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Sir_Edward
Member



Joined: 2005/10/19
Posts: 124
Michigan

 Modesty, the Church and True Sexual Identity.

Ok, an earlier thread has me thinking about modesty in dress and the destruction of feminine virtue. I have also been thinking on how this has altered Western culture.

There are two passages in the NT that deal with the issue of modest in 1 Timothy and 1 Peter.

In addressing Men and women in the context of prayer in 1 Timothy 2 -- Paul says this:

Quote:
1 Timothy 2:8-10
8Therefore (A)I want the men (B)in every place to pray, (C)lifting up (D)holy hands, without wrath and dissension.
Women Instructed
9Likewise, I want (E)women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments,
10but rather by means of good works, as is proper for women making a claim to godliness.



I maintained in the Master's Thesis on 1st Timothy that the instructions to men and women were both conclusions to Pauls's statements about prayer in verses 1-7. Therefore, it is just as important in the context of a life of prayer for a women to have a modest heart that is refected in dress. This passage also points to both sides of the dress issue in that on the one hand don't be showy and on the other don't be sensual (descrete being the opposite here)

(OK, just so I don't get asked later here is my education: B.A. Biblical Studies / Ministry - Trinity Bible College 1993 and M.A. Theological Studies -- Asbury Theological Seminary 1996)

Peter adds to this discussion but in the context of the relationship wives should have with their husband.

Quote:
1 Peter 3:3-5
3(D)Your adornment must not be merely external--braiding the hair, and wearing gold jewelry, or putting on dresses;
4but let it be (E)the hidden person of the heart, with the imperishable quality of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is precious in the sight of God.
5For in this way in former times the holy women also, (F)who hoped in God, used to adorn themselves



Peter adds the idea of this ornimentation should focus more on the inner heart than outward appearance. He does not contradict Paul, but the focuses on the fact that all holy women adorn themselves in this way-- with a gentle a quite spirit.

Both of these passages go on further to mention the ugly word for women - 'submission'. In Timothy it is women to men and in Peter wives to husbands (Peter uses some very strong language on this I might add)

That said: I have studied my history and I have looked at this issue from multiple angles. Briefly my historical observation (Ginnyrose you can correct me if and where I am wrong):

In the 1960's a cultural revolution took place where all previous moral foundations were discarded. This started earlier as Ginnyrose pointed out but it really blew up here. Women discarded the notion that their value was in having children, raising them, being part of marriage and family,even homemaking became something of a lost art over time till the present day. As a result divorce, unwed motherhood, illegitimacy increased. I note -- so did pornography (as men searched for women who would give them what they want now for women became objects who were judged on performance. Hate to be rough there but it is true), domestic violence as men became increasingly frustrated as women failed to recognize their leadership. After all women redefined themselves but men did not. Some women tried to redefine man's role and some have suceeded but for the most part men have said -- wait a minute you don't want us telling you what to de why do you turn around and try to define who we should be?, and sexual openness in dress. Now I am in no way justifying domestic violence or pornography but there are cause and effect reasons for these increases and these are some of them.

What did the church do? Well,they became another reason for the increase in these things.
1) The church entered politics and tried to fight these things with legislation. Millions of dollars was poured into elections, protests and petitions. Money that could have been given to empower the church to preach the life changing gospel. Sad now to look back at it.
2) In an effort to keep people in the church . There was a toning down of 'offensive' rhetoric from the pulpit in general. Hell, the day of judgment, the law, sin, etc. became bywords of a 'less enlightened' age. One of these doctrines -- the holiness of the beleiver -- was lost in this . partly becasue of desire not to offend, but also the understanding of sanctification in the beleiver was changed to allow even habitual sin ( or I am sorry -- 'our problem') in a born again Christain. Antinomian grace became the main staple of the mainline church.
3) The Biblical roles of women and men were set aside as the church came up with new interpretations to explain away problem passages (Like the two above) to line up with the world's view on the sexes. "That was relative -- to that culture' became the catch phrase of scholars to get the Bible to line up with new views. (I know, I have been there -- especially at Asbury) It was interesting to note that eventually everything that the early church became relative as well -- preaching in the street, go into all the world, make disciples, etc. have all had this problem as many of you well know.

The Battle of the Sexes continues largely because of the lack of one word -- 'submission'. Men do not submit to God and women do not submit to God and men. Men do have it 'easier' in that they only have to submit to one thing, but in theat one thing they stumble because men, of all people, do not like to submit to anything but themselves. Women are more submissive by nature but they too have the problem of not submitting to God in this area (modesty in particular becaue they do not see its spiritual significance)and well submitting to men who are flawed is another matter.

It seems to me if man submits to God and women submit to men the battles are over. Peace would reign. Given the statements in Timothy on this I would say that it is true. Men would obey God in that they would cherish women (especially their wives) as part of their own bodies -- they would love them as Christ loved the church -- domestic violence, unwed mothers, illegitimacy and even divorce would disappear. Women would see their value in not what they do, but in who they are and what they do would change.

Women dress immodestly these days because of one thing -- they do not want to submit to men -- they want to manipulate them. Often it backfires as I am sure Ginnyrose could tell you. Every girl is taught by this culture: Dress to intoxicate men with you sensuality (and boy does it work because men don't think in this area -- they really need God's help), use your sexuality to get what you want from men and then when they no longer suit your purpose use the same tools to snag someone else. Men however are a jeolous lot and when a women treats them this way -- they feel used and someone is going to pay for it. Often the girl is the one who eats it: 'Fine sweetheart -- you wanted a baby -- you got one now but if you don't mind I am going to split becasue what attracted to me to you (your body and sexual openess) aint what it was babe (those stretch marks and well gee what happened to your figure?)and the added responsiblity isn't worth it to me -- se ya'
Women have come off the throne and into the gutter because they think this is what they must do, but in the end it burns them.

If a women develops this quiet, gentle and submissive spirit is there any need for her to atract a man by dressing like a harlot. No. Sorry in this culture they shine like beacons. They earn a man's respect so quickly that genuine love for them quickly follows.

The fact is women have actually diminished their own respectability by doing this but they do it in the name of being free and liberated. But ultimately they hurt themsleves.

Dress becomes the outward sign of this. Modesty comes from the heart. I think by ignoring these verses teaching opportunities for young women by older ones is lost. There is the real value of a woman in these passages and if a young lady is taught modesty as a heart condition she should have -- dress will reflect it. If a woman is taught that he value is not in what she does for men and children but who she is to them because of her spiritual qualities and if a woman lets God and his word define what it means to be female, all of her struggles in this area end.

It is sad day for us in the church -- because we are afraid to preach these passages in this light for fear of being labeled as sexist when we have the God given definition of what it means to be male and female. The struggle of sexual identity is not about a man or a woman finding it, but by submitting to what God says about it. Real liberation is found in submission all the way around.

Blessings.


_________________
Ed Raby

 2005/11/23 11:32Profile
shibu
Member



Joined: 2003/9/13
Posts: 230
Goa, India

 Re: Modesty, the Church and True Sexual Identity.

Please read two points from "HOW TO PREACH INEFFECTIVELY" by Charles Finney


[b]o Don't rebuke the worldly tendencies of believers, especially in their dress, lest they get offended and feel uncomfortable.

o Above all, be especially careful not to hurt the feelings of anyone. Make it your great aim to please your hearers and to make them pleased with, you as well.[/b]

Follow the above principles, and you will be a first - class servant of Satan. "If I seek to please men I cannot be the servant of Christ" - Gal. 1:10

Pastor. Sir_Edward, I appreciate your boldness to stand as a counter-cultural man for the sake of God's truth without legalistic spirit.

In Him,
Shibu


_________________
Shibu Clement

 2005/11/23 12:11Profile
Sir_Edward
Member



Joined: 2005/10/19
Posts: 124
Michigan

 Re:

shibu,

Quote:
Pastor. Sir_Edward, I appreciate your boldness to stand as a counter-cultural man for the sake of God's truth without legalistic spirit.



That's what I am going for here. We have changeed culturally in the West and no one is saying -- "Is this a good change". I just want people to understand the orignial intent of the holiness movement was holiness of heart. Once that is achived -- dress and behavior line up accordingly. The fact is we dismiss a lot of Scripture because we do not like the 'plain English' of it. That's where I challenge myself to say -- what does it say, how does it apply and how is it expressed in love.

Finney was right on, God bless him. But we have forgotten these parts of what the early revivalists said too.

Blessings.


_________________
Ed Raby

 2005/11/23 18:20Profile
groh_frog
Member



Joined: 2005/1/5
Posts: 432


 Re:

There's two awesome books that touch on this subject, but in more of a way than just talking about the outward adornment and actions. They're called "Wild at Heart" and "Captivating", by John and Stasi Eldredge.

Description: Hungry for a dash of daring in your marriage? Eldredge serves up a provocative look at gender roles. He challenges men to abstain from passivity, be fortified by their God-given dreams, and walk the road least taken; and encourages women to recover their feminine power, freedom, and beauty.

I haven't read "Captivating" (it's for women), but my wife has. I guess it's a great book talking about women- and so much more than outward adornment alone. It's all about what's inside the heart...

Anyway, I'd reccomend this to anybody who wants to look deeper at what the roles of men in women really are.

Grace and Peace...

 2005/11/24 0:58Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7534
Mississippi

 Re: Modesty, the Church and True Sexual Identity.

Sir Edward, you said it perfectly! I am so thankful you shared this info. You did it better then I did!

As I ponder the Reformation, the period of time when bold young men stood up to the status quo, I wonder what would happen if young men today would get bold and speak up, what would happen? You hear the cry for revival on this forum, but how many would care to touch the issues you just mentioned, Bro. Edward? Is it not ironical that while the western churches are backing off from telling women how they need to become more humble, submissive, the Moslems are making fast headways in recruiting American women into their ranks where they are subject to far more limitations and dress far more radical then any Christian women, including the Amish!

Females chafe at the restrictions placed on them, thinking it it far too restrictive, citing some of the OT laws. I am very fascinated by the OT laws concerning women after birthing a child. They were declared unclean for a period of time, depending on the gender of the child. When you read this law, how it would be lived out in everyday life, I am struck with awe and wonder at the Creator God who so loved and cared for women that He went so far as to make it a religious law to restrict womens' movements. She was very liminted in what she was allowed to do right after the birth of her child. These laws meant she was to bond with her child, care for her body so it can heal, so she can regain her strength and have more children in the future. I also suspect it protected her from health problems in later years. Methinks women could learn from these OT laws and if they would understand the underlying principles they would be healthier and happier! This, obviously, is my opinion!

Keep it up, Sir Edward.

ginnyrose


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2005/11/24 8:15Profile
Tears_of_joy
Member



Joined: 2003/10/30
Posts: 1554


 Re: Modesty, the Church and True Sexual Identity.

Great thread.

Quote:
It is sad day for us in the church -- because we are afraid to preach these passages in this light for fear



Preach brother, preach!

Must heard sermons on this subject are:

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=4616]Practical Principles For a Godly Marriage by Keith Daniel[/url]

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=5285]Husbands Love Your Wifes! by Keith Daniel[/url]


Kire

 2005/11/24 11:34Profile
Sir_Edward
Member



Joined: 2005/10/19
Posts: 124
Michigan

 Re:

Ginny,

Yes it seems that females in western culture chaff at Biblical restirctions never realizing that much of what God did was to protect women.

One of my favorites is in the case of an unwed mother or fornication, the man was REQUIRED to marry the girl and loses all options for divorce. I wonder how much that caused men to keep control of themselves ;-). (note: In our society there are no controls at all so men act like dogs -- it seems that this protection runs both ways) It prevented the mother from being both unwed and unsupported. Now we could argue that it still wouldn't stop the man from fooling around later, but the law against adultry was pretty stiff in its penalty too -- DEATH. Simply put --there was no unwed mothers in Jewish society when the law was followed. Widows maybe (But even they had rules that protected them as is seen in the story of Ruth)but no unwed mothers. If there were, it was only because they would not reveal who the father was.

Another is the laws concerning female cleaness. If followed they actually produce less infections for women.

The point is that God really is looking out for owmen with a lot of the rules and setting up a balanced playing field for intersex relationships to take place with them. The problem is how to present these things in church without causing a stir.

Blessings.


_________________
Ed Raby

 2005/11/24 20:24Profile









 Re: Modesty, the Church and True Sexual Identity.

Sir Edward....(or shall I say Eddie)...that was a great word....my prayer is that you either HAVE or WILL deliver it in a sermon, and that it touches the heart of many of God's children in this 21st century...in Jesus' Name, amen.

 2005/11/24 21:06
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7534
Mississippi

 Re:

Sir Edward, I have a suggestion on how to teach these principles in your brotherhood: Solicit the help of your wife and let her teach the women. In the meantime, you teach the men! Now I have it all figured out for you! Sounds easy, doesn't it!! :-)

ginnyrose


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2005/11/24 22:36Profile
Christisking
Member



Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 671
Los Angeles, California

 Re:

Here is short clip (4min.) of Dr. Michael Brown giving a teaching on this subject.

[url=http://www.thesearchforbiblicaltruth.org/don_t_give_in_to_the_pressure.wma]FOR THE GIRLS - Don't Give Into The Pressure!!![/url]


_________________
Patrick Ersig

 2005/11/25 1:17Profile





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