| Poster | Thread | tacklebox
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Roanoke Rapids, NC
| | Re: | | God the Father is the source of all life - we see that in Genesis. He gave His Son not only the power to give life, but eternal life. Let's look at John Chapter 5:
Quote:
21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.
22 For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son,
23 that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
So it is Christ who will judge us, not the Father. Through His judgments, He will issue acceptace (life eternal) or condemnation (everlasting death):
Quote:
24 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,
27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 and come forththose who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
This passage implies that all remain in their graves until called by Christ. Some argue that there are two resurections that are a thousand years apart, citing Rev. 20:5: "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."
About Christ telling the thief, ""TODAY YOU WILL BE WITH ME IN PARADISE" - I think Christ was reassuring the man of hope, not preaching a sermon. Too often we overlook Christ's clear teachings when trying to interpret his cries from the cross. So many think that Christ was confused why His Father forsook Him on the cross by His cry, "My God, My God, Why hast Thou forsaken Me!?" - When in fact, Christ was quoting Scripture (Psalm 22.) If you read the rest of Psalm 22, you will see David prophesize about the suffering death of the Christ.
Jesus was talking of "paradise", the same word used in Revelation 2:7:
"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God."
Jesus was using the term "today" not literally, for that would conflict with His clear teaching that judgment (which preceeds the giving of eternal life or death) would come on the last day. Remember, to God a day is like a thousand years (2 Peter 3:8), and I believe when we step into eternity, the perception of time ceases. I think the Apostle Paul will perceive appearing at the judgment the same time you and I will.
There are parts of Scripture that people try to use to indicate that saints are already with God, such as the Mount of Transfirguation, where Moses and Elijah appeared. But the Bible tells us that no one ever found either prophet's body, although Satan and the archangel Michael did fight over Moses' body, as Jude tells us. Many think Moses was raptured, and it is apparent that Elijah was.
The fact that Samuel appeared to Saul after he died doesn't suggest that saints go straight to heaven after death, either. Samuel was allowed by God to be disturbed (stray from a normal course) to deliver a final condemnation of Saul. This was an exception, not the norm.
So, can we say of the dead in Christ, "Well, they are in a better place now."? Considering that OUR perception of time doesn't matter concerning THEM, I think we can still say the above. To THEM, their perception of time doesn't remain constant with ours, so to them, they might already be approaching the throne of heaven, while here on earth it might be a millineum away.
-Chris
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Christopher Wright
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|  2006/1/10 12:55 | Profile | Graftedbranc
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Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619
| | Re: | | "Because the Lord Himself, with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, will decend from heaven, and the dead in Christ shall rise first."
This verse says, "The dead in Christ shall rise" it does not say, "the dead in Christ will decend from heaven, be reunited with their bodies and then rise to meet the Lord in the air."
The souls of the dead are in Paradies, which is in hades. Paradies is the portion of hades (the abode of the dead) where the souls of the just remain until the resurrection.
Paradies is not in heaven, Paul in 2 cor said, two things, "I was caught away into the third heaven" and also "I was caught away into Paradise'. Two distinct places.
The Lord is Present within us now (if we are believers.) And when we die we will be present with the Lord to a greater degree. He indwells us and will not cease to indwell us when we die but we will be free from the flesh and able to enjoy Him completely, though awaiting the "redemption of our body and it's transfiguration into a body like unto His body of Glory.
When we are clothed with our resurrected glorified body it will be permeated with the Divine Life and will not be the fallen flesh. It will be like the Lord's resurrection body. It is sown in dishoner, but raised in glory.
Graftedbranch
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| | 2006/1/10 14:53 | Profile | tacklebox
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Joined: 2005/10/8
Posts: 196
Roanoke Rapids, NC
| | Re: | | So Jesus went to this "holding cell of the just" when He died? (referencing what He said to the thief)
-Chris
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Christopher Wright
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| | 2006/1/10 16:21 | Profile | Graftedbranc
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Posts: 619
| | Re: | | Quote:
So Jesus went to this "holding cell of the just" when He died? (referencing what He said to the thief)
No one said anything concerning a "cell". But rather the abode of the dead. Christ decended into Hades.
Conserning the resurrection of Christ in Acts 2:31,32 Peter says:
"He (David), seeing this beforehand, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that neither was He abandoned to Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption,. This Jesus God has raised up, of which we all are witnesses."
The fact of His not "being abandoned to Hades" is seen in the resurrection. He went there but was not left there.
In Mathew 12:24 the Lord Jesus said, "For just as Johah was in the belly of the great fish three days and three nights, so will the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights."
Ephesians 4:9 says:
Now this, "He ascended", what is it except that He also decended into the lower parts of the earth?"
Here Paul equates, "the heart of the earth" to "the lower parts of the earth.". This phrase is used in Psalm 63:9 which says that those who are given over to the power of the sword, "Go into the lower parts of the earth".
These passages plainly tell us that after the Lord's death and before His resurrection, His body was buried in the earth, but His spirit decended to Hades.
but Hades is not "hell" as the Authorised KJ translates. It is the place of the dead. And "Paradise" or "Abraham's bossom" is in Hades.
Graftedbranch
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| | 2006/1/10 17:15 | Profile | tacklebox
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Joined: 2005/10/8
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Roanoke Rapids, NC
| | Re: | | Okay, I have always wondered this:
If Jesus paid our fine by his suffering death, but still went to Paradise for three days, then that means our fine for breaking God's laws is physical death only.
What about the spiritual death? - "The soul that sins, it shall die" -Ezekiel 18:4
When did Jesus pay our SPIRITUAL fine? When did His soul die (eternal death = hell)?
I am only reasoning here, etertaining thoughts, not trying to teach or spread any doctrine. I think I know the answer already, but wanted to bounce this off you guys to see what you thought...
-Chris
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Christopher Wright
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| | 2006/1/10 18:17 | Profile | Graftedbranc
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Posts: 619
| | Re: Atonement | | Quote:
When did Jesus pay our SPIRITUAL fine? When did His soul die (eternal death = hell)?
The Lord Jesus on the Cross said: "My God, My God, why has thou forsaken Me". following this He said, "It is finished".
The Lord suffered separation from the Father. This was "spiritual death" to Him. But Eternal Redemption was accomplished on the Cross. And His Blood has Eternal efficacy by virtue of His Divinity.
Every reference to redemption is tied in with the Cross. Christ died on the Cross for a propitiation for our sins.
God made Him who knew no sin to become sin on our behalf, that we might become the rightousness of God in Him.
His death on the Cross was sufficient.
Graftedbranch |
| | 2006/1/10 18:48 | Profile |
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