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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : "recovery version" of the bible

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crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Guess I will have to work from the top down...

Was just musing on this whole aspect and perhaps it might be a good idea to open it up in a seperate thread, bringing in different applications where it comes up in scripture.

Think there is likely a bit more to flesh out in all of this.

Act 25:11 If then I am a wrongdoer and have committed anything for which I deserve to die, I do not seek to escape death. But if there is nothing to their charges against me, no one can give me up to them. I appeal to Caesar."

As well as the 'defrauding' mentioned earlier, brother against brother and so forth.

Quote:
I suggest a prayerful consideration of Paul' words in 1 corinthians. To consider its intent, It's context, and its application.



And similarly the same with the others. Perhaps then we might gain a better understanding as it applies here.


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Mike Balog

 2005/11/29 22:54Profile
crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Want to echo Greg's earlier sentiments here as well, thank you GB for shedding more light here from your personal testimony, it makes me almost wonder.. 'Why were you holding out on us?" ;-)

Certainly you had shared some parts elsewhere but just want to commend your willingness to open up more of where you are coming from as well as where you have been, it helps to gain a better understanding in such a volatile area as this is or can be...

It seems that there is more than one singular approach to how this is in effect working itself out, this ministry. It does seem a bit contradictory in the stated goals, that of being unified and also 'not exclusive'... What am I trying to say? One the one hand it is "But of course" we are still stupid sheep and though it is supposed to be that "They might be One as We are" I can't but help wonder sometimes if that was something stated to humble us all, because we always fall short, either in contentions or by compromise... Something about an unorganized organization that just doesn't work by definition, I don't mean in a sloppy way... I am way too brain tired to go any further with this right now...:-?

I do sincerely appreciate the tact you have taken here to go on and work through this brother, it's what I had prayed for, perhaps some unity in disagreement after all.

There is still some questions and concerns about those that have been seriously affected that shouldn't be overlooked though, the critical aspect mentioned earlier by Agent001, the same ones that I have been trying to get at for a bit now.

What is helpful is when we take the accusatory tone out of everything and try and work at the root things. It is something peculiar to these kinds of settings, that takes some patience and some give and take to accomplish...

Quote:
I became a fond reader of A.W. Tozer, H. C. G. Moule. and others of that strain. After 2 years I could not conclude whether Joe Carroll was Calvinist or Arminian, This is to His credit.



You win me over with that one! :-) To his credit indeed, heard it expressed similarly by Keith Daniel (BTW, Listened to any of his messages here? Think you would find him a real blessing) and that brings out the Amen in me.
Quote:
And one day the Lord will enable me to have a spelling checker which works with Netscape.


There's the trouble! :-P


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Mike Balog

 2005/11/29 23:40Profile
Graftedbranc
Member



Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
It does seem a bit contradictory in the stated goals, that of being unified and also 'not exclusive'... What am I trying to say? One the one hand it is "But of course" we are still stupid sheep and though it is supposed to be that "They might be One as We are" I can't but help wonder sometimes if that was something stated to humble us all, because we always fall short, either in contentions or by compromise...



This is indeed one of the most difficult aspects of understanding the "recovery". How can you claim to be demonstrating the oneness of the body of Christ yet you separate yourselves from the others and seem to maintain an attitude of exclusiveness..

But lets take it from a different perspective. When we come to Christ who is "The way, the truth and the Life..." We automatically are separated from religions and every other way or method in seeking God. Unbelievers all regard us as Christians to be arrogant and exclusive because we cleave to Christ as "No one comes to the Father but by Me."

And as believers, as we go on with the Lord and enter into a fuller relationship with Him and have fuller revelation in the truth, we are automatically separated, at least inwardly from those who don't see what we see. It does not mean that we are not brothers and sisters but each of us has to live unto the Lord according to the Light we recieve or, we may even lose the light.

But in practice it is not so much that we determine to separate ourselves and be "exclusive" but we take a possition in the Lord and live according to the Light we have by the Spirit and some will oppose us but others will see Christ in us and seek to know Him in the same way. This is just our experience in our progress with the Lord.

When we come to the matter of the church, it opens up a can of worms that few are willing to even consider. There is so much confusion and contention over the matter that most just turn away from it.

But when we come to the scriptures and especially the epistles of Paul, Christ and the Church are the central matters in his burden. It is seen in every epistle and the high revealtion of the Church is found in his epistles in a way that is not found in any other (though it is not absent).

When we come to this "high revelation" and we gain by the Spirit's enlightment the revelation of the reality of the body of Christ according to Paul's revealtion, we have to admit that this Light is absent from most of the preaching and teaching which exist in today's Christianity. It is just simply ignored and the basic items of salvation by faith in Christ are the central theme in most preaching.

But if in our seeking the Lord and our openness to His further Light in His word, we see in the Divine Revelation the Nature of the Church as the body of Christ with all its implications, we are inwardly separated from those who do not see it.

Believers who can say, "Go to church' and regard the building in which they meet, "the church' show no revealtion concerning the reality of the church as the body of Christ. "This is the church and this is the steeple, open the door and there's all the people" is the level of light in most believers I believe we all have to admit.

But when with the inner revelation of the Spirit in the Word we see that the church is not a building or an orginization but a living orginism which we have heen baptised into by the Spirit, it takes on a new signifigance.

From then on we cannot say, "go to church' because it is contrary to the light we have in our spirit. Rather we know that "we are the church". This brings in a separation not outwardly but inwardly and make us in some's opinion "odd". We just cant do that. We know the reality. We have to testify to it and live in light of it.

If we take this further which I believe the lord in Watchman Nee led him, to see the Lord's burden in the New Testament to build up the body of Christ as local expressions of the one body, then if we see this, we have to take this ground. We take it not because someone convinced us that this is the right thing to do, but because we see by the Spirit's light in the Bible that this is the reality of the Church. We have to go this way or we are not faithful to the Light we have recieved.

As a consequence, those in Christianity who do not share this Vision from the word will oppose and will seek to find a reason that those who take this way are wrong. It is inherent in our nature to do so. If we are not enjoying the Light we will oppose it. It is our nature. some will just ignore it because they are not passionate about their "religion" but others who have givein themsleves to religion will strongly oppose it. This has been the history of both Christ and the church in all the ages.

What can we say. we are following the Lord according to the Light we have seen in the Bible. Others may not see this and others will oppose it. But what can we do? To whom else can we go? We are folowing the light we have and acting according to the what we have recieved from the Lord in His word.

I am sure this is disturbing to some. But again. what can I say.

Graftedbranch








 2005/11/30 17:22Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
When we come to this "high revelation" and we gain by the Spirit's enlightment the revelation of the reality of the body of Christ according to Paul's revealtion, we have to admit that this Light is absent from most of the preaching and teaching which exist in today's Christianity. It is just simply ignored and the basic items of salvation by faith in Christ are the central theme in most preaching.

According to the way you grade the canon of scripture 'the revelation' was missing from most of the early church's Christianity too.

This is simply a re-hashing of Darby's hyper-dispensationalism. He taught the 'ruined church' whereas the 'recovery' teaches a 'ruined church everywhere except in the recovery'. There is a phrase in Job which keeps coming to mind...“No doubt but ye are the people, and wisdom shall die with you.” (Job 12:2, KJVS)


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Ron Bailey

 2005/11/30 17:50Profile
Graftedbranc
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Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
This is simply a re-hashing of Darby's hyper-dispensationalism. He taught the 'ruined church' whereas the 'recovery' teaches a 'ruined church everywhere except in the recovery'. There is a phrase in Job which keeps coming to mind...



Brother, I hold no "hyper dispensational view". I consider the Church as one and the New Testament revealtion is One. But it's revalation was progressive from the time of pentecost till the completion of the New Testament Cannon which ends with the the epistles of John which shortly followed the book of Revelation. This progression is unfolded in the book of Acts.

There is only one New Testament Truth and one New Testament Revelalation and it's demarcation is the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ and the entering into it's reality is with the outpoured Spirit at Pentacost.

But the understanding and revealion of it and all it means and all it implies was incremental and progressive from that time till the completion of the New Testament Scriptures.

Graftedbranch

 2005/11/30 18:19Profile
jimbob
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Joined: 2005/9/25
Posts: 131


 Re:

Quote:

Graftedbranc wrote:
If we take this further which I believe the lord in Watchman Nee led him, to see the Lord's burden in the New Testament to build up the body of Christ as local expressions of the one body, then if we see this, we have to take this ground. We take it not because someone convinced us that this is the right thing to do, but because we see by the Spirit's light in the Bible that this is the reality of the Church. We have to go this way or we are not faithful to the Light we have recieved.

As a consequence, those in Christianity who do not share this Vision from the word will oppose and will seek to find a reason that those who take this way are wrong. It is inherent in our nature to do so. If we are not enjoying the Light we will oppose it. It is our nature. some will just ignore it because they are not passionate about their "religion" but others who have givein themsleves to religion will strongly oppose it. This has been the history of both Christ and the church in all the ages.

What can we say. we are following the Lord according to the Light we have seen in the Bible. Others may not see this and others will oppose it. But what can we do? To whom else can we go? We are folowing the light we have and acting according to the what we have recieved from the Lord in His word.

I am sure this is disturbing to some. But again. what can I say.

Graftedbranch



Wow!

I used to be a member of a cult once too, (seventh day adventist) so I kind of know the mindset.

LC="we are the recovery"
SDA= "we are the remnant"

LC= Witness Lee
SDA= Ellen White

SDA= we have the light!
LC= no! we have the light!

To claim you are not a denomination or a sect when your little group is the very definition of a denomination or sect!

You have an organized religion just like anyone else's, with a hierarchy, a set of (rigid)doctrinal beliefs and a set way of holding your meetings.

When Witness Lee was alive, your church followed him like catholics follow the pope.

Your "light" is just a delusion you won't let go
of, because you know the way, and everyone else is hostile because you have the truth.

That is what is called ARROGANCE and it is at the heart of all cults.

Like I said I know the mindset, it is universal to cults, I will plead with you now to stop rationalizing your position, and pray to God to remove any delusions you hold.

 2005/11/30 20:18Profile
Graftedbranc
Member



Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re: Light and opposition

I like this quote of Michael Molinos in His preface to "The Spirital Guide" written in Italy in the 1500s:

"There are some Learned Men, who have never read these Matters, and some Spiritual Men that hitherto have hardly relished them and therefore both condemn them, the one out of Ignorance, and the other for want of Experience. Besides, it is certain, that he who hath not the experience of this sweetness, cannot pass a Judgment upon these Mysterious Secrets; nay, rather he'll be Scandalized (as many are) when he hears of the Wonders which the Divine Love is wont to work in Souls, because he finds no such Rarities in his own."

Graftedbranch

 2005/11/30 20:31Profile
Graftedbranc
Member



Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
To claim you are not a denomination or a sect when your little group is the very definition of a denomination or sect!



The apostle Paul was commisioned by God and through him God established many churches. He was among them and labored among them preaching and teaching. He also wrote many epistles to them. And when he found within their midst a party spirit saying, "I am of Paul' he severly rebuked them and brought them back to the centrality of Christ.

Does this make those churches a "cult"? Are they in the same vein as "Ellen G. White?

Do the local churches elevate "Witness Lee or Watchman Nee above the scriptures? Are there any revelations which are embraced or adheared to which are "extra biblical?' The answer is no.

Are the local churches legalistic as the 7th day adventist? Do they preach another Christ as the Jehovah's witnesses? Are they heretical in doctrine? The answer to all these is no.

If there were a move of God in this age of genuine Christianity and the church LIfe, what would it look like? Would it fit into the concepts of most evangelical Christians? Would it be in the norm of tradition? Are we so spooked by the "boogy men" of the heretical sects that we deem anything which is out of our mind set to be "cultish"?

Let's be honest. If there were a genuine move of God and a recovery of New Testament Christianity today even if you don't see the local churches as "it". It would not be received, It would be considered a cult by the mainstream. The mainstream just can't imagine God doing anything outside of or apart from them.

Jim Moran said to me, "why would God, with so many fine theological institutions choose to use some unknown Chinese man to bring these things to light? My reply was, " for consider your calling brethren, that there are not many wise according to the flesh, not many powerful, not many wellborn. but God has chosen the foolish things of the world that He might shame those who are wise. and God has chosen the wealk things of the world that He might shame the things that are strong. And the lowborn things of the world and the despised things God has chosen things which "are not, that He might bring to nought the things which are so that no flesh may boast before God"

I have expressed many views in many forums in this web sight. I can testify that my views are the views of the recovery. But I do not base them there but in the scriptures. They are not my views because I am in the recovery or a 'follower of witness Lee" but rather they are my views because I see in the scritpures what the recovery and Brother Lee sees. Not everyone agrees with what I have said, but I ask you, Are they heretical? Do they deny the Person and work of Christ and His work in us? Do they deny the authority of the scritpures? Is there any hint of the denial of the New Birth and regeneration by grace through faith in His Name? Am I legalistic?
The answer is no.

I suggest the real thing has been going on for the past 70 years through the minisry of Watchman Nee in China, moving to Tiawan and the US and from here to the uttermost parts of the world. Today there are over 3000 local churches worldwide, 300 in the US, 300 in Russia, many in Isreal, and hundreds elsewhere.

I am also not suggesting that there is no "genuiness or reality" anywhere else. But I believe it is a genuine work of the Spirit to recover to the church many things that have been lost and neglected by the mainstream.

Graftedbranch

 2005/11/30 20:48Profile
Graftedbranc
Member



Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
To claim you are not a denomination or a sect when your little group is the very definition of a denomination or sect!



Brother,

The definition of a denomination is a group that denominates itself by adopting a name. That is what "denomination" is. It is to formaly adopt a name which represents your "sect".

A sect may or may not be a denomination. You can be a sect but not be a denomination if you don't denominate yourself.

To say, " we choose not to denominate oursleves but just meet as believers who are members of the church in our locality which includes every beiever in our locality whether they meet with us or not, certianly does not make us a denomination.

The Church in Corinth was not a denomination, nor was it a sect. The Church in Ephesis was not a denomination neither was it a sect. The Church in Thessalonica was not a denomination nor a sect. And each of these churches were established by Paul and Paul labored along with co-workers and wrote epistles to them, But they were neiter a sect of Paul nor a denomination, They were just the church in their city.

We are not inherently special people. We are those who see in the "bible that the body of Christ is one and therefore we should not denominate ourselves but just meet as simple believers as the church which is not an orginization but is an orginism not exclusive to us but inclusive of all believers.

If others see this as a "denomination" then that is how they see it. But that is not the ground we take.

The "recovery" is not a name of any group. It is not "our name". To say we are "in the Lord's recovery" is not to say we have joined any movement or group, but that we are participating by Grace in that which we see that the Lord is doing. It is a descritpion of something the Lord is doing. It is a process the Lord has been engaged in for centuries. Primarily since the reformation. And the recovery today is just in that flow. It is what the Lord is doing in recovering things lost to the church through tradition false teachings, philosopheis, and teachings of men which crept in shortly after the Apostlic age and brought in the "Dark Ages" which lasted nearly 1000 years.

And in every age as the Lord worked to restore the lost things, (Justifiecation by faith, Salvation by Grace, Christ as the Head of the Church and no Pope, the Priesthood of all believers, etc) The same accusations, the same resistance from the "mainstream" has sought to villify those who were instumental and to suppress it and to discredit it in an effort to maintain the status quo.

This is a fact of church History.

Graftedbranch


 2005/12/2 16:58Profile
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 Re:

I think this conversation has gone far enough and really don't think its needs to be discussed anymore. ie the fruitful of it is being lost.

[b]this forum is being locked[/b]


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 2005/12/2 17:02Profile





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