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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Your Bible- which one?

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 Your Bible- which one?

Meet Mr. Westcott & Mr. Hort, the two men responsible for creating ALL OF THE NEWER VERSIONS OF THE NEW TESTAMENT in 1888, including the one you are reading (if it is not the King James Bible):

Hort said, "I am a staunch sacerdotalist....the sacraments must be the center. The bond of a common divine life derived in Sacraments is the most comprehensive bond possible."

The Life of Hort Vol 1, pg. 99

The scheme of the two men:

"I have a sort of craving that our text should be cast upon the world before we deal with matters likely to brand us with suspicion. I mean, a text, issued by men already known for what will undoubtedly be treated as dangerous heresy will have great difficulty finding its way to regions which it might otherwise hope to reach, and whence it would be banished by subsequent alarms
...if only we spak our mind, we shall not be able to avoid giving offense to ..the miscalled orthodoxy of the day..Evangelicals seem to me perverted..There are, I fear still more serious differences between us on the subject of authority and especially the authority of the Bible..At present very many orthodox but rational men are being unawares acted upon by influences which will assuredly bear fruit in due time if the process is allowed to go on QUIETLY; but I cannot help fearing that a premature crisis would frighten back many into the merest traditionalism."
Life of Hort, Vol 1, pp 445, 421, 400

"But no doubt there was an element of mystery about Westcott. He took his turn preaching in chapel, but he dreaded and disliked the duty and he was quite inaudible"
Life of Westcott, Volume 1, p. 198

Westcott, in speaking of Revelation, admits, "On this , my views are perhaps extreme."
Westcott, Volume 1, p. 225

Referring to the Traditional Greek Text, then currently in use, Westcott says, "I am most anxious to provide something to REPLACE THEM. He admits the drastic changes he plans and calls it, "our proposed RECENSION of the New Testament (1852)
Westcott, Volume 1, p. 229

Then we have Mr. Hort:

"It was during these weeks with Mr. Westcott, who had come to see him, [Hort] at Umberslacle, that the plan of a joint REVISION of the text of the Greek Testament was first definitely agreed upon." (1853)
Hort, Vol 1, p. 240

"About this time Mr. Daniel Macmillan suggested to him [Hort] that he should take part in an interesting and comprehensive 'New Testament SCHEME. Hort was to edit the text in conjunction with Mr. Westcott, the latter was to be responsible for a commentary, and Lightfoot was to contribute a New Testament Grammar and Lexicon."
Hort, p.241

"We came to a distinct and positive understanding about our Greek Text and the details thereof. We still do not wish to be talked about but are going to work at once and hope we may have it out in a little more than a yeat. This of course gives good employment."
Hort, Vol. 1, p.264

"How certainly I should have been proclaimed a heretic"
Westcott Vol 1, p. 233

"Campbells book on the Atonement...unluckinly he knows nothing except Protestant theology."
Hort, Vol 1, p. 322

"Evangelicals seem to me perverted..There are, I fear, still more serious differences between us on the subject of authority, especially the authority of the Bible."
Hort Vol 1, p. 400

"If you make a decided conviction of the absolute infallibility of the New Testament a sine qua non for cooperation, I fear I could NOT JOIN YOU." 1860
Hort, Vol 1, p. 420

"I REJECT the word infallibility of Holy Scriptures overwhelmingly."
Westcott, Vol 1, p.207

"I am also glad that you take the same provisional ground as to infallibility that I do..In our rapid correcpondence about the New Testament, I have been forgetting Plato."
Horts letter to Lightfoot- Hort, Vol 1, p. 424

"English clergy are not compelled to maintain the absolute infallibility of the bible."
Hort, Vol 1, p. 454

"Dr. Westcott and myself have for about seventeen years been preparing a Greek text...we hope to have it out early next year."
Hort, Vol 2, p. 137


I surely hope that this is not only an eye opener to all, but also acts as a catalist to research this critical subject for yourself.

Westcott & Hort are responsible for the two most popular manual editions of the Greek text today. Nestles-Aland and U.B.S. (United Bible Society) really vary little frm the W-H (Westcott-Hort) text. Why is that? Westcott and Hort are generally credited with having furnished the death blow to the King James bible and the Greek Text which was used for the previous 1880 years and replacing it with the corrupt Alexandrian text that is behind all of the newer Bible Versions, and the Catholic Bible as well!

God bless,


[u][i][b]Westcott: "It is impossible to suppose that two beings distinct in essence could be equal in power (God & Jesus Christ). We find ourselves met by difficulty which belongs to the idea of begetting.."[/b][/i][/u]

 2006/1/17 2:06

Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3708

 Re: Your Bible- which one?

Hi Stever, Why the r on the end of your name?

Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

What is born of water and spirit, I believe that when Jesus changed the ceremonial washing water in the 6 clay pots is the water Jesus is referring to. What happens when we are born again? We are infused with the spirit of Christ, we are given the Holy Spirit by the Father and the Father Himself in Christ and Christ in the Father, "The Father and I are One," they Both with the Holy Spirit come to make their Abode in us and with us, right? What did Jesus use to signify His remembrance? He used wine as the emblem of His Blood and bread as His Body.

When Jesus changed the water of outside ceremonial cleansing, He was signifying what would happen when we were born again. What a first miracle to manifest, the old man of Romans 6 passes away and the miracle of new birth is shown by changing the old water of the cleansing of the law, for the outward only, to the new wine, the best, for the wedding feast of the Lamb, signified by the wedding in Cana, is our new birth, the old Law and blood of animals gone and the new birth in Christ the Lambs Blood is come. Old water into New Wine, The old man is dead and the new life in Christ is complete by the birth of Christ in each believer. Also think of new wine in old wine bottles, Christ cannot be put in old bodies, old spirits or old soul minds. That is why the body is quickened and the Spirit is now the Spirit of Christ and the Mind is Christs' and the Holy Spirit will be with and in us forever, our Teacher the Parakeet.

If Christ is in us and He is our life who our faith is being authored by, then the faith "OF" Jesus Christ is our all in all. It says that our faith is now the Faith of Christ in us the Hope of Glory. That takes it out of our hands and puts it in the Faith of Christ. The life we now live we live by the Faith of the Son of God. Gal 2:20

Now what this is all about. The King James Bible keeps this "Faith of Jesus Christ" and changing the word "of" to "in" by newer translations puts the Faith of Jesus Christ in our responsibility realm and if we just had the faith of a mustard seed not in a mustard seed, we could move mountains. Do we see what such a small change in two little words does to the Gospel of Christ in us the Hope of Glory. Westcott and Hort, did this "of" to "in", probably without even knowing what they were doing to the Salvation by and of Jesus Christ being Born Again in the Believer, but the liar from the beginning knew exactly what he was doing, surely it is you that is like God and it is your faith that will save you, not simply believing and receiving Christ Jesus as our new life and all that goes with working out our salvation with fear and trembling because of the Power that Has been Given us in Christ Jesus, that, Satan wants to keep hidden in our own old man that he can control like he did with the first Adam, with lies to the living soul, keeping us from the life giving Spirit of Christ in us the Hope of Glory.

This is the greatest attack on God's salvation of the Lamb and the truth of the Tree of Life in Christ Jesus. The basis for all translation that take away from the Faith, and the Salvation "OF" Christ.

In Christ: Phillip


 2006/1/17 4:25Profile


I am in agreement w/you both. But as a veteran of this much debated topic let me warn you that you will receive wrath from some on here. Brace yourselves. Through it all, it is worth whatever wrath one might receive from another if it means we know beyond a shadow of a doubt that we hold within our hands the true and trustworthy Word of God... and not some butchered immitation.


 2006/1/17 9:02

Joined: 2005/8/28
Posts: 48


okay back up a bit.
Forgive my ignorance here - What are you trying to say? That anything after the King James Version translation should not be used?


Michael Hancock

 2006/1/17 20:28Profile

Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3708


That is not what I am saying. I am saying just be aware of the subtleties of the lies of the Devil when it comes to the Word of God, and new translation are most vulnerable. If any translation takes away from the responsibility of God and Christ and the Holy Spirit for our salvation and puts any responsibility in our hands, it is a lie. All we must do is believe.

Revelation 22:17-19 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

John 3:16-19 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever(believeth) in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that (believeth) on him is not condemned: but he that (believeth not) is condemned already, because he hath not (believed) in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Our change comes by the living Word of God, which is Christ in us the Hope of Glory being the center of our life and The Holy Spirit revelation of who we are and by His Power what our new responsibility as son's of God has been given us. As sons' and daughters' we are a complete new race of God's People, of whom Jesus Christ is the Perfect Prototype, the first born of all new creatures in Christ, from whom all blessings flow.

2Cr 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Our new life and salvation as Christ creatures.

In Christ: Phillip


 2006/1/17 20:54Profile

Joined: 2005/1/6
Posts: 1910
Hemel Hempstead

 Lets Learn Hebrew and Greek !!!!

I am failing at trying to learn hebrew and going to be learning greek. We have got to realise that there is a Lord over all and he cares us finding out. I just need to go deeper into him!!

I normally give people the king james except people who find it difficulty reading which is most of us. I own a few bibles of my own I own the Jewish new testament and the whole Jewish Bible , I may disagree with stuff in there. I also own a KJV which I love failing to read.

The bigger question would be watch damage is illituracy in the western countries going to have on bible reading as it is getting worse!!
Half of the homeless guys cannot read and I so want to give them a bible. I have a friend who cannot read is there any teachers out there who know good books to teach adults to read!!!
Or ways

I have trouble getting my sister or even my brothers to read the bible because there is so much entertainment why read the bible when you can watch movies. I have problems reading the bible aswell. All I know is that I want to get as many KJV out as possible because they are cheap and I like the version

I want to know the hebrew so my bible knowledge lacks!! In the hebrew the grammar structure and the syntax are different. There are other differences.Can you pray that I can somehow learn Hebrew and teach my friends to read and write and pray that lituracy increases else the bible will be completly useless because there would be no comprehension of languages

Dominic Shiells

 2006/1/17 21:45Profile

Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK



That is not what I am saying. I am saying just be aware of the subtleties of the lies of the Devil when it comes to the Word of God, and new translation are most vulnerable. If any translation takes away from the responsibility of God and Christ and the Holy Spirit for our salvation and puts any responsibility in our hands, it is a lie. All we must do is believe.

What would you say about the KJV's constant bias towards hierarchical leadership in the church and its return to the anglican orthodoxy in the use of words like 'charity, confession, church'?

Ron Bailey

 2006/1/18 6:03Profile

 Re: Lets Learn Hebrew and Greek !!!!

I have a friend who cannot read is there any teachers out there who know good books to teach adults to read!!!

Hi Dominic,

The Government is bringing out new resources for adults to learn to read all the time.

You can find out for your friends where they can attend free classes (All the classes for basic English and Maths are FREE to anyone 16 or over.) and help them go and sign up. The teachers are specialists, and usually know something about dyslexia, which many people who cannot read, may have in some measure.

If you're going to teach them yourself, the best way is with children's resources - if you can make it fun. A good way to teach the alphabet is with play dough... Get them to make a set of capital letters and a set of matching small letters, [u]in the right order[/u] and they will never forget them. (This is good for dyslexics as well.)

When you teach the sounds each letter makes, do it [i]without[/i] putting a loud [b]UHH[/b] after each one. Some letters are very light - like 'p', while others are heavier.

After that, you can start mixing it up with two letters at at time. - Oh! and let them practise writing the letters too.

About a fifth of the English language is irregular - which means it is a mixture of words and spellings from all the different peoples who have come to live on these islands, going right back into distant history.

By the way, until the Bible was translated into English there was no standard spelling. Even William Tyndale's spelling varied on the same page! Spelling is the hardest thing, because it shows you understand everything about reading, already.

 2006/1/18 6:52


Steve posts:
Hello there, this Thursday morning. I thought it would be quite educational to have first hand knowledge of the Doctrinal difference between the King James, and the NIV (one of the "newer" versions). Although this comparison is not exhaustive, I feel that we can keep it clean and simple and instructive by focusing on several books of the New Testament, that I will post one by one.

The first is in the Books of Matthew:
Matthew 6:13 KJV "And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen." NIV "And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one." The NIV leaves out "For thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory for ever. Amen." Everything pertaining to His Kingdom and Deity is left out."

Matthew 6:33 KJV "But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and His righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you."
NIV "But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well." "The kingdom of God" is changed to "his kingdom."

Matthew 8:29 KJV "And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?" NIV "'What do you want with us, Son of God?' they shouted. '"Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?'" NIV leaves out "Jesus, thou", degrading the power of the verse concerning His deity.

Matthew 9:18 KJV ". . there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him. ." NIV "While he was saying this, a ruler came and knelt before him and said, 'My daughter has just died. But come and put your hand on her, and she will live.'" NIV changes "worshipped" to "knelt before." Men kneel before their own kings and queens, but they do not worship them.

Matthew 13:51 KJV "Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto Him, Yea, Lord." NIV "'Have you understood all these things?' Jesus asked. 'Yes,' they replied." NIV leaves out "Lord," again, leaving out His Lordship.

Matthew 16:20 KJV "Then charged He his disciples that they should tell no man that He was Jesus the Christ." NIV "Then he warned his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ." NIV leaves out "Jesus," as it does in numerous verses.

Matthew 20:20 KJV "Then came to him the mother of Zebedee's children with her sons, worshipping him. ." NIV "Then the mother of Zebedee's sons came to Jesus with her sons and, kneeling down, asked a favor of him." NIV again changes "worshipping" to "kneeling down."

Matthew 25:13 KJV "Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh." NIV "Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour." NIV leaves out "wherein the Son of man cometh."

Hope that this is helpful!


[u][b]Matthew 25:13 KJV "Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh." NIV "Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour." NIV leaves out "wherein the Son of man cometh."

 2006/1/19 4:49

Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia



philologos wrote:
What would you say about the KJV's constant bias towards hierarchical leadership in the church and its return to the anglican orthodoxy in the use of words like 'charity, confession, church'?


Is charity used to translate any word other than "agape"? I personally like the use of charity in 1 Cor 13. Charity implies a love that expects to receive nothing in return. Love, to me does not expect anything in return (notice the slight difference in phrase), but tends to be disappointed if it receives no return, while charity is disappointed when it is repayed by its benefactor. Charity is best expressed anonymously, while love wants its expression shouted from the roof tops.

Then there is the expression "charity case", which has negative connotations too in, in modern times. But consider what it means - "Someone who is unable to help themselves". Could the term "poor in spirit" describe a "charity case"?

Lord, help me to realise me need for your charity.

Aaron Ireland

 2006/1/19 5:36Profile

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