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| | Re: | | Quote:
dorcas wrote:
Quote:
Is the "coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together with him" talking about the rapture of believers mentioned in 1 Thessalonians
OR
the Second Coming of Christ after the Great Tribulation
OR
Both because they both happen at the same time?
I believe this is referring to His first coming, which culminated in Pentecost, enabling our 'gathering together unto Him'.
There is a similar impression being brought to my spirit, but, of us being gathered into Him unto the Father, by these earlier verses:
(Young's Literal Translation) 1 Thess 3
11 And our God and Father Himself, and our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way unto you,
12 and you the Lord cause to increase and to abound in the love to one another, and to all, even as we also to you,
13 [b]to the establishing your hearts blameless in sanctification [u]before our God and Father, in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ[/u][/b] with all His saints.
Now read this:
(Young) 2 Thessalonians 2
1 And we ask you, brethren, [b]in regard to the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ, and of our gathering together unto him[/b],
2 that ye be not quickly shaken in mind, nor be troubled, neither through spirit, neither through word, neither through letters as through us, as that the day of Christ hath arrived;
3 let not any one deceive you in any manner, because--if the falling away may not come first, and the man of sin be revealed--the son of the destruction,
4 who is opposing and is raising himself up above all called God or worshipped, so that he in the sanctuary of God as God hath sat down, shewing himself off that he is God--[the day doth not come].
5 Do ye not remember that, being yet with you, these things I said to you?
In other words, nothing, in either case, to do with our being caught up in the air, or, His second coming, if these are two distinct events - which I doubt.
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Stever's response:
Have you figured out what your own "escatology" is? We seem to clash everytime this issue of the rapture manifests itself.
THREE PROMINENT VIEWS OF THE END TIMES
1) Premillennial
The premillennial view suggests that the Second Coming will occur before Christ reigns during a literal 1,000-year Millennium. It is the view portrayed in Left Behind. It was the predominant view of the early church and became prominent once again in the last century. It is the most literal interpretation of passages from Daniel and Revelation.
An additional element important to this view is the role and timing of the Rapturethe separate resurrection of believers. Left Behind portrays a pretribulation rapture view, where the rapture occurs before the Tribulation begins. Others see it occurring in the middle or end of the Tribulation.
While there are variations in detail (mostly over the exact order and timing of events), most evangelical Christians today hold a premillennial view. It is the view promoted by Tim LaHaye, Mark Hitchcock, and Brian Coffey, all of whom have written books on prophecy for Tyndale House, the publishers of the Left Behind series.
2) Amillennial
As time passed and Christ did not return, scholars and church leaders began looking at other interpretations. Amillennialism is the most prominent of these. It is a view widely credited to St. Augustine, who lived from A.D. 354-430.
While people holding this view believe that Christ will literally return, they see as SYMBOLIC all of the details that the premillennial view interprets literally (rapture, tribulation, Armageddon, etc.), rolling them all into a millennial age. During this period, CHRIST DOES NOT REIGN WITH A PHYSICAL PRESENCE ON EARTH, BUT BUILDS THE CHURCH THROUGH HIS INFLUENCE IN THE LIVES OF CHRISTIANS. It is a time of continued struggle between good and evil until Christ's return ushers in the final judgment before eternity. The Roman Catholic Church and major "mainline" Protestant denominations hold this view today.
3) Postmillennial
As the Industrial Revolution transformed the world and advanced human progress immensely in the 18th and 19th Centuries, Postmillennialism emerged. This view is similar to Amillennialism, except that it sees steady human progress over evil, progressively leading to a Christianized world, which sets the stage for Christ's return. Social and economic reforms as well as evangelism are important parts of ushering in this "golden age" of spiritual development.
Even with a horrendous Civil War in America and other conflicts scattered across the globe in the 19th century, the sense of human progress was so strong that even World War Iin which over a million people lost their livescame to be known as the "the war to end all wars." The world moved ahead into a decade of pleasure and renewed technological progress in the 1920's.
Then the Great Depression and economic problems around the world led to radical political change. The world was on the march toward another global conflict. While considerable technological progress took place in the 20th century, the blow of two world wars was enough to remove postmillennialism from its place of prominence.
Which one of the three are you? Do you know what "camp" you are in?
God bless,
Stever
Is it Amillennial or post Millennial?
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|  2006/1/16 2:15 | |
| | Re: | | hmm, i learned something today.
I'm not really a 'post-millenialist'. I thought I was.
Hmm, Jesus is coming back there is no 1A 1B or nothing. He comes in ONE DAY. It's funny that Heb.6:2 refers this as a 'basic' of the faith. I haven't studied it enough to know the simplisity of it yet. |
| | 2006/1/16 3:02 | |
| | Re: | | Quote:
YeshuaIsMyGd wrote:
hmm, i learned something today.
I'm not really a 'post-millenialist'. I thought I was.
Hmm, Jesus is coming back there is no 1A 1B or nothing. He comes in ONE DAY. It's funny that Heb.6:2 refers this as a 'basic' of the faith. I haven't studied it enough to know the simplisity of it yet.
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Stever's response:
Have you ever considered that when Jesus comes to get His saints, He does not come back and place His feet on the Mount of Olives? He comes to get His saints in the air, and never returns to the earth at that time.
1 Thes 4:17 says: "17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
When he comes back WITH His saints, at the end of the Tribulation (7 years later) He places His feet on the mount of olives, thus actually returning to the earth.
If the rapture, referred to in Thessalonians & Corinthians, occured at the end of the Tribulation, then Christ would not need to separate the sheep from the goats- they already would have been separated by the process of the rapture itself.
interesting?
Some Scripture:
Zech 14: 5. And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, AND ALL THE SAINTS WITH THEE.
6. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7. But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8. And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9. And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.
10. All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
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There are other Bible verses that relate to this, but what I have found is that once a believer comes to a conclusion in regards to end time events, those conclusions are never changed, regardless of the proof text from the Scripture.
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God bless,
Stever |
| | 2006/1/16 12:37 | |
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