Sorry Mike. Yes, Amen to your amen anyway.
Usually when this topic surfaces we have references to Arminians and Calvinist. I doubt whether either group would have wanted to be associated with me! :-D Most know the Calvinist TULIP
Perserverance of the Saints
but I thought it might interest some to know the Arminian position:
Jacobus Arminius, Professor of Divinity in the University of Leyden, 1603, charged the Calvinist theory of predestination (incorporated in the Confessio Belgica) with making God the author of sin. His developed views on this point were very similar to those of the council of Trent. Though he did not deny election he based it not on a divine arbitory decree, but upon God's foreknowledge of man's merit. In 1618 these views, expressed in the Five Articles, were condemned by a synod at Dort, and the Remonstrants were compelled to leave the Reformed Church.
1. the "election" of those who have believed through grace, and who persevere through grace.
2. unlimited atonement
3. man incapable of reponse to God without grace
4. grace the beginning, progress and end of all. Grace not irresistable.
5. perserverance dependent upon cooperation with God. Refused to commit for or against eternal security.
The Five Articles of the Remonstrants 1618.
Bettenson. Documents of the Christian Church p 268
| 2003/12/1 13:03||Profile|
"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11
How true is the saying of one of the Early Fathers, "If there are shallows in the Bible where a little child may wade, there are depths where a giant must swim." It seems to me that this truth of [i]predestination[/i] fits into this classification quite well.
Its intresting how there are some biblical words that are closely related on this subject:
foreknowledge, election and predestination.
It may help to give some rough definitions of these terms (this is not exaustive or complete):
[b]Foreknowledge (biblical definition)[/b] - "Fore" or "Before" simply means that God knows beforehand what the future holds.
[b]1 Peter 1:2 (niv)[/b] - who have benn chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for odedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.
[b]Romans 8:29 (niv)[/b] - For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of His Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
"Foreknoweldge, then, means to define and determine beforehand, to mark out boundaries in advance."
[b]Election (biblical definition)[/b] - This term represents the sovereign and eternal choice of persons by God.
[b]Ephesians 1:4 (niv)[/b] - For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blamless in his sight.
Here are some different aspects of election as classified by C.I. Schofield:
1. Election is according to God's foreknoweldge (1 Peter 1:2).
2. Election is wholly of grace, apart from human merit (Romans 9:11; 11:5,6).
3. Election proceeds from divine volition (John 15:16).
4. Election is the sovereign act of God, whereby certain are chosen from among mankind for Himself (John 15:19).
5. Election is God's sovereign act whereby certain elect persons are chosen for His distinctive service (Luke 6:13; Acts 9:15; 1 Corinthians 1:17,18).
[b]Predestination (biblical definition)[/b] - Predestination is that effective exercise of the will of God by which things before determined by Him are brought to pass.
[b]Ephesians 1:5 (niv)[/b] - he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will.
"A fact to remember is that the Scriptures present the union of divine sovereignty and human responsiblity."
This was an intresting quote on the subject I found:
"What must be borne in mind is the fact that [i]predestination[/i] is not God's predetermining from past ages who should and who should not be saved. Scripture does not teach this view. What it does teach is that this doctrine of predestination concerns the future of believers. Predestination is the divine determining the glorious consummation of all who through faith, and surrender become the Lord's. He has determined beforehand that each child of His will reach adoption, or "the son-placing" at his resurrection when Christ returns. It has been determined beforehand that all who are truly Christ's shall be conformed to His image (Romans 8:29; Ephesians 1:5)."
SI Moderator - Greg Gordon
| 2003/12/1 17:10||Profile|
Oak Ridge, Tennessee
Let me get this straight. By your comments may I conclude that you would perhaps consider yourself a CARLMINIAST? :-o
| 2003/12/1 19:22||Profile|
Clutch's comment: "Let me get this straight. By your comments may I conclude that you would perhaps consider yourself a CARLMINIAST?"
Some years ago I was in a small gathering of pastors and missionaries in Malawi. We were having a time of fellowship together prior to my 'bringing a word'. We began to introduce ourselves and a formula developed. "this is my name, this is what I do, this is who I am with" e.g. I'm John Smith, I am supporting churches in Blantyre, I am with the Methodists... and so on.
I was the last in the circle. "I'm Ron Bailey, I'm visiting and encouraging some African pastors in the area." There I paused...
"and who are you with?" they asked.
I replied "I'm with anyone who will have me!"
That's still my position. ;-) I don't 'consider' myself an anything-ist and I subscribe to no -ism. The Pentecostals think I am Brethren, the Brethren think I am Pentecostal, the Calvinists think I am Arminian and the Arminians think I am a Calvinist. Just an odd-ball I guess, but with a strong sense of belonging to the Church of Christ, horizontally around the world and vertically down the centuries; there is One Body and the Head has added me to it. :-P
and BTW, to all my new friends in the forums, "thanks for having me!" :-P
| 2003/12/2 5:39||Profile|
Santa Clara, CA
Bless you. I really like these 'descriptions';
I don't 'consider' myself an anything-ist and I subscribe to no -ism. The Pentecostals think I am Brethren, the Brethren think I am Pentecostal, the Calvinists think I am Arminian and the Arminians think I am a Calvinist. Just an odd-ball I guess, but with a strong sense of belonging to the Church of Christ, horizontally around the world and vertically down the centuries; there is One Body and the Head has added me to it.
Odd-ball, yes aren't we all?!
Labels. pre-, post, anti, -ist, -ism, non.
If I had to give a 'description' it would probably be along the lines of: "Below average student in the school of following Christ. At present failing many courses that will have to be made up. Has a serious distrust of his own thoughts and suffers from too much introspection. Has a flawed understanding of much of theology including 'predestination', which to his way of thinking is like trying to explain how to remodel a bathroom to a gopher, he doesn't understand either. The interstate that runs those 18 inches from the head to the heart is so congested most days finds him searching for an alternate route or crying out the four lettered word prayer, HELP!
He is a bit to self-conscious and paranoid, always wondering if his mouth and motives match, if he is trying too hard to be clever and cute, if he is humble enough, doing enough, praying enough, serving enough, studying enough....thinks too much, says too much. Knows all to well that he is a sinner and yet a saint, thinks Romans 7 stops at verse 24, was really a personal letter to himself and would prefer to sit and stew over that with the objection to Romans 8 being for 'everybody else'. Has grandiose plans such as writing the ultimate bestseller with the working title of "Musings of a Scatterbrained Christian".
Longs to be with the Lord, not affraid to die (so he says), yet fears not hearing those celebrated words "Well done good and faithful servant" so would prefer not to show up unprepared, empty handed. Being 5 cans short of a six-pack in the brain cell department, he struggles more than most and then wonders if that is to self promoting, in fact tends to think that everything he does is too self promoting. Wishes that he strike that word from his vocabulary,
"self" and just go sit in the bleachers and watch God work, of course then he would feel guilty for not doing anything.
Understands wrath better than grace and for the life of him can't understand why God has drawn him to Himself and loves him anyway. Would lay down his life for his friends, maybe even for his enemies. Would tear out his heart and give it away in an instant, usually can be found to be crying on the inside over all that is and has gone wrong. Hates seeing people being mislead, lying, cheating, hypocrisy (especially himself), anything that is false, fraudulent or fake. Loves people, especially other....."people who follow Jesus".
Tries to hold to what is true and would reject any notion that he may hold if further light is shown that he was in error. Has one goal in this school of life, to know God and His Son Jesus Christ and just what it is he is supposed to do with that knowledge. O.K. that's more than one.
Generally confused, curious and contemplative. Willing to be embarressed if he can learn something from it.
In other words, an 'odd-ball'.....
Can I go to your 'church' ?
| 2003/12/2 11:37||Profile|
Can I join the odd-ball club?
I'm pretty much down the middle too...not an Arminian by any means, and definitely not a Calvinist. I think they're both extremes on the spectrum, and the Bible's truth is somewhere in between those two. All of the verses on how God chose us tells me that the truth is not complete Arminianism...and for example, 1 John 2:2 totally throws "limited atonement" out the window for Calvinists.
And I can't stand it when Christians say, "Well, this is what I believe," or, "Well, this is how I interpret the Bible on this point." Too bad! lol The Bible isn't open to human interpretation, so get over it. There's one truth...truth isn't subjective!!
And you know, I can be discipled by many wise Christians who God has blessed with the gifts of knowledge and wisdom and teaching/sheparding. But that doesn't change the fact that they're still just men and the Bible is still the ultimate source of growth as far as understanding God's truths go.
There is not a single solitary church denomination out there who's got it 100% right. Not one. I'm "just Christian", but I go to a southern baptist church -- they've got some doctine and practices I'm not completely okay with, but I love the hearts of the people I worship with -- they're sincere and they're my brothers and sisters in Christ! (Hooray!)
And you know, I'd rather be a "fence-sitter" in man-made doctrine than in faith.
Now where's my membership card?
| 2003/12/2 11:49||Profile|
I take John Wesley's statement as my own, "There's just a hair's breadth difference between me and Calvin."
I'm probably a little more reformed than Bro. Ron. I would probably fall more into the classical Arminian position.
| 2003/12/2 11:58||Profile|
C7S quote: I'm pretty much down the middle too...not an Arminian by any means, and definitely not a Calvinist. I think they're both extremes on the spectrum, and the Bible's truth is somewhere in between those two.
Now this will really show you how odd-ball I am. I suspect the truth lies in both extremes but held at the same time. Understand what I mean? Me neither! :-D
| 2003/12/2 14:31||Profile|
Mike's quote: In other words, an 'odd-ball'.....
Can I go to your 'church' ?
Sorry, we're already over our quota of odd-balls. :-D
| 2003/12/2 14:34||Profile|
| Re: Election and Limited Atonement|
27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
Jesus taught that all those given Him by the Father will come and no one else will believe. He even says that he only intercedes for the elect. He lays His life down only for the sheep. The rest are left to wander off to damnation (justice).
To reply to Chosen7Stone from 12/2/2003 , if IJohn 2:2 is interpreted to say that Christ's death was effective for the sins of the world, then we are all saved, right?
| 2003/12/2 20:09||Profile|