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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : 2 Thessalonians 2:1-5

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JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 2 Thessalonians 2:1-5

I have been doing some study on these verses and I have been doing much praying over them. I would like to get some opinions from my brothers here at SI.

2 Thessalonians 2
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?



Question:
Is the "coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together with him" talking about the rapture of believers mentioned in 1 Thessalonians
OR
the Second Coming of Christ after the Great Tribulation
OR
Both because they both happen at the same time?

Thanks and God Bless.


 2006/1/4 15:16Profile
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re: 2 Thessalonians 2:1-5

I would think that the coming of our Lord and the gathering together are two seperate events. Why would there be a distiction if they were not?


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Josh Parsley

 2006/1/4 16:40Profile
Graftedbranc
Member



Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re: 2 Thessalonians 2:1-5

Quote:
Is the "coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together with him" talking about the rapture of believers mentioned in 1 Thessalonians OR the Second Coming of Christ after the Great Tribulation OR Both because they both happen at the same time?



The book of Revelation does not show is only one rapture but several. There is the rapture of the first fruits (those who are ripe), the general harvest (at the end of the tribulation) and the rapture of the Man Child (the 144,000 overcommers)to the throne of God to cast out Satan from the heavens.

The Woman (the Church who gave birth to the Manchild (the overcommers) is carried away into the wilderness to be nourished until the end of the tribulation at which time she is also raptured in the general harvest.

The Lord's comming (His parusis or Presence) into the air preceeds all these events but His Judgement (the Day of the Lord) is at the end of the great tribulation.

Not every believer will be raptured before the tribulation but only those who are ripe and mature. To these He will come "as a thief in the night" to steal away those who are of value.

The rest, will be matured through sufferings till the general harvest at the end of the tribulation.

Rapture is based on maturity in Life, not on a time scale. Christ will only rapture His matured one's.

Paul was assured of salvation but in Philippians 3 he says, "That I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings being conformed to His death that I may attain to the "out resurrection" from the dead. Not that I have already obtained or have already been perfected, but I press on that I might lay hold..."

Paul considered the "Out resurrection" something He had not yet attained or laid hold of. And one which required his perfecting.

Later, at the end of Paul's life and ministry as recorded in 2 Timothy, He had the assurance that he, "Had finished his course, fought the good fight, and kept the faith", and therefore he had laid up for him a crown of rightousness which the Lord would give Him at His appearing, and not only for him but for all those who , "love His appearing".

I tell you not every believer "loves His appearing" because many have their heart on something on the earth. Many say, 'but I hope He does not come before I get to do this or that, or before I obtain my degree, or before I achieve this or that goal, or find a wife, or whatever. They do not "love His appearing".

Some even love their "ministry" more than the Lord's appearing. As Watchman Nee says, to these the Lord will say, "OK, keep your ministry".

This is a missing element in most of today's eschatologies.

Graftedbranch

 2006/1/4 17:13Profile
bseib4jc
Member



Joined: 2006/1/1
Posts: 3
minnesota, usa

 Re: 2 Thessalonians 2:1-5

Hi everyone, I'm fairly new to this forum. I had the privelage of hearing Hilton Sutton teach on this subject last april. It was excellent and very informative. The revelation he has aquired over 50 plus years of studying the scriptures is unequalled. To find out more on this, do a search for His ministry and take a look for yourself. You will be blessed by his ministry as I was. God bless you all and keep sharing the "GOOD NEWS OF JESUS CHRIST" with all your friends and relatives, as well as those you work with. I believe everyone whose name is written in the Lambs book of life will be raptured. (which by the way was the 4th resurrection, w/3 more to come) :-D


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butch

 2006/1/9 21:25Profile









 Re: 2 Thessalonians 2:1-5

Quote:
Is the "coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together with him" talking about the rapture of believers mentioned in 1 Thessalonians
OR
the Second Coming of Christ after the Great Tribulation
OR
Both because they both happen at the same time?

I believe this is referring to His first coming, which culminated in Pentecost, enabling our 'gathering together unto Him'.

There is a similar impression being brought to my spirit, but, of us being gathered into Him unto the Father, by these earlier verses:

(Young's Literal Translation) 1 Thess 3
11 And our God and Father Himself, and our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way unto you,
12 and you the Lord cause to increase and to abound in the love to one another, and to all, even as we also to you,
13 [b]to the establishing your hearts blameless in sanctification [u]before our God and Father, in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ[/u][/b] with all His saints.

Now read this:
(Young) 2 Thessalonians 2
1 And we ask you, brethren, [b]in regard to the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ, and of our gathering together unto him[/b],
2 that ye be not quickly shaken in mind, nor be troubled, neither through spirit, neither through word, neither through letters as through us, as that the day of Christ hath arrived;
3 let not any one deceive you in any manner, because--if the falling away may not come first, and the man of sin be revealed--the son of the destruction,
4 who is opposing and is raising himself up above all called God or worshipped, so that he in the sanctuary of God as God hath sat down, shewing himself off that he is God--[the day doth not come].
5 Do ye not remember that, being yet with you, these things I said to you?

In other words, nothing, in either case, to do with our being caught up in the air, or, His second coming, if these are two distinct events - which I doubt.

 2006/1/9 23:30
Corneliu
Member



Joined: 2004/1/6
Posts: 61


 Re: 2 Thessalonians 2:1-5

1. Paul is speaking about the events like they are future events.

2.When listing events that take place in time, human mind enumerates them in the order they hapen.Not complicating things, he did it in this normal/simple way, remember that he was not writing to teologens.

3. I belive they are one event because Paul says in verse 3 : "that day shall not come, except", so he pust them as one event that he calls "that day".

4. And "that day" in which He will come and we will gather togehter with him "shall not come except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed": so our gethering with him will not take place before the antichrist is revealed.

God bless you with the rest of your study.


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Cornelius

 2006/1/10 1:01Profile









 Re:

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=6767&forum=36#52049


God Bless you also.

;-)

 2006/1/10 2:30
lastblast
Member



Joined: 2004/10/16
Posts: 528
Michigan

 Re:

Yes, I heard him speak a bit at a church I attended about 8 years ago. Some of my friends were winking at me because they knew I was one of the only posties in that congregation and didn't agree with Sutton's conclusions. He may have studied for 50 years, but I believe he is very wrong in his final conclusions........

Btw, I too started out as a pre-tribber and like savedJay started having scriptures POP at me, which led to intense study-----leading to my present belief of only 1 coming of Jesus for His Body (to reunite the dead in Christ with those who are alive and remaining----at His second Glorious coming in power and judgment). Blessings in Him, Cindy


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Cindy

 2006/1/10 10:17Profile
lastblast
Member



Joined: 2004/10/16
Posts: 528
Michigan

 Re:

Quote:
I belive they are one event because Paul says in verse 3 : "that day shall not come, except", so he pust them as one event that he calls "that day".



Amen. While some try to say Paul is speaking of two different events, by his own wording we can see that Paul is speaking of what happens on that ONE DAY (He comes and we are gathered) AFTER the apostasy and the revealing of the man of sin. Blessings as you study Jay! In Him, Cindy


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Cindy

 2006/1/10 10:20Profile
Graftedbranc
Member



Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
I believe this is referring to His first coming, which culminated in Pentecost, enabling our 'gathering together unto Him'.



1 Thess. 4:15-17:

"For this I say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are living, who are left remaining unto the coming of the Lord, shall by no means preceed those who have fallen asleep.

Because the Lord Himself, with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, will decend from heaven, and the dead in Christ shall rise first.

Then we who are living, who are left remaining, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall be always with the Lord."

I don't believe it could be any clearer. One has to work very hard to nullify these verses.

Graftecbranch

 2006/1/10 14:17Profile





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