step by faith and obedience.
If we tell folks that they are not loving others or that they are sinning because they have not or do not feel loved, then we've just given them license to sin and their 'excuse' to not obey by faith, as God commands we do. We've turned their eyes to "self" and that is not good.
But denying self and taking up our cross and 'following' Him, is the only way to grow ... not looking for love within ourselves first.
The whole of our experience with God is based upon Faith alone, even our growth. God said He loves us, Obviously on the cross, so we act on and by faith alone - go 'outward' to others with that, and then He prunes so that we produce even more fruit. No fruit, He cuts down the tree.
I HAVE TO believe God Loves me 'by faith' in His Word alone. If I don't, Satan and my 'emotions' (or intense persecution or trials) can waver and throw me one day. This is human nature for most of us. But our whole walk and the future of it, depends on 'acting on faith alone'.
If you have an e-sword or Strong's, look up "Faith". One would be Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Another to look up is "obey" and then "Commandment(s)" ... (both plural and singular)
I hope I'm expressing this clearly enough. I know I'm not the best communicator, but I just know and trust His Word to speak for me much better.
That is All we have to form our views from.
His Love to you and thank you for sharing with me.
Annie
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| | 2006/1/21 4:27 | | roadsign
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Posts: 3777
| | love and faith | | Quote:
If we tell folks that they are not loving others or that they are sinning because they have not or do not feel loved, then we've just given them license to sin and their 'excuse' to not obey by faith,
No, no, never! We are not condoning sin by offering an excuse! Quite the contrary, we are helping others know their need: God himself!
There is a tendency to try to eradicate people's sin problems by commanding that fix up the old self. Just obey! However, the old self must be crucified. One must be clothed in Christ, by surrendering themsleves to God and his glorious love.
You can't beat a lame horse into "submission". It won't preform for you because it CAN'T. First you facilitate healing. This requres love with knowledge and UNDERSTANDING not a whip.
To reject the love of God is the greatest sin, and the root of all sin. You said it well by bringing up the word FAITH. For without faith it is impossible to please God. It takes faith to trust in God's love.
But here again, all my words are quite lame. They do little to change anyone from their ingrained pattern of life. Even for myself, I cannot change old ways without the tender work of Christ - through testings and trials. And that takes time.
We need to learn to be patient with those who have not yet been perfected in love (including ourselves) and trust that God can do it.
Diane
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Diane
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| | 2006/1/21 8:09 | Profile | Christinyou
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Posts: 3710
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| | Re: love and faith | | Quote:
"If God commands love, from Deut. on, (and they didn't even have the Indwelling of the Spirit to fulfull that Commandment with), then it appears, once again, it is on our part, 'without any exceptions'."
Quote:
"If we tell folks that they are not loving others or that they are sinning because they have not or do not feel loved, then we've just given them license to sin and their 'excuse' to not obey by faith,"
Whose Faith do we live by? Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Grace and Faith are not of ourselves. Then when did this Faith come?
Galatians 3:22-23 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
This Faith was not in the old testament law and old testament saints could not have this faith because it had not come. Now that this Faith of Jesus Christ has come, it is available because of Grace and Jesus Christ who has now revealed this Faith that we can be full of Christ with This revealed Faith unto New Testament Saints that are in Christ. This Faith is a Person not a thing to be grasped. I can not love except selfishly. Christ in me can love with out hypocrisy or self being interred into the equation. Just like the Faith that has come by Christ, it is now the Faith of Christ that gives us Grace and Love in His Person, now in us.
Galatians 3:23-25 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
So the Law unable to save us brought us to Christ who is able to save to the utmost, then we acquired the Faith that came by Him and the Love that is Him and in Him we now can have His Faith and His Love and that is what must come forth. All else is self indulgence and works on our part to attain perfection in ourselves. There is only perfection in Christ and none other.
Galatians 3:25-27 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
He is in us, let us put Him On. That we might rest in the warmth of His enveloping us in His Love that His Love might come forth through us.
What would Jesus do, and Do it as Jesus Did, are two of the biggest lies of the devil that we can we can fall into. The truth is, what is Jesus doing in us, and may we do it as He is doing it in us.
This is our Faith, His Faith.
Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Galatians 3:8-9 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
We are not justified by Abraham's faith but by the scripture foreseeing that God would justify us through the faith of Jesus Christ, which is now come, by Jesus Christ bringing it with Him. This is the Faith that saves and gives Grace, not human faith but Godly Faith in Christ Jesus.
In Christ: Phillip
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Phillip
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| | 2006/1/21 14:13 | Profile |
| | Re: | | Hi Diane,
All I will say about your reply is that ... there was no "whip" in my posts.
"If we "love" Him, we will keep His commandments."
Philip and Diane,
The less we use Scripture to prove our points, the further from Scripture we get.
Read the Commandments to "Love God and others" in the O.T. and then read Hebrews 11 and 12.
Thank you both.
Annie
Edited to add Chpt.12. I hesitated to at first, because of the "whip" comment.
Love you guys.
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| | 2006/1/21 14:30 | | Christinyou
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Posts: 3710
Ca.
| | Re: | | What love can find the true desire of our heart, but the Love of Christ in us. "Love one another as I have loved you." What love can I give brother's and sister's that really counts, praise God the Love of Christ in me, Who loved me first and gave Himself for me. Amen.
Love In Christ: Phillip
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| | 2006/1/21 20:42 | Profile |
| | Re: What is love | | MeAgain said
EDIT: Sorry, MeAgain - completely my error. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. You know, I should have realised you wouldn't have said that. :-P
[b]CORRECTION[/b]
Phillip said EDIT end.
Quote:
[b][u]What would Jesus do[/u], and [u]Do it as Jesus Did[/u], are two of the biggest lies of the devil that we can we can fall into[/b]. [color=0033CC]The truth is, what is Jesus doing in us, and may we do it as He is doing it in us[/color].
[b]This is our Faith, His Faith[/b].
Good word! 8-) |
| | 2006/1/21 21:31 | |
| | Re: | | Ha, dorcas,
Don't tell me you've got M.E.
Would you mind very much editing your post, cuz I didn't say that.
I wouldn't have said that.
:-D ;-) |
| | 2006/1/21 22:23 | | Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.
| | Re: | | Doing what Jesus did is impossible, being WHO Jesus is in me is what makes all things possible, "I can do all things through Christ". That is giving up ourselves and allowing Jesus to come forth in us as us. Again, the Person of Christ in us the Hope of Glory. Ephesians 2:4-9 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come He might shew the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
The Grace is certainly not of ourselves and the Faith of the Son of God is not of ourselves.
It is Christ in us being WHO Jesus is that gives us what we are to be doing.
In Christ: Phillip
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| | 2006/1/22 0:41 | Profile |
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