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 Secular opinon of church life in Toronto, Canada


When I read this I almost wept.. what confusion and madness this is. May God purify his bride and send a revival that will do that. The world is mocking and analzying the church, the wicked are brazen in their sin and not ashamed. Rather we who would be holy are ashamed! Oh God move ... pour water on the dry ground of Toronto. please for your name sake!

http://www.eye.net/eye/issue/issue_05.17.01/news/prophet.html


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2005/11/6 22:48Profile
groh_frog
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Joined: 2005/1/5
Posts: 432


 Re: Secular opinon of church life in Toronto, Canada

What? Marketing to "whoever we can get"? That's honestly disgusting. That's what we're relying on: Marketing that appeals to sinners.

I know there's a few good, hones, hard-core street preachers out there. Some I've met on this site. And I think I'd go crazy if not for them. And seeing this "sell out" of Christ.

I return home to the U.S. in a couple of months, and when I get there, I plan on being on the streets with my brohter in Christ- not "marketing" my church, but serving the Lord, and convicting sinners of their need for repentance and Jesus Christ.

We've got a lot of church history's back-tracking to overcome.

Grace and Peace...

 2005/11/7 7:36Profile
Compton
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Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re: Advertising Church

In each age the church created art that was either influencing and influenced by contemporary culture. Since western culture is have evolved into hyper-consumerism, it follows that Christian communication follows suit. This centuries contribution to the legacy of the Christian icon is coarse print and [url=http://fredericksburg.com/News/FLS/2004/082004/08142004/1449580]television advertising[/url].

All is excused under the banner of pragmatic strategy. In the United States churches are luring visitors with fabulous prizes like free gasoline, motorcycles, and [url=http://www.sptimes.com/2005/01/10/Hillsborough/Church_s_Hummer_prize.shtml]H2 Hummers.[/url] But apparently there are limits to mixing Consumerism and faith in American culture; the the Rolling Stone magazine rejected a [url=http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2005-01-17-bible-ad_x.htm]Zondervan Advertisement[/url] for a new hip bible.

In Australia a denomination hired a secular ad agency to craft the campaign [url=http://www.jesusallaboutlife.com.au/]Jesus, All About Life[/url]

Still not all modern advertisement for the church is bad. (In my opinion...) [url=http://www.thebatt.com/media/paper657/news/2004/11/18/News/Evangelist.Billy.Graham.Comes.Full.Circle.With.La.Mission-809718.shtml]Billy Graham Crusade[/url]

I think the ultimate problem with these pop culture appeals is the artificiality and unreality that is associated with modern advertisement. Modern consumers deep down inside know that advertising is used to sell fantasies, such as looking better, getting richer, or eating fatter. Communicating the gospel through the idiom of slick advertising is to associate reality with unreality. It's the catch 22...Western Christians want to be relevant to the dominant culture of the west which is pop culture but the problem is that pop culture is designed to be plastic, cheap, and disposable.

The world knows this and laughs at us when we use pop culture to communicate our most precious truths.

MC


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Mike Compton

 2005/11/7 10:07Profile
Agent001
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Joined: 2003/9/30
Posts: 386
Toronto, Ontario, Canada

 Re:

I fail to see within the original article any section that properly describes the "marketing skills" involved.

All the article described is the distribution of pamphlets and tracts, a not-so-recent method of spreading the good news.

Remember, this is a secular newspaper that will put a negative bent on [i]anything[/i] that Christians do.

The article also failed to describe the growing and thriving ethnic evangelical churches (Chinese, Korean, etc.) in the downtown core, choosing rather to cast a unnecessarily negative picture.


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Sam

 2005/11/7 10:54Profile
groh_frog
Member



Joined: 2005/1/5
Posts: 432


 Re:

Well, actually the article did talk about one specific tract-making company that has multi-million dollar profits by selling their product to street evangelists.

But honestly, weather the artile mentioned it or not, this is a very valid point. Just look around you. You can buy "Jesus and Me" t-shirts, hats, bible covers, you name it. No faith needed. It's a popular show and tell, material christianity that many people are going to church for on Sunday.

Regardless of the fact that it's a secular paper, the negative image it casts should, in this case, be a wake-up call. Those are the churches the world has to choose from? The one that does no outreach, and the one that's just another big business? It's being mocked, and for good reason.

What's that Ravenhill quote, "the world isn't waiting for a new definiton of Christianity, it's waiting for a new demostration of Christianity!" It's sad to see this as being so prevalent, such a perversion in the spotlight.

Now, there's some real, God-fearing churches out there. But not many. When my wife and I moved to the town we're in now, do you know how long it took us just to find a respectable, doctrially straight church? It was amazing to see what's being taught, sold, marketed.

Anyway, it's something to pray about.

Grace and Peace...

 2005/11/8 0:39Profile
Sir_Edward
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Joined: 2005/10/19
Posts: 124
Michigan

 Re:

So let me get this straight -- if a mainline church uses marketing strategies and offers a gospel to suit the flesh side of a person then that is OK. but if a man simply preaches the gospel or hands out a tract then he is marketing them away from these churches? So as long as truth is relative it is OK to market the gospel but you can't present the gospel as it really is. Sad, very sad that we have come to the point in the western church that if a person simply asks the question of -- 'Are you sure your born again?' he is accused of marketing. So much for the pursuit of truth.

This article shows how much power the market motivated corporate church has -- it is acceptable to a hostle media -- isn't that interesting. Didn't Ravenhill say something about if our message is accepted with the world there is sometihng wrong with it?

Blessings.


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Ed Raby

 2005/11/8 9:54Profile
Yodi
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Joined: 2004/4/23
Posts: 663
Escondido, California

 Re: Secular opinon of church life in Toronto, Canada

On prayer, I read once that when entering into spiritual warfare, it's good to pray specifically. It's like trying to throw a dart at the bull's eye of a dart board. If you don't focus in on the center, you're just going to hit somewhere on the outside. Since you live in Toronto, you personally know people you could be praying for with urgency, belief and persistance. And believers need prayer just as much as nonbelievers do. So start with your own family, and work your way out to long time friends and acquaintances and see what God does with that. And of course, keep bringing yourself before God, asking Him to help you continue to be a light and example to all those that know you the best and closest, to those who may just know you in passing.

I am still fond of Toronto and think it's a beautiful city. That would be awesome to see God get ahold of it, starting with individual lives. And what precious individuals I met, that are still in my thoughts and prayers. I will pray for those I know of individually, of course, including you and your ministry. =)


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Yolanda Fields

 2005/11/8 12:21Profile
ginnyrose
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Joined: 2004/7/7
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Mississippi

 Re: Secular opinon of church life in Toronto, Canada

Greg,
This article/site must be pretty bad..my ISP filter is blocking it so I can not even access it to read it!

ginnyrose


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Sandra Miller

 2005/11/13 17:06Profile
sermonindex
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 Re:

Here is the whole article posted here:

[b]The prophet motive[/b]

Evangelical tract distributors use marketing skills to woo the faithful away from mainline churches

BY ELAINE O'CONNOR

Les stands on the east side of Bathurst, in front of the subway station. All day, streetcars swerve into the station and cars race to beat the lights as the large man bobs his head and shakes a tin. From this patch of pavement, he hands out religious pamphlets and takes in donations every Wednesday, wearing a safari vest and buttons that read "Jesus loves you" and "I may be slow, but I'm smart."

Across the street, but a world away, is the Catholic Information Centre. Behind it stands the tower of St. Peter's Church, a banner slapping its side: "Be Reconciled to God. We Welcome Returning Catholics." Two different sides of the street, two different approaches, one goal: to plant faith in the inner city. But it's not the folks in the brick building who are succeeding so much as the scruffy man on the street.

A few blocks east, Tom stands on the north side of Bloor at Walmer, waving his scriptures at passersby who mostly ignore him. Tracts, flyers, litter -- it's all the same to them. Tom is used to this; he's been at it 20 years. A thick, greying man, he sat in a church pew for most of his 69 years, but he admits in his Eastern European accent, "I just went to church like store." Then the Spirit woke him and he began to speak in tongues.

The Spirit was bought, indirectly, from American missionaries at Tom's Toronto Airport Pentecostal Church. Tom gets his scriptures, stamped with a cross and offering God's Simple Plan of Salvation, from his church, which buys them for 3 cents apiece from the Americans. "Be sure you are saved," they entreat. "Do not trust your feelings. They change."

So did Tom, who won't speak about the time before he was saved, and looks around suspiciously when he's asked for his last name. "People call you names all the time," he says. "Sometimes they try to hit you or throw things. There are many possessed by demons." The ones who aren't sometimes take a tract. "I go where the Lord sends me," Tom explains. "I'm satisfied to do anything in the Lord. The Lord leads me."

Other than that, there is seemingly no strategy to street preaching. Yet these pamphleteers are front-line salesmen for a Christian publishing empire driven by the prophet motive.

"Every morning I ask where God wants me to go," says Patrick, a small, brittle Englishman. "Usually He tells me to go to Bloor and Runnymede. Today He said, 'Go to Honest Ed's.'" So that's where Patrick is, clutching his pamphlets like a deck of cards.

"Are you looking forward to the afterlife?" he asks suddenly. Patrick is. He found his way to Canada in '76, then got lost in drink. He found God in a Pentecostal church in Toronto.

"I speak in tongues," he says. "I can draw demons out of people." He gazes over the intersection. "It's very fruitful here. There are lots of people looking for something." Then, muttering, "I have to go to McDonald's," he leaves quickly, as if rushing to get in before the doors shut.

But what is closing in this neighbourhood is not fast-food franchises, but churches where men like Les, Tom and Patrick, as well as struggling couples and uprooted families, can go for community, guidance and faith. Membership in traditional urban Christian churches has been dropping, because demographics have changed and churches haven't.

Street preachers understand that the way to reach believers is to speak their language -- and the medium is advertising. As the Church's influence in urban areas has eroded, religious consumerism has risen to take its place. Christian publishers, not to mention entertainment companies and broadcasters, have an eye on the Biblical bottom line, and slowly churches are realizing that they, too, have to market faith and reposition their entire product line -- sermons, ceremonies, social services -- or risk losing their market share.

Scripture Gift Mission Canada has gained a chunk of this market. SGM pamphlets are the Mercedes of tracts -- slick and glossy, with full-colour graphics and few spelling mistakes. Some pamphleteers distribute them exclusively because of their appeal. Within the publishing para-church there is brand loyalty, but drawing this kind of devotion takes planning.

"There is a whole process," explains Jim Wright, one of two employees at SGM Canada's Markham office. The material is produced in England, where committees ensure each tract is 90 to 95 per cent scripture and evaluate its cultural relevance, language and graphics. Then, before the Word of God is released to the public, it is test-marketed.

It's a winning formula. "In Canada last year we distributed 400,000 tracts," Wright says. "Worldwide it was 24 million." Wright says his clients are mainly Baptists and Pentecostals, and they need not send cheques: SGM Canada is "non-profit-making" and has survived on donations and bequests since 1947.

Still, compared to the Canadian Bible Society, SGM is in the burning bush leagues. The CBS, a non-profit organization founded in 1904, distributes up to 20 per cent of the scripture products in Canada. Its pamphlets are short and sweet, for good reason. "Sometimes people aren't prepared to read the whole thing," says distribution manager David Doncan. "We're fighting the culture, really, because there are so many distractions. So the pamphlets are in bite-sized pieces, and the scriptures are in modern language."

Doncan says the pamphlets are aimed at people with the literacy level of readers of The Toronto Sun or People. As he puts it, "They are simple enough for a child to read."

This strategy has won CBS a thriving business: last year it mailed out 5 million pamphlets, 625,000 of them to central Ontario, and saw gross revenues of $11.8 million.

It would seem that large Christian companies are living off individual donations. Fifty-eight per cent of their revenue, about $7 million, comes from contributions, while 23 per cent comes from legacies. Sales of Bibles to distributors account for another 11 per cent, and the rest rolls in as interest on investments. The faithful, it seems, are financially solvent.

"We're very mission-driven," Doncan boasts, his voice swelling as if his figures were tracking the growth of God's own army. Sure enough, he tries to add one more Christian soldier. "Have you heard of the Unionville Alliance Church?" he asks. "You should come to our Sunday service -- it will really blow your mind."

Blowing the minds of non-believers is at the top of most Christian business agendas. Faith is a four-letter word these days -- the only groups showing a steady increase are evangelical Protestant sects and para-religious groups that redefine what a church is altogether.

But the scope of commercial religious publishing is astounding, and growing. Pamphlets from Calgary's New Life Printing Service, Kitchener's Christ the Way Publications Inc. and New Brunswick's Gospel Tract and Bible Society can be found on the streets of Toronto.

On the Evangelical Tract Distributors Web site, believers can order to suit every mood -- from Sharing Christ Through Tract Evangelism to Why Am I Here? For youth, there are 1950s-style primers: A Street Meeting and Jimmy Watson and When Your Wild Oats Ripen. For sinners, the forbidding Awful Death of a Young Infidel and Doom of a Drunkard drive home the point. The Alberta-based company stocks almost 650 -- tracts for New Year's, Halloween and Thanksgiving; tracts on cults, drugs and the Second Coming; tracts in Cree, Urdu and Maltese; tracts in large print for seniors and verse for children.

With such a cornucopia of fast-food communion on offer, how can traditional churches compete? Many are finding they can't. The Faith Temple on Broadview is a perfect example of urban church decay. When its founding pastor died a few years ago, most of its adherents, who had travelled from Pickering and Unionville to hear him speak, lost interest. Now the church is struggling to keep its remaining 70 members. Church administrator Rob Jackson says that over the past nine years he has watched the church lose its relevance to the community.

Churches with the largest losses, says Jackson, are downtown Protestant branches whose affluent members have fled to the 905 region, and losing middle-income families means losing their collection-plate contributions. Last fall, in an attempt to boost sagging attendance, the Faith Temple congregation went door-to-door with ads for the church. "I guess you could call it a marketing tool," Jackson says, "but I don't think it will work."

In Regent Park, Capt. Geoff Ryan, a fourth-generation Salvation Army officer, and his wife, Capt. Sandra Ryan, are trying to make their church work without handing out pamphlets. After "church planting" (building new congregations) in Russia for nine years, the couple is now trying Regent Park. According to Ryan, residents have access to social services, but don't have a sense of community, particularly a faith-based one.

Ryan says pamphleteering is more fulfilling for the converted than for the preached to. "Someone can come down from the suburbs to Yonge Street and say, 'That's what sin looks like,' and hand out tracts and feel good about 'saving' people, but personally, I think it's next to useless," he insists. "I mean, are you going to change somebody's life through a piece of paper they get on the street? I doubt it. You need a church setting, where people can get hooked and observe how what a person says jibes with how they live." That's why the Ryans live in the area.

Yet ministry at even the most basic level is challenging in a district composed of over 40 ethnic groups. Churches in the area have tended to splinter faith groups along ethnic lines. The Ryans' new congregation aims to bring them together.

At its first meeting in March, the Regent Park church preached in seven languages. With the aid of translation devices, the English sermon could be understood by a Tamil family in the front row, a Russian woman seated behind them and a Cantonese couple on her left, while stragglers in the back could follow along in their Spanish and French-language Bibles. But this sort of outreach doesn't come cheap -- the church will eat up about $150,000 in its first year.

"It's not a matter of building a flock and keeping it together," Ryan explains. "People are fluid, especially in the inner city. We'll minister to whomever we get."

Which, essentially, is the approach used by Les, who stands at his post, ministering to whomever he gets. Because God knows how many people on his corner need to be saved.

ARE TRADITIONAL CHURCHES LOSING GROUND?

BY AMY GAJARIA & PATRICIA LIMA

ROMAN CATHOLIC ARCHDIOCESE OF TORONTO

INCREASE/DECREASE: Based on "educated guesses" and judging from growing parishes, membership has been on the rise, says Suzanne Scorsone, communications director.

WHY: "Many of the immigrants who come here are from countries with large Catholic populations," says Scorsone. "We're part of Canada's open door."

PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH OF CANADA

INCREASE/DECREASE: Toronto-area membership has dropped by more than 5,000 since 1991.

WHY: "People are doing more church 'shopping'... visiting church to church but not becoming members," says Keith Knight, associate secretary..

ANGLICAN DIOCESE OF TORONTO

INCREASE/DECREASE: Membership has remained stable at some 40,000 for the past 10 years.

WHY: "A lot of young families are coming back to the church because they want some sort of spiritual direction for their children," says communications assistant Ann Castro.

LUTHERAN CHURCH OF CANADA

INCREASE/DECREASE: Toronto-area membership has dropped to 2,000, down 600 from 1995's total.

WHY: "There's a general apathy toward the church," says Diane Engles, administrative secretary.


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2005/11/13 20:50Profile
Agent001
Member



Joined: 2003/9/30
Posts: 386
Toronto, Ontario, Canada

 Re:

I did read the whole article before I write my previous post.

I still fail to see why "we who would be holy are ashamed."

All I could see is the secular newspaper trying to put the most negative spin on all things Christian.

I am a Torontonian myself. This "paper" is given away freely to promote homosexual and other alternative lifestyles, etc. Even some of my non-believing friends refuse to read it. If we want hard facts about Toronto so that we can pray, then this is the worst place to look. Let's not waste time reading and analying this [b]junk[/b]!


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Sam

 2005/11/15 11:29Profile





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