Ironman I like what you have been addressing here. Remember that Paul earned his own keep by tentmaking. While it is scripturally correct to help those who are in need as they spread the gospel, the fact is that all believers are supposed to be in full time ministry. This it the call of the Lord on every follower of Christ, not just a few.

If indeed some are called to pastor does this indicate that some should earn their living from the gospel. All are equal in the body of Christ.

Paul speaks about that in 1 Cor. 9:16 onward. So while I don't think it is wrong to help a fellow believer out as they are spreading the gospel whichever way they feel called, I don't see the need for some in the body of Christ to earn a living off of the Gospel while others work earning their own living and spreading the Gospel.

I think about it this way. Christ gives us salvation freely to those who believe ~> yet we sell His Gospel message and earn a living from it, and raise money on behalf of it.

brethren
what has happened here is that gross error on the part of the servants of God (or who purport themselves to be) has been pointed out. their lavish lifestyles are not the way Christ lived nor the apostles nor should we ourselves strive to live as such. this can be a big obstacle to winning souls for Christ because even an unbeliever can see that here is something fishy there...judging involves not just pointing out error but then PUNISHING it also. if you see how the word judge is used in scripture you'll find that the Lord points out the error and then administers the fitting punishment, that is judgement. let's not hide behind the scripture in John 8:7 by twisting it and using it as an excuse to shy from pointing out error in eachother when the Holy Spirit led to. Paul said that even he didn't do the things which were good that he wanted to but did the evil which he didnt want to do and yet he railed against sin as the Lord led him to. let's not punk out of calling out sin when the Holy Spirit leads. if we follow that logic then noone would be able to say anything at all about sin,where would we be then? :-?

that scripture is an exhortation to remind us not to punish others rashly because we don't have all the facts. i did a little digging on that scripture and the law of moses did say that the woman should be put to death but not that she be stoned so unless she was either married, about to be or a priest's daughter,the people here were not applying this law correctly in the first place. the woman here was guilty without doubt but i'm convinced she was convicted of her sin and repented and received forgiveness from Christ.

brethren when the Lord leads we should expose error wherever it may be found, first in ourselves and then also in others so that we may come to the place where the Lord would have us.

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Farai Bamu

bro Onfire
in light of what Paul wrote in Corinthians about the worker being worth his keep perhaps we should also take into consideration how well one is working for the Lord? also i don't think that those who did receive aid from the people they were sent to were given a free ticket, did they not find work elsewhere also? can someone shed some light on that?

you brought up a good point in that we all should be working actively in the body of Christ.this has been hindered by the current church setup. we tend to let the pastor do most of the work when we should really be fully participating in the meeting when we come together and fellowhship. when the church met in the early days, they allowed Holy Spirit to come in and move as God would have Him move so that all could participate hence the exhortations about prophesying in tongues and order in the meetings.

bro Paul says though that one who preaches is entitled some some kinda reward from that and reap some material benefits (though not hording millions of dollars) though i think he's saying this from the standpoint of one who labours for the church as tirelessly as the Lord led him to, maybe the reward goes with how much work the servant has done?

i pray we seek the Lord's counsel on this...my head is beginning to hurt :-?

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Farai Bamu

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Bill

Though there is a multitude of threads in this regard it is difficult to keep silent here.

Having come out from underneath many of the aforementioned names and the whole of this brand of 'theology' I don't find any sympathy whatsoever in any of this. There a few others around here who have come out of similar constructs.

It is a rather painful matter to go back and retread all this here, would recommend doing a search on some of these names and reading the thoughts expressed.

Not only do these things need to be exposed and judged with right judgment, to turn away from it would be just as great a sin. There are lives being affected by all this, attempting to dislodge one from something of this sort is very difficult ...

The audacity and flippancy alone ought to be telling enough. The money being bilked out of the unsuspecting, the vulnerable, and yes even the ignorant (would class myself in the latter) is the height of audacity. There is no middle ground here, to try and make scriptural precepts for this kind of nonsense is beyond reason and it is weary to hear it.

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Mike Balog

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Bill

bro bill

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Farai Bamu

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Mike Balog

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Bill

Ironman ~> You're correct that the current church system has a hierarchy in it that I do not believe that Christ established for His Church. If you look at the example that Christ gave us. He took a dozen + men and women and taught them to be His followers. Today we have one person with the job title of Pastor who takes on many more all at once. This was also a good point that you made concerning those who were assisted. They weren't given a free ride where they went.

Bottom line; are we not to trust God for providing our needs both financially and spiritually? It seems that many who have taken on a carreer in ministry trust man for their provisions more so than God.

In regards to my own life. God provides me with a carreer and in turn I devote my life daily to spreading the truth of what He teaches me and how His Spirit guides me. I don't have to pass the offering plate to spread the Gospel message.

In regards to prosperity T.V. preachers, they have unfortunately the right to do what they do. Besides the money that they are receiving we need to be very concerned about the twisting of truth.

We have to return to the way that Christ established things to be in His Church. Christ is the Shepherd not man. That means He is the only Pastor we need. Any pastoring comes directly through Him and He anoints people to pastor our spiritual needs.

We have to question ourselves and our circumstances. How is it that someone who only sees us from the front of a building once a week or someone who mildly knows of our concerns or someone preaching over T.V. can possibly know what our spiritual needs are? Jesus Christ built relationships with the people that He pastored. He still wants to. Pastoring comes from those who are spiritually mature and from those in whom we have built up a relationship with in the body of Christ.