SermonIndex Audio Sermons
SermonIndex - Promoting Revival to this Generation
Give To SermonIndex
Discussion Forum : News and Current Events : IRS going after a church

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 )
PosterThread
dohzman
Member



Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re:

No offense bro. but you know nothing about the federally siezed multi- millions of dollars the government has already taken from the US Steel workers pension funds and have tied up for more than 7 years, not to mention dozens of other funds that regular folks have placed of thier own monies in simular pension funds. Then we can talk about emmient domain where towns are already taking property from private ownership and paying below market re-placement value. As to the IRS it runs an on going war collecting an estimated 5 billion dollars per year illegally, and that's according to "thier own figures" published under the Freedom of Information Act". Many churches use less than 1% per $100.00 dollars on any kind of missions or local outreach. Much of that is due to inflated overhead and building expenses. On the local level there is very little accountability and pastors spend monies within the church budgets foolishly, they'll buy things like computer systems for the offices and spend thousands more for a system than what you or I would have paid for the same system. No real accountability. Church has become Big Buisness and everyone sees it. The government will soon remove the exempt statis from the church because of all the foolish spending habits, I mean I can name several ministries that have thier own private jets!

I don't hate the church, but I do hate the direction organized religion is going and its priority structure. It's unfortunate that some good ministries will suffer because of the excesses of other ministries, but God is able to hide and keep that which reflects His character and Nature in righteousness and perseve them blameless in this present corrupt world.


_________________
D.Miller

 2005/11/12 23:48Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Quote:
No offense bro. but you know nothing about the federally siezed multi- millions of dollars the government has already taken...


No offense taken brother! I was thinking of the kind of collectivization policies you were describing when I made my comment. Lenin would be impressed by the IRS in some cases.

For what it's worth my previous church was very much like the kind you and Karl were describing. We were only a congregation of around 400 people, but the leadership had almost a million dollars in the bank and were still borrowing more money and running big building drives for further expansion...meanwhile they put needy people in the church through "stewardship" classes before ever considering helping them. Then a visiting speaker would come in and the pastor could exort the congregation to choke up 13,000 dollars in one service to buy the guy a new car.

I could have put my three children through most any college in the country with the money I gave that place before I woke up and left. I'm sure not a penny I gave was invested in eternity. It's a lifetime shame.

Yet, even so, I know of many good churches that are small and the pastor or his wife are still having to work jobs to support themselves. Most churches aren't big businesses...I've come to believe that there are many more godly hard working pastors and elders, (and laypeople) then we know about...the problem is that their quiet service by nature doesn't afford them the visibility that television or advertising gives fatter organizations. Most of the good churches are invisible to all but their own local communities.

Now while I think they would keep serving the Lord even if they lost their non-profit staus, I would hate to see the extra burden placed on them.

Besides, if these wealthy churches that are being run by ambitious pastorprenuers lose their tax emempt status all that will happen is the church will become a full fledged business. Instead of taking "donations" for "gifts" they'll just lose the pretense and start merchandising thier stuff...nothing will change.

The only pastors that will get hurt by taxes are those pastors that don't have anything to sell.


MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2005/11/13 0:14Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro mike

Quote:
ambitious pastorprenuers


now that's an interesting word...it should be in a dictionary.

my comfort in all this shadiness and God-robbery is that the Lord knows all and sees all and will reward such as He sees fit.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2005/11/13 0:34Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 ERS

Quote:
Then a visiting speaker would come in and the pastor could exort the congregation to choke up 13,000 dollars in one service to buy the guy a new car.


Funny and ironic, that's just a bit under my obligation to the ERS (Eternal Revenue Service) It's due in part to a failed contracting business and yes it's been faithful monthly payments, never was a dodge just the way things happened. Render unto Caesar and Caeser's 'Palace' and his guards and... Not bitter in the least, but it is awfully difficult for small business's these days so my sympathy would be equal to ...
Quote:
I know of many good churches that are small and the pastor or his wife are still having to work jobs to support themselves.


Quote:
the problem is that their quiet service by nature doesn't afford them the visibility that television or advertising gives fatter organizations. Most of the good churches are invisible to all but their own local communities.


Ah yes, but highly visible where it really counts.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2005/11/13 1:31Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779


 Re:

Hi Neilgin...

I agree with the notion that there are alot of other groups that are "[i]clothed in priestly vestments leading sheep astray[/i]." Hypocrisy is rampant and can be found politically in both the left and right, as well as with the Christian or the non-Christian. However, this is often the same argument used by nonbelievers concerning their lack of faith in Christ. They claim that they don't want to give their hearts to the Lord because there are so many hypocrites in the "church." I usually tell such individuals that I [u]agree[/u] with them -- but that this fact does not change the topic at hand.

The fact that there is some hypocrisy within some of those that are mockingly referred to as the [i]religious right[/i] does not change the fact that the platform of the entire Democratic Party calls for [u]complete[/u] freedom for abortion to all (including abortions paid for by the state), as well as making such abortions more easily available to all (including minors as young as twelve years old without parental notification). The Democratic Party Platform also demands state recognition of "gay marriage."

There is quite a bit of mean-spirited unsubstantiated rhetoric that is included within that platform – and I suppose that the same could probably be said of every party’s platform. Granted, not everything in the DNC National Platform is evil like their demands for abortion “rights” and homosexual marriage. There are actually alot of good things that are included within the party platform. I totally agree with much of the social work intended to help the poor and downcast. However, I do not always agree with the means called for by the DNC to go about it. Ironically, the platform even calls for America to “[u]stay the course[/u]” in Iraq until the job is complete.

Personally, I do not blindly vote for a “party.” I vote on the issues that I deem to be the most important. I will not vote for a person who [u]openly[/u] and [u]vocally[/u] supports abortion. Some of the men that you stated that you would like to see become President (like Democratic Senator Barrack Obama and former Democratic Senator John Edwards) openly support [i]abortion, gay marriage[/i], and [i]stem cell research from aborted babies[/i]. When abortion first became legal, liberals attempted to argue that [i]a fetus is not alive[/i] (instead, they argued, [i]a fetus is just tissue matter[/i]). As science and reason became more clearly understood, liberals stopped using that argument. Currently, they use less decisive rhetoric. They often attempt to argue that abortion is a "terrible process" – but one that is a “private decision” between a woman and her conscience. In other words, a woman can [u]murder[/u] her unborn child because she feels that this is a matter of privacy. That is hypocrisy in its most modern, devilish form! And when liberals are confronted about this hypocrisy, they try to argue that “conservatives do not [u]really[/u] want to stop abortion either.” They seem to forget the Congressional Record that demonstrates that the conservative votes are the ones that repeatedly attempt to outlaw this slaughter.

When I interviewed President Carter during my graduate thesis research, I was impressed with the genuine attitude by which he seemed to honestly answer my questions. He seemed quite sincere. He is one of the few anti-abortion Democrats that exert major influence on the party. We spoke about topics ranging from the Iran Hostage Crisis, the current situation in Iraq and Afghanistan, to his involvement with his local Church. However, I was instructed that I could not ask questions about such “controversial social issues.” Other than that, I was quite impressed. But this was no different than many of the other Governors and Congressmen that I met at a Governors Conference a few years ago (while I was representing NASA). I was able to spend some quality time with several Governors and members of Congress during the conference. But the most interesting things that I learned came during our free time – at the beach, restaurant, bus rides, and just relaxation time. I was amazed at how “normal” most of these men and women were. I did not feel intimidated by their intelligence or importance. Believe it or not, some of them were actually rather shy. There were several professing Christians among them – and at least a few of them seemed totally dedicated to Christ. I was invited to join a few of them (five Republicans and a Democrat) in prayer one morning. I didn’t know what to expect, but they all seemed very sincere in their love for the Lord!

Whenever I hear a person who loves the Lord openly mock or criticize President Bush using arguments that are unfounded (except with “proof” that is really just unsubstantiated slanderous accusations by the media or liberal institutions), I notice that I feel sad in my heart. This has become increasingly common amongst liberal churches, as is the case with this particular “church” that the IRS is investigating. As far as I understand, most of us do not know President Bush. Yet so many liberal believers have made accusations going so far as to question or verbally doubt his profession of faith. I do not know whether or not the President is truly born again. But neither does anyone on this planet. Instead of openly and vocally criticizing and slandering this man – why don’t we just pray for him? Yes, we can and should question his actions. But unless we have firsthand knowledge of his decisions, we are in no position to judge him (or other members of his administration).

During the scandal involving President Clinton and Monica Lewinski, I prayed for the President daily. I did not agree with Clinton on much of his liberal political philosophy – but I did not try to accuse him of things that I heard from conservative "talking heads." I did not laugh at him when his moral failures were exposed by the release of his Grand Jury testimony and subsequent confession. I prayed for him – that he would turn wholeheartedly toward the Lord. The same is true now. I pray for the President – that the Lord would do inside of him all that I am asking for myself.

Indeed, the Lord’s return is soon. There is a lot of dark times ahead for this world. Those believers that are “post-trib” feel that we will go through the Great Tribulation. Thus, in their perspective, everything is part of this world system that will welcome the anti-Christ. Those believers that are “pre-trib” feel that, while the days do grow darker as the day approaches, the Church will miss the wrath of God. There are some who believe that there will be a “great, last day revival” before the Lord’s return. And then there are those who believe that it is all a farce, and since darkness is inevitable, we should just let it happen and prepare for the worst. Charles Finney also believed, like many other believers in history, that the Lord’s return was at hand. Yet he still preached from town to town to get right with the Lord. Eventually, he became the President of a college (Oberlin College).

While Paul did not become a direct “part” of the political system in Rome, he did partake in that system in order to “appeal unto Caesar” (Philippians 4:22; Acts 25; Acts 28; Romans 13:1). Christ taught about participation in government, such as paying taxes (Mark 12). Its funny, but many of the people calling for less Christian involvement in politics are often the ones most involved at criticizing the Government (or the President) in the first place.

Like I wrote before, I constantly struggle about what the extent of my political involvement should be. I pray for the Lord to direct my steps – especially since I see so many attacks, slanderous accusations of bigotry, and general mockery on Christianity from liberals on the left. I feel torn, partly because I research such issues. I do request a lot of prayer in this, because I have had several opportunities to become more involved. I recently helped organize a forum opposing the Minuteman Project along the U.S./Mexico border. I have also participated in several other civil rights issues for racial and ethnic minorities. In addition, I have participated in several meetings to ensure continued First Amendment protection for public and private religious liberty. Sometimes I feel as if I am accomplishing something, but then I also feel torn. I am praying for greater clarity in this. I have several choices to make following graduation in December – including whether to pursue employment with NASA using my Engineering background (BS in EE/CS), or to pursue employment using my Political Science (BA) and Foreign Policy (MA) background. Please continue to pray for me in this.

:-)

http://www.democrats.org/pdfs/2004platform.pdf

http://obama.senate.gov/news/050707-obama_listens_to_residents_concerns/

http://www.issues2000.org/2004/John_Edwards_Abortion.htm

http://www.ontheissues.org/Senate/Barack_Obama.htm#Abortion

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051112/pl_nm/rights_gaymarriage_dc


_________________
Christopher

 2005/11/13 2:41Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re: ERS

Quote:
ERS Eternal Revenue Service



and

Quote:
Render unto Caesar and Caeser's 'Palace'



Loved those.

Quote:
but it is awfully difficult for small business's these days



I agree. I'm feelin'you bro.

Quote:
Ah yes, but highly visible where it really counts...



...most of all to Him who watches in secret.:-)

Blessings,

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2005/11/13 15:04Profile





All sermons are offered freely and all contents of the site
where applicable is committed to the public domain for the
free spread of the gospel.