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philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: doctrinal differences???

Stevers

Quote:
Matthew 6:33 KJV "But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and His righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." NIV "But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well." "The kingdom of God" is changed to "his kingdom."


What doctrinal difference do you see between the 'kingdom of God' and 'his kingdom' when the previous verse has made it quite plain that we are talking about 'the Father'? Do you distinguish between 'the Father's kingdom' and the 'kingdom of God'? As with most of your posts this has nothing to do with doctrinal differences but comes simply from the fact that some Greek text editors do not accept 'of God' as part of the original. I do accept it as part of the original Greek text but I can't for the life of me see any "doctrinal difference".

Quote:
Matthew 8:29 KJV "And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?" NIV "'What do you want with us, Son of God?' they shouted. '"Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?'" NIV leaves out "Jesus, thou", degrading the power of the verse concerning His deity.

I am glad in some ways that you have produced this list. It shows clearly your obsession with tiny details and the extraordinary conclusions you draw from them. Your conclusions here are just nonsense.

Quote:
Matthew 9:18 KJV ". . there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him. ." NIV "While he was saying this, a ruler came and knelt before him and said, 'My daughter has just died. But come and put your hand on her, and she will live.'" NIV changes "worshipped" to "knelt before." Men kneel before their own kings and queens, but they do not worship them.

The Greek word 'worship' here is proskuneO which derives from the pronoun 'pros' meaning towards and the verb 'kuneO' which means to kiss; hence proskuneO means to make obeisance as when a servant kisses the hand of his master or when a conquered warrior kisses the hand of the his conqueror. This sense of 'kissing' is seen in “Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. [u]Kiss[/u] the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.” (Psa. 2:11-12, KJVS) ProskuneO is used in “The servant therefore fell down, and [u]worshipped[/u] him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.” (Matt. 18:26, KJVS) where the context makes it quite plain that the servant did not 'worship' his master as though he were a god. Vine's expository dictionary says [i]proskuneo "to make obeisance, do reverence to" (from pros, "towards," and kuneo, "to kiss"), is the most frequent word rendered "to worship." It is used of an act of homage or reverence.[/i] Consequently It is equally appropriate to translate the word 'worship' or 'did obeisance'. The NIV with its dynamic equivalence philosophy has sometimes opted for 'worship' and sometimes for 'knelt down'. What you are doing is importing your own understanding of 'worship' into the scriptures. This does not reveal a doctrinal difference but only your own misunderstanding of the word 'proskuneO'.

I won't go further other than to comment on the last line
Quote:
Hope that this is helpful!

No it is not helpful. It is an [u]un[/u]helpful mixture of ignorance and prejudice.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2006/1/19 6:14Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1132
Missouri

 Re:

I agree with Phillogos, this is not helpful. This is my favorite "doctrinal difference":

Quote:


Matthew 8:29
KJV "And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?"

NIV "'What do you want with us, Son of God?' they shouted. '"Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?'"

NIV leaves out "Jesus, thou", degrading the power of the verse concerning His deity.



This is just absurd. Stever, please pray about what you post because this is nonsense. You seem to have an agenda that is not helping or edifying the kingdom of God.

 2006/1/19 7:01Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

i also agree with Ron and Jaysaved on this. the Lord has me using the NIV, Good News and the KJV. while some things read differently among them i've not lost out on anything because the Spirit of God Himself is ministering what He hears from heaven. The preservation of the word of God in it's perfection is in that the Spirit of God does nto change and He is able to minister to us whatever may be lost in translation. without the SPirit of God even the perfect text is of no consequence.

Lord teach us to lean on you and not our own foolish understanding.AMEN.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2006/1/19 8:58Profile









 Re:

Stever posts:

There are many, many, many verses in the new versions that lend themselves to Roman Catholic Theology. For instance, from reading Hebrews 1:3in the KJV we know that Jesus "by himself purged our sins". There is no co-redemptrix. The NIV omits "by himself", allowing for the co-redemptrix of the Roman Ctholic Church- the "Virgin" Mary.

In Matthew 1:25 the King James says Jesus was "her firstborn son". She did have other Children, as other places in the bible indicate. The NIV and the NASB omit the word "firstborn", giving heed to the Roman Cathoic notion that Mary was a perpetual virgin. The NIV Old Testament capitalizes the word "Virgin", implying that it is a title for her, indicating her perpetual virginity. The King James always says, 'virgin" (lowercase "v").

One of the strangest changes in the newer versions is in Revelation 2:15. There Jesus talks about the "doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate." The NIV and other newer versions take out the phrase, "which thing I hate." Nico means "conquer" and "laity", as defined by Websters Dictionary, means people as distinguished from the Clergy, those not of a certain profession. Jesus hates the doctrine which replaces the New Testament Priesthood that includes all believers with a class of clergy or a class of professional scholars who attempt to "conquer" the common "people" with their credentials. Taking "which thing I hate" out of the Bible is just another move back to Rome.

In Luke 11:38, instead of saying "washed", some new versions introduce the term "ceremoniously washed", a very Roman Catholic rendering. In Luke 21:5, instead of "gifts", new versions add, "votive gifts", another Roman Catholic rendering. In Acts 12:15 instead of "angel" (as found in the KJV), newer versions have "guardian angel". Romans 15:16 talks about "ministering the gospel of God" in the KJV. New versions say, "ministering as a priest the gospel of God". They did the same thing in Luke 1:23. Instead of saying "ministration", they say "priestly service".

Throughout the New Testament, the new versions distort the linear verb tense that says, "we are saved". They have changed this to "we are being saved". This is identical to the suggestion in Catholic and Christian by Alan Schreck. If anyone asks the Cathoic if he is saed, or if a born-again Christian asks a Catholic, "Are you saved?" they should reply, "I am being saved." In other words, "I was saved when I was baptized as an infant, and I am working my way to heaven now, so I am being saved."

The King James is idiomatically correct. New versions give a very poor translation of the linear. Our salvation is not something that we work for; it is a gift from the Lord Jesus Christ. This Roman Catholic rendering in the newer versions, "are being saved" supports the fallacious notion of progressive salvation.

In Matthew 12:4, instead of the "shewbread", new version have the "consecrated bread". But in John 6:33 the King James says, "For the bread of God is HE which cometh down from heaven. " They have chaged that in some of the newer versions to "the bread of God is that which comes down from heven". This supports the Catholic notion of transubstantation--- believing that Jesus Christ is the host.
Hope this is helpful.

Can you imagine the Catholic who is away on a trip and did not bring his latin vulgate Bible with him. He picks up the latest Gideon Bible to read in his hotel room. This Gideon is one of the newer NIV translations. As he reads the above verses, quoted above, they do not reveal that much of the Catholic doctrine that he believes in is in error. Had he picked up the KJV, the difference would at the very least make him want to look deeper.

God bless,

Steve

 2006/1/19 12:16









 Re:

Quote:

JaySaved wrote:
I agree with Phillogos, this is not helpful. This is my favorite "doctrinal difference":

Quote:


Matthew 8:29
KJV "And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?"

NIV "'What do you want with us, Son of God?' they shouted. '"Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?'"

NIV leaves out "Jesus, thou", degrading the power of the verse concerning His deity.



This is just absurd. Stever, please pray about what you post because this is nonsense. You seem to have an agenda that is not helping or edifying the kingdom of God.



xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Stever responds:

Jesus Christ is the Son of God, the name above all names. It was not necessary to delete Jesus name from the verse. If they would of only deleted it once or twice, then of course there would be no problem. The problem is they have systematically deleted it throughout the New Testament.

That is the problem. Maybe not for the mature believer, because he knows that Jesus Christ is the name, but to the non-believer or new believer that picks up the NIV or newer versions to read for the first time, it is a great problem.

God bless,

Stever

 2006/1/19 12:26
TheophilusMD
Member



Joined: 2003/12/1
Posts: 124
New Jersey

 Re:

Quote:
Stever wrote:
Had he picked up the KJV, the difference would at the very least make him want to look deeper.



This isn't true for the Mormons who also use the KJV bible.


Quote:
Ironman wrote:
The preservation of the word of God in it's perfection is in that the Spirit of God does nto change and He is able to minister to us whatever may be lost in translation. without the SPirit of God even the perfect text is of no consequence.



I don't believe there's a perfect translation although I love the KJV but I agree with Ironman that this is how God preserves His word (imperfect translations nothwithstanding) - through the Holy Spirit!


_________________
Rey O.

 2006/1/19 12:30Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1132
Missouri

 Re:

If I were to apply Stever's logic, I could make the following statements:


I thought it would be quite educational to have first hand knowledge of the Doctrinal difference between the NIV, and the KJV (one of the "older" versions). Although this comparison is not exhaustive, I feel that we can keep it clean and simple and instructive by focusing on several books of the New Testament, that I will post one by one.


Let's first start in Colossians
Colossians 2:9
NIV "For in [b]Christ[/b] all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form".
KJV "For in [b]him[/b] dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily".
The KJV completely leaves out the word "Christ" and replaces it with the word "Him". We are saved through Jesus Christ, not Jesus Him! Serious doctrinal error!

Acts 4:25
NIV "You spoke [b]by the Holy Spirit[/b] through the mouth of your servant, our father David: " 'Why do the nations rage and the peoples plot in vain?
KJV "Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?".
The KJV completely takes out "by the Holy Spirit". By what did David speak? If we read the NIV, we know that it was the Holy Spirit who was used. The KJV attributes the words to David and does not credit the Holy Spirit in these verses. The KJV is denying the Holy Spirit being used to speak through David. Very, Very serious doctrinal error!!!!


Jude 1:25
NIV "to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, [b]through Jesus Christ our Lord[/b], before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.
KJV "To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen"
The KJV OMMITS the words "through Jesus Christ our Lord". This is a huge doctrinal error. The NIV correctly states that it is through Jesus Christ our Lord. The KJV has taken these words completely out of their text and therefore constitutes a serious doctrinal error.


Now, (back to reality) we all know that the KJV is not a part of a conspiracy to downgrade the deity of Christ or deny the existence of the Trinity. But, I wanted you all to see how easy it is to pick and choose and distort certain passages of the bible to try to prove a point. I think we all need to take a step back and stop bashing the new translations such as NIV, NASB, Holman, etc. and start seeing them as a translation of the word of God similar to the KJV.

 2006/1/19 12:45Profile









 Re:

Quote:

TheophilusMD wrote:
Quote:
Stever wrote:
Had he picked up the KJV, the difference would at the very least make him want to look deeper.



This isn't true for the Mormons who also use the KJV bible.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Stever's response:

That is true. I was a Mormon many years ago. The problem is the Mormon seldom reads his KJV Bible without the help of his "key to the scriptures"- the Book of Mormon. What he focues on are the corrupt work of Joseph Smith-The Book of Mormon, The Doctrines & Covenants, and the Peal of Great Price. Since the Mormon is not reedemed, he lacks the Holy Spirit to guide him. The longer he stays, the deeper into the maze he goes.

God bless,

Stever

 2006/1/19 12:54









 Re:

Stevers response to Jaysved:

Total missing names of Christ and Titles of Deity missing in the NASV and the NIV

Jesus 73 times in the NASV and 36 times in the NIV
Christ 43 times in the NASV and 44 times in the NIV
Lord 35 times in the NASV and 35 times in the NIV
God 33 times in the NASV and 31 times in the NIV
Other names missing= 30 in the NASV and 30 in the NIV

Total names missing in the NASV= 214,
Total names missing in the NIV= 176


God bless,

Stever


Quote:

JaySaved wrote:
If I were to apply Stever's logic, I could make the following statements:


I thought it would be quite educational to have first hand knowledge of the Doctrinal difference between the NIV, and the KJV (one of the "older" versions). Although this comparison is not exhaustive, I feel that we can keep it clean and simple and instructive by focusing on several books of the New Testament, that I will post one by one.


Let's first start in Colossians
Colossians 2:9
NIV "For in [b]Christ[/b] all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form".
KJV "For in [b]him[/b] dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily".
The KJV completely leaves out the word "Christ" and replaces it with the word "Him". We are saved through Jesus Christ, not Jesus Him! Serious doctrinal error!

Acts 4:25
NIV "You spoke [b]by the Holy Spirit[/b] through the mouth of your servant, our father David: " 'Why do the nations rage and the peoples plot in vain?
KJV "Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?".
The KJV completely takes out "by the Holy Spirit". By what did David speak? If we read the NIV, we know that it was the Holy Spirit who was used. The KJV attributes the words to David and does not credit the Holy Spirit in these verses. The KJV is denying the Holy Spirit being used to speak through David. Very, Very serious doctrinal error!!!!


Jude 1:25
NIV "to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, [b]through Jesus Christ our Lord[/b], before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.
KJV "To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen"
The KJV OMMITS the words "through Jesus Christ our Lord". This is a huge doctrinal error. The NIV correctly states that it is through Jesus Christ our Lord. The KJV has taken these words completely out of their text and therefore constitutes a serious doctrinal error.


Now, (back to reality) we all know that the KJV is not a part of a conspiracy to downgrade the deity of Christ or deny the existence of the Trinity. But, I wanted you all to see how easy it is to pick and choose and distort certain passages of the bible to try to prove a point. I think we all need to take a step back and stop bashing the new translations such as NIV, NASB, Holman, etc. and start seeing them as a translation of the word of God similar to the KJV.

 2006/1/19 13:01
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1132
Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Stever responds:

Jesus Christ is the Son of God, the name above all names. It was not necessary to delete Jesus name from the verse. If they would of only deleted it once or twice, then of course there would be no problem. The problem is they have systematically deleted it throughout the New Testament.

That is the problem. Maybe not for the mature believer, because he knows that Jesus Christ is the name, but to the non-believer or new believer that picks up the NIV or newer versions to read for the first time, it is a great problem.



Stever,
Here are the facts, you tell me if the NIV is truly the work of Satan because if the devil was behind the NIV translation, why did he miss:
- 531 instances of the word "Christ" in the NIV
- 1277 instances of the word "Jesus" in the NIV
Note: The NIV actually mentions the name Jesus 335 more times than KJV
- 132 times the words "Jesus Christ" are mentioned together in the NIV
- 101 times the words "Lord Jesus" are mentioned together in the NIV

According to biblegateway.com:

"Christ" appears:
In the NIV, 531 times
http://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=Christ&qs_version=31
In the KJV, 537 times
http://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=Christ&qs_version=9

"Jesus" appears:
In the NIV, 1277 times
http://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=Jesus&qs_version=31
In the KJV 942 times
http://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=Christ&qs_version=9

"Jesus Christ" appears:
In the NIV, 132 times
http://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=%22Jesus+Christ%22&qs_version=31
In the KJV, 187 times
http://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=%22Jesus+Christ%22&qs_version=9

"Lord Jesus" appears:
In the NIV, 101 times
http://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=%22Lord+Jesus%22&qs_version=31
In the KJV, 115 times
http://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=%22Lord+Jesus%22&qs_version=9

This is not a "systematic deletion throughout the New Testament."

 2006/1/19 13:15Profile





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