I said I wouldn't keep fanning this conversation but I think it's fair to note when I learn something new.

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Mike Compton

This post might be a bit rambling, forgive me for that.

The genesis of this thread, all saints getting slapped about by the IRS, be wary of your joy at their travails. Are they apostates leading sheep astray?

yes, most definitely. But they are not the only ones clothed in priestly vestments leading sheep astray. When the IRS is used as a tool to stifle dissent, the slope gets slippery.

You referenced not using third hand source material. In intelligence work, sometimes all you have is third, fourth hand material , and your own analysis skills....and some discernment.

Its not that I'm judging the President's heart, or his salvation, it's the fruit...the fruit of the Spirit that is evident in the mans' life and his leadership that TO ME do not ring true. When he speaks I do NOT see love, or patience......thats my discernment.

When I consider President Carter, another self professed follower of Jesus, I see the fruits of the Spirit. I see a man personally invested in Habitat for Humanity, and I see a man who writes of things of the faith. (Contrast that with President Bush the first....the Carlyle group?)

You interviewed him....what did you see?

And do you know how hard the National Security State endevoured to get that godly leader out of office?

I asked many questions about the hostage rescue attempt....these are questions that you will never get answers to...on paper...that's the way it is with state secrets.

You asked before, out loud I presume, should a believer become involved in politics. I can't tell you what to do. (lol) only give my own testimony, transparently.

I would like to see either Sen Barack Obama(D-IL), or Rep Harold Ford Jr. (D-Tenn) elected President. I doubt ...right now, that either would be deemed "ready". So I go to my own personal B choice, which is John Edwards. Because I am looking to work in New Hampshire circa late 07. I started to investigate, looking (writing) on blogs, seeing what the man is about..etc etc etc.

and the Lord led me to this, especially in the light of what happened to other believers (Rove, DeLay, Frist, Reed) if you mess about in worldly political systems, and muck about in the fleshly trash of empire....you get mucked up.

Paul PREACHED to the imperial guard, he witnessed Christ to the rulers of this world, he did not JOIN the power structure of the Empire.

Do you get me? Do you get what I'm saying?

Hence, I made a personal decision in the Holy Ghost, that I would not become involved in Democratic party politics, because Paul [b]did not join the power structure of the Empire.[/b]

I love you too brother...you remind me of my mentor, my brother Pastor Ted. he's very Republican, we just don't have a lot of political dialogues.....we talk about ministry and we talk about Scripture, and family.

Love is gentle.

I'm sorry this comment is slightly out of synch...

this has been most interesting and eye-openning. personally my feeling is this, politics have a way of distracting us from the great commission. we should be ever-conscious of the leadings of the Spirit of God lest we go down the wrong road. Let each of us seek the Lord earnestly about what He would have us do and then do no more nor less. i love this country as we all do but let us not lose sight that ultimately our allegience is to heaven and to Christ who bought us by His own blood. this is not to say that we should neglect america but rather we should do whatever Christ asks concerning our nation, anything more or less is disobedience and is from self and doesn't glorify God. We should not be ignorant of what's going on either but instead if in seeing all these things the Lord burdens us to do something to respond with all dilligence.

given the most precarious state of our economy (deficits, scandals etc), military (in light of chinese military buildup, india obtaining nukes and stretched out forces), government (more scandals, increasing public distrust etc), and most importantly spiritual state (increasing contempt for God) there is one thing which is certain. at some point soon our nation as we know it shall collapse and cease to exist as it is now. this will ultimately affect the whole world. at that point only 1 thing will matter, are we allied with Christ or not. let us all fall on our faces and repent, repent and repent some more before an all-Holy, all Sovereign, almighty God and He shall surely give us grace enough to endure what is to come.

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Farai Bamu

Thank you for that word.

God bless you sir.

I'm going to write something here and I hope noone gets to upset with me. I agree with much of whats been said here.
We live in America but our citizenship is in Heaven, like Abraham we look for a city who s builder and maker is God. Our hope is in the same God who was able to sustain the early christians in the Roman Cats... in caves and with no certain dwelling place.
I'm sick of the multimillion dollar church buildings with thier multimillon dollar church budgets that only produce 1/2 cent per $100.00 SPENDING on missions and outreach funding domestic and foriegn. Sure there are some great churches and organizations that are doing a wonderful Christ honoring work but they have fallen into the exception rather than the rule catagory.
God is going to use the very thing the church covets most to bring it down, MONEY, greed, Power, and social acceptance. Just like Israel we haven't yet learned that we don't belong to this corrupt world, and that the resources we have are to be invested in eternal things like reaching the lost, enabling those with the burden of the Lord to go, storing up treasures in heaven and not here on earth! I say , let the IRS do what they will. Maybe when the organized churches have nothing left they be forced to look up. The church seems to operate best when it has lest anyway!

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D.Miller

Its about time the tax man is going after the churches. I see God in this, as the Church is so stingy in helping thier own, God will fish it out of them one way or another.

Let me tell you a story that happened in our city. A woman who was a faithful giver at a church that she was attending for many years. In the process of time, she became financially strapped where she could not pay her tithe. When it came time that she needed some food, that church (a well to do pentecostal church) turned her away because according to their books she hadn't given in a few months.

I had heard similiar stories over the years.

God has a way of reducing a man's pride, and I agree with another member who said, that there would be alot of churches being auctioned off--Good it's about time, less churches means less money hungry control freak pastors and deacons.

Man, I hate injustice in the body of Christ.

Karl

AMEN

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D.Miller

Huh...While I understand everyone's frustration with those wealthy 5 star churches...I am bug-eyed at seeing everyone cheer the IRS on. Maybe the IRS should raise your taxes or even take your property...if it's so good for your souls. Better yet, why not just donate our deeds and retirement accounts to the government?

Please, let's not burn the good trees in the forest for the sake of the rotted ones! :-?

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Mike Compton