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Joined: 2004/1/17
Posts: 219

 Brownsville, Heretics, and so on...

Once again I am not one bit disappointed by the abundance of "righteous" discernment and "watchman on the wall", attitudes which seem to prevail on this site. Many of the posts in response the recent post "Brownsville Revival: the simple truth" only confirmed this. When I first came to this site I thought that I would find a group of likeminded people - in love with Jesus, and Desperate for Revival. I soon found that as soon as I mentioned my background (a graduate of Brownsville Revival School of Ministry) my love for God, hunger for Him, passion for revival, and any fruit in my present ministry was called into question. At first I took offense and typed out lengthy posts using scripture, history as well as quotes from past revival leaders which we all look up to. Yet to no avail - these are all simply ignored and met with a haughty, irrational and biased - "Brownsville is heresy - Awaken the watchmen - the church is deceived and I'm here to tell you about it!"
So I simply decided to rest my case and resolved that in heaven we will both bow before the same king and the arguing will finally cease! Praise God!
I say to you though my friends - TackleBox in particular...
A dear brother or sister going by the name "SJ" posted you their testimony as to how God changed their life at Brownsville. Yet his post (unless I missed it) was almost completely disregarded and instead we squabbled about manifestations, as well as some superfluous references to Toronto's fruit being widespread adultery and split churches (to which I reply: study the first Great Awakening for goodness sake - Johnathon Edwards preaching resulted in suicide once! Is he a heretic? Split churches? and then some...) Come on my dear brothers and sisters! We will ignore the testimony of a changed life and instead base our opinions on videos produced by already biased cessationist brothers and sisters! It is certainly time we grew up! I question if some of us would recognize real revival if it shook hands with us!
Please friends I do not mean to chime in with the critics by presenting my own criticism...I am simply sick and tired of false discernment cloaking itself in righteousness - criticizing brothers and sisters who are actually out doing the work of the Kingdom while we sit behind our monitors typing away!
If you have such a discerning gift then please find a place in the local church and give your keyboard a break! Also if Brownsville was such a heretical botching of the truth and misrepresentation of real revival - then we could have used your keen insight into spiritual matters when the revival was still an issue! (isn't there something in scripture about a word in DUE SEASON? - forgive my sarcasm) I certainly hope some of you will at least THINK about this before passing it off as more heresy - but alas I foresee very few replies to this post - although I do expect the occasional "PURIFY THE TEMPLE! REMNANT UNITE AND ROOT OUT THE HERETICS" type of reply - which is "a" typical to the pharisaical heart.
For an extremely good look at this from a scholar and active participant in the Revival read Dr. Michael Brown's "Let No One Deceive You" reprinted as "The Revival Answer Book".


 2005/12/20 15:05Profile

Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Brownsville, Heretics, and so on...


I want to both agree and disagree. A couple of disenting views do not make a majority as to this forum, that's an unfair characterization I believe. At the same time I also have learned much about many things here, one of them is Ravenhill-esqe notion that "An experience is at the mercy of an argument" taken in it's rightful place. There should be a fair amount of give and take in these things...

Also, it might be better to have this in keeping with the rest of the ongoing thread, even though I can understand your wanting to seperate it out for emphesis sake.

Lastly, how much of this has been covered in past threads? At some point there seems to be an unhealthy bitterness that creeps in, that's to both sides.

Mike Balog

 2005/12/20 15:30Profile

Joined: 2005/10/8
Posts: 196
Roanoke Rapids, NC

 Re: Brownsville, Heretics, and so on...


The post I started on Brownsville didn't begin with me wanting to bash it - at the time I simply had been talking a lot about revival, and this guy who had been there told me to check it out. At the time of posting, I still didn't know much, but among the first things I heard about it were troubling.
I only wanted to arrive at the truth of the matter. That's all. I wanted to keep it simple and had no idea there was a big fuss about it.
If you took some of the comments personally, please reconsider the motive behind those posting. Some might have been quick to condemn, but making bold assumptions about everyone else on this board is a littl rash, don't you think?
I know that I want to know God in all His fullness, and I have no problem with Him pushing my bounderies, but we have to know when it's not God doing the pushing.
We are creatures of extremes. When too many people flock to the left side of the boat, we instinctively try to get everyone else flock to the right side. But wisdom tells us the best way to keep the boat afloat is for everyone to stop running around and sit in the middle - to find the balance point.
We need to find the balance here. At least one brother (or sister - not sure) here is offended. Not that unity should trump truth, but let's pick our battles wisely.
I think it's safe to say that Brownsville should no longer be considered a revival - I am seeing full agreement there.
The original thread has taught me some things, and it has sparked my interest more in the early days of Brownsville instead of what it turned into.
As we approach a new year, let's all make sure our focus is on revival here and now. May it break out soon, beginning with our own hearts!

Christopher Wright

 2005/12/20 15:41Profile

Joined: 2005/12/16
Posts: 83


I think there is something happening here that only those who actually went to revival can feel and thats this:
Jesus used the revival to change our lives for Him, to hear people criticize it and demonize it in some cases it like hearing someone curse Jesus. (after all to slander His Spirit is to slander Him). Its infinately more than some theology or distant doctrine to us. We met God in that place. To have what you hold sacred desecrated invokes a feeling i cant even begin to describe. To have the very whispers of God to your heart be dissected like a frog is such a violating thing i can barely explain it.
It was HOLY. Its like someone criticizing how you and your wife make love. Where do they get the right?? Its repulsive, is angering, it violating its alot of things...

But i understand the other point of view which is
that the thing was false. So in which case none of those experiences matter and "anything goes" as far as criticism and faultfinding.
You must remember though some of these people are not names to us they are FACES. They are personal. When you say "the conversions were false" we hear "your conversion and the conversion of your friends and family were false"

So dear brother, dont be offended at those who
crticize what they havent experienced. Yes some are hostile but others simply dont know. All they have heard is the slander so how CAN they know?
Of course those who refuse to know by finding some first hand evidence and still criticize and go on slandering set themselves up for Judgment but that's their choice. Let them be.

The important thing is you were there. It's not a doctrine it's what you have "seen and heard that we declare". So remember what God has done and press foward!
The important thing (as tacklebox said) is that we seek revival now. You and i and others who experienced it may have somewhat of an insight to a degree of what to expect..but why not just press in together and when He comes just kind of wink at them and say "see...told ya"

As far the "dont take it personal" advise...try trash taking someones spouse in front of's pretty hard to be "objective and calm" in the face of that. What you call "revival" we remember as the manifest Glory and Presence of God.
It's just like salvation:
Impossible to describe before you get it, no need to describe once you do.
and the Baptism of the Holy Spirit,
sounds like non-sense before you get it, then it's the most precious thing in the world once you do.
So is Revival.
In all cases the experience illuminates the theology.

 2005/12/20 16:16Profile

 Re: Brownsville, Heretics, and so on...

It's interesting that when someone gets upset that others see things differently we are told that we should not judge. Yet the same people who say we should not judge will say things such as:

although I do expect the occasional "PURIFY THE TEMPLE! REMNANT UNITE AND ROOT OUT THE HERETICS" type of reply - [b]which is "a" typical to the pharisaical heart.[/b]

Isnt [i]that[/i] judgemental? Isnt that a double standard?

In my post I merely pointed out that there are many grevious false teachings in many of the "so-called revivals". I made it clear that we can not judge the heart, but we are certainly commanded to judge the teachings and activities.

To say that there are those here with a [b]"pharisaical heart"[/b] is the type of judgment that is forbidden. Only God can judge the heart.

I would caution you against making those type of statements.


 2005/12/20 16:48

Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7504

 Re: Brownsville, Heretics, and so on...


I really am not interested in weighing in on this Brownsville controversy, but I would like for you to be aware of something: it is not impossible for a person to come to Christ, experience forgiveness of sins while under the teaching of a false prophet! I have met a man who was soundly converted under this circumstances and is reluctant to tell people what the situation was in which he met the LORD Jesus. Another person who comes to mind is David Bercot. He and his wife came to the LORD while a Jehovah's Witness and served there for some time before the LORD led them out of it.

The point is that because someone finds the LORD under the ministry of certain people this will not legitimatize that person's standing before God. Remember Jesus' words when he described the things people will say when they appear before the judgement throne of God?: 'Many will say to me in that day, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophecy in your name, and in your name cast out demons, and in your name perform many miracles?" And then I will declare to them, I never knew you; depart from me, you who practice lawlessness.'Matthew 7:22 (NASB).

This is serious and sobering.

Also I do not believe the people on this forum are interested in hurting or destroying you. They are people who care very much about protecting themselves and others from deception.


Sandra Miller

 2005/12/20 18:44Profile

Joined: 2005/10/18
Posts: 490


I would suggest reading Jesse Penn-Lewis "War on the Saints." It's available on this site and both her and Evan Roberts lived through a great revival.

This is from Chapter 12...

We have seen that the period in the believer's life wherein he receives the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is the special time of danger from the evil supernatural world, and the Baptism of the Spirit is THE ESSENCE OF REVIVAL. Revival dawn, is, therefore, the great moment for deceiving spirits to find entrance into the believer by deception through counterfeits, resulting sometimes in the possession dealt with in preceding pages.

The hour of Revival is a time of crisis and possible catastrophe. A crisis in the history of every individual, as well as in the history of a country, a church, or a district. A crisis for the unregenerate man, wherein he settles his eternal destiny, as he accepts, or rejects conversion to God; a crisis to those who receive the fulness of the Holy Spirit, and to those who reject Him; for to the believer who bends and receives the Holy Spirit, it is the day of the visitation of the Most High, but to others it means the decision whether they will become spiritual men or remain carnal (1 Cor. 3: 1); whether they will elect to remain in defeat in the personal life, or determine to press on as overcomers.

Few go through the crisis without deception by the enemy in more or less degree, and only those who cling to the use of their reasoning faculties at this time, can hope to be saved from the catastrophe of becoming a victim to the subtle workings of evil supernatural powers. If the believer does become deceived by evil spirits at the time that he is baptized with the Spirit, almost immediately after the highest point of his experience, he begins through deception to descend into a pit which ultimately means depth of darkness, bondage and misery, until he is undeceived and returns to the normal path. Those who do not discover the deceptions, sink into deeper deception, and become practically useless to God and to the Church.

Ed Pugh

 2005/12/20 21:55Profile

Joined: 2005/10/19
Posts: 124

 Re: Brownsville, Heretics, and so on...

I for one was not being critical of the revival -- I beleive it was one and i bleeive people were genuinely touched and moved by it. My purpose was to bring some honesty to the assesment of what happend there to avoid problems of what to do when revival strickes somewhere else. I simply do not beleive the notion that it stoped because of the critics -- the earlty church stands against that -- they were far more criticised and persecuted than Brownsville and not only survived -- but thrived. When a revival dies it does so for the same reason it started only in reverse -- people stop being humble, people stop praying and eople stop being obedient. All these happend at the end at Brownsville which some who were a part of it will testify to. My point is I don't think trying to assess honestly what happened should automatically be labeled as Criticim. I also want the truth. I don't completely agree with anyone, but I do see everyone's point and respect it. Doesn't mean I won't tell you you are wrong. This forum has a palce to discus doctrine this way-- why is religious practice offf limits. Iron still sharpens iron.

As for pruifying the body of Christ -- our brother is very correct -- you do not do that by getting rid of heretics. But we are called to sperate ourselves from anything that is not pure and be holy as HE is holy.

Unfortunately I feel a lot of feelings got involved in this one becasue of people's expereinces -- Expereince is not the determining factor of truth -- The Word is. The one thing I did not see a lot of in the other thread was people using Scripture to back up their point (on both sides) -- it was a lot of 'my expereince is more authoritative than yours'.

I don't care where you graduted from. If you the Lord and follow his Word you good to me. If you were there when the fire was hhot -- could you ell me what it was like -- I haven't felt a hot fire of the Spirit in a long time. It would be nice to see a little of what I am looking forward to.

Be blessed.

Ed Raby

 2005/12/20 22:58Profile

Joined: 2004/5/6
Posts: 309
Washington st. u.S. A.

 Re: Brownsville, Heretics, and so on...

Welcome to the world of micro management. I believe there is to much trying to move God and not leting God move us through the Holy Spirit. what ever happened to simple faith and that God who can rule the universe can point us in the right direction by the Holy Spirit. All of acts is about how the new body of Christ was moved and given direction through prayer and fasting and asking God the father through his son for the power of the comforter who was promised. we are to be humble yet its hard to find a humble person when you need one, all seem to be sitting on thrones and micro manageing their fellow man. Paul said of old I to wish I was sitting on a throne with you all. But there was work to do. the world dosn't need to come up against christains, just leave us alone and we will fall apart on our own. each holding to his little scripture that God himself has given him and him alone. when Christ was told of one who was using his name to heal people, well the disciples in their wisdom told him to stop. for that person was not one of them. hmm sound familiar. because God hasn't spoken to us dosn't mean God in his wisdom hasn't spoken to someone else. I think maybe if we stop talking and start listening,praying with out ceasing and fasting. looking to the God of heaven and of earth, showing him we are his and really have our heart in tune with him and not our own agenda. the power of God would come... and his might be shown.
quit looking at man and start looking to please God. say what you will it's God who is sitting on his throne and maybe laughing.

 2005/12/20 23:32Profile

Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 4


I used to be a charismatic. I chased "the annointing" by going out of my way to see Jesse Duplantis, Rod Parsley, David Hogan and Benny Hinn. I am thankful to Jesus that He delivered me from such error and revealed to me that this movement is full of emotionalism and big talking and stories with no real hunger to know the truth or desire to exalt Jesus as Lord. Instead, people are being exalted and the true preaching of God's Word is replaced by singing, dramatic emotional experiences and more singing. And if anyone questions these leaders or the movement, guess what they are called. Yep, that's right-religious pharisees. Well, call me what you will, but I care about the TRUTH being told and I care about your soul. There are many dangerous doctrines in the charismatic movement. If you truly are Christ's, you will obey His Word, rather than following experiences that contradict His Word. Read the Bible and any experience that claims to be of God needs to be tested by the Bible.

 2005/12/21 0:02Profile

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