wanted to get some thoughts on the conditional love vs unconditional love debate. What do you think the bible means when it says God hates sinners?

SCRIPTURES:

"thou hatest all workers of iniquity." Ps. 5:5

"He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him." John 14:21

QUOTES

AUGUSTINE: (354-430, Bishop of Hippo): "For it may be that GOD HATES A PERSON to the degree more mildly, as not to destroy him, but whom He destroys HE HATES THE MORE EXCEEDINGLY, by how much He punisheth more severely. Now HE HATETH ALL WHO WORK INIQUITY: but all who speak lies He also destroys." (Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Vol.3, p.462)

JOHN WESLEY: (1703-1791, founder of Methodism): "But as for the wicked, GOD HATES THEM, and will feverishly punish them." (Explanatory Notes Upon the Old Testament, Vol.2, p.1639)

JONATHAN EDWARDS: "The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much in the same way one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect, over the fire, ABHORS YOU, and is dreadfully provoked: His wrath towards you burns like fire: He looks upon you as worthy of nothing else but to be cast into the fire: He is of purer eyes than to bear to have you in His sight: you are ten thousand times more ABOMINABLE in His sight than the most hateful venomous serpent is in ours." (Sinners In the Hands of an Angry God, July 8, 1741)

CHARLES G. FINNEY: "The very thing that God hates and disapproves is not the mere event - the thing done in distinction from the doer; but it is the doer himself. It grieves and displeases God that a rational moral agent under His government should array himself against his own God and Father, against all that is right and just in the universe. This is the thing that offends God. The sinner himself is the direct and only object of His anger." (The Guilt of Sin, pp.84-85)

F. DELITZSCH: "Of such (sinners - the foolish, and more especially the foolish boasters:)... SUCH MEN JEHOVAH HATES: for if He did not hate evil, His love would not be a holy love," ... "And His soul HATES the evildoer and him that delights in the violence of the strong against the weak. And the more intense this hatred, the more fearful will be the judgments in which it bursts forth." (Psalms, Vol.5, pp.122,189)

WILLIAM GURNALL: "“Thou hatest all workers of iniquity.’ For what God thinks of sin, see Deut vii. 22; Prov. vi.16; Rev. ii. 6,15; where he expresseth his detestation and hatred of it, from which hatred proceeds all those direful plagues and judgments thundered from the fiery mouth of his most holy law against it; nay, not only the work, but worker also of iniquity becomes the object of his hatred.”

DAVID CLARKSON: “Those whom the Lord hates must perish. But he hates impenitent sinners, “Thou hatest all workers of iniquity.” Now, who are so properly workers of iniquity as those who are so eager at it that they will not leave this work, though they be in danger to perish for it? Christ puts it out of doubt. The workers of iniquity must perish. Luke xiii. 27. Those whom the Lord will tear in his wrath must perish with a witness; but those whom he hates, he tears &c. Job xvi. 8. What more due to such impenitent sinners than hatred! What more proper than wrath, since they treasure up wrath? Rom ii. Will he entertain those in the bosom of love whom his soul hates? No; destruction is their portion. Prov. Xxi. 15. If all the curses of the law, all the threatening of the gospel, all the judgments in earth or in hell, will be the ruin of him, he must perish. If the Lord’s arm be strong enough to wound him dead, he must die. Psalms lxviii. 21…… Avoid all that Christ hates. If you love, approve, entertain that which is hateful to Christ, how can he love you? What is that which Christ hates? The psalmist (Psalm xlv. 7) tells us, making it one of Christ’s attributes, to hate wickedness…. as Christ hates iniquity, so the ‘workers of iniquity." You must not love them, so as to be intimate with them, delight in the company of evil doers, openly profane, scorners of godliness, obstructers of the power of it. 2 Cor. vi. 14-18. If you love so near relations to wicked men, Christ will have no relation to you. If you would have communion with Christ in sweet acts of love, you must have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, or those that act them.”

CHARLES H. SPURGEON: "Verse 5 - Note the singular opposition of the two sentences. GOD HATES THE WICKED, therefore in contrast He loves the righteous..." (The Treasury of David, Vol.2, pp.57-58)

AUGUSTUS HOPKINS STRONG: "There is no abstract sin that can be hated apart from the person in whom that sin is represented and embodies. It is the sinner who is punished, not the sin." (Systematic Theology, p.290f)

J. VERNON MCGEE: " If you think God is just lovey-dovey, you had better read this (Ps.11:5) and some of the other Psalms again. GOD HATES THE WICKED who hold onto their wickedness... I do not think God loves the devil, I think He hates him, and HE HATES THOSE WHO HAVE NO INTENTION OF TURNING TO GOD. Frankly, I do not like this distinction that I hear today, that 'God loves the sinner, but hates the sin.' God has loved you so much that He gave His Son to die for you, but if you persist in your sin, and continue in that sin, you are the enemy of God. And God is your enemy." (Psalms, Vol.1, p.72)

LEONARD RAVENHILL: "“I don’t believe there is a man on the whole TV that preaches salvation. They preach forgiveness. Forgiveness is not salvation. They point out “there’s a man in bed with some other mans wife in a Motel’. “Oh you know the Lord loves you just as you are.” Well then why get changed? Commit adultery as much as you like. He still loves you. Be a cheat, be a liar, be a thief, and be a failure. He still loves you. But there’s a scripture. Isn’t it the Psalms 7….where it says “God is angry with the wicked every day.” I heard somebody quote today “God loves you but hates your sin” that’s bunken. God hates you for committing the sin. Is God going to take your sins and judge them at the Judgment and leave you alone?”

LEONARD RAVENHILL: "the menace of many of our meetings is; we are trying to get people saved who don’t know their lost. ‘Come forward. The Lord loves you. The Lord loves you.’ The Lord hates you! Instead of a bumper stick ‘God loves you’, ‘God is angry with the wicked everyday’ (Ps 7:11) or ‘The wicked shall be turned into hell.’ (Ps 9:17)”

LAYMAN'S BIBLE COMMENTARY: "God's Hatred of Evildoers (Psalm 5:4-5)... God is not said to love the sinner and hate his sin; He is said to HATE BOTH THE SINNER AND HIS SIN. This sounds harsh to modern Christian ears, but there is truth here we dare not overlook."

MATTHEW HENRY'S COMMENTARY: "He is a holy God, and therefore HATES THEM (the sinner), and cannot endure to look upon them; the wicked, and him that loveth violence, HIS SOUL HATETH... Their pros-perity is far from being an evidence of God's love...their abuse of it does certainly make them objects of HIS HATRED. He hates nothing that He has made, yet HATES THOSE who have ill-made themselves."

THE INTERNATIONAL CRITICAL COMMENTARY: "But the wicked HIS SOUL DOTH HATE... Their treacherous preparations...are all observed by Yahweh, and HE HATES THEM FROM HIS VERY SOUL. The soul is the seat of the passion of anger and hatred, for God as well as for man...therefore, Yahweh is trying the righteous man, and HATING His deadly enemies..."

THE INTERPRETER'S BIBLE: "In vs. 5 the verb 'trieth' has its object both the righteous and the wicked, and means no more that the Lord watchfully observes them both and estimates them for what they are, HATING THE LATTER and ultimately pouring His destruction upon them."

BROADMAN BIBLE COMMENTARY: "Yahweh takes no pleasure in wickedness and does not dwell with evil (or evil men). Insolent, boasting people have no position at all in the presence of Yahweh, who HATES ALL 'DOERS OF SIN.' Indeed, Yahweh will annihilate those who speak deception: HE DETESTS THE MAN OF BLOODY DEEDS AND DECEITS."

Jesse, this is an excellent post. Having been brought up on 'the God hates the sin not the sinner' maxim, the implications of Jesus death make MUCH more sense, in the context of all the quotes you've found. [b]Unequivocally[/b], unless a person is willing to be baptised into His death, there [b]is no hope[/b] for his soul to be saved. THIS is God's unconditional love then, that Jesus died for us [u]while[/u] we were yet sinners.

Romans 1
28 And even as [b]they did not [u]like[/u] to retain God[/b] in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, [b]to do those things[/b] which are not convenient;
29 [u]Being [b]filled[/b] with [b]all[/b] unrighteousness[/u]... 32 [b]Who [u]knowing the judgment of God[/u], that they which [u]commit such things are worthy of death[/u], not only do the same, but [u]have pleasure in them that do them[/u][/b].

It seems clear from scripture that even the man who is sinning (Rom 1:28), or, who is demon possessed (Mark 5:6), has a choice.

God loves the sinner and thus wants them to be changed.

If he hates them (if you are using the word hate as the opposite of love, which I would contend with) then why send Christ to die for them?

I think this is an honest question, "then why send Christ to die for them?"

Romans 5:6 "For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly."

Romans 5:8-11 "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement."

This is something that I struggle with.Does God only love us when were doing what He wants? Does He hate us when we screw up? Since christians aren't supposed to judge themselves as Paul said "I judge not mine own self," how are we to know that what were "doing for the Lord," is really what he wants? What if were operating in the flesh and don't realize it? What if we really just want to promote ourselves? How do you know that your life is pleasing to the Lord? Do we just hope that at the end of the road God will say well done? Is there any way of knowing if we are in the will of the Lord or not? If were not in the will of the Lord does He hate us? What if your life is stubble and you thought it was gold? Do we have to spend our lifetime trying to win His approval?How do you win God's approval? How are we as sinners saved by grace supposed to know what is acceptable ALL the time? Do you just go along life in your merry way hoping that God will say well done at the end of the road?

I guess the real prolem I have is that since we as sheep are so prone to error, how can we know that God loves us...not just some of the time?

I guess what Im really talking about is how to know if were in the will of God.

Ive learned alot through Watchman Nee but alot of it troubles me.Maybe thats my fault.

He talks about the principle of rebellion and how when christians operate in the flesh and have impure motives when they are supposed to be serving the Lord that they get no reward.He says its because of the principle of rebellion which satan loves.Than he goes on to say that if the principle of satan is there (which is rebellion) than there can be no fruit.

Take example some preacher who gets up in the pulpit motivated by pride and the love of money, even though he is preaching against sin no fruit will come from his preaching because the principle of rebellion is there.

Maybe this is for another thread on how to know if your in the will of God or not.

I have 5 kids and work part time and I want to serve the Lord in some way but sometimes I think I want to do it to win His approval.Ive got that whole works mentality.I hate that!!! I just want to be sure that whatever I do its motivated by love and not works.

Maybe I should move this to another thread.

Sorry! Don't mind me. :)