| Poster | Thread | Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
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| | Re: | | The second part of previous post.
if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
Did Jesus forgive your sins, or did the Father?
Mark 2:5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.
Luk 5:20 And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.
Luk 7:48 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven
Do you worship Jesus or do you worship the Father? Do you pray to Jesus or do you pray to the Father?
Luk 11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.
When Jesus lived on earth, everything He did was for our benefit.
Everything Jesus did on this earth was to obey the Father and please Him and Him only, that the Father might have son's in His house.
Jesus was God's Word. God's Word became flesh.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Jesus was God and was the Word Himself.
"Everything Jesus did was a way for God to speak to us. Through Jesus, God showed and demonstrated everything we are supposed to be."
With Christ in the believer, Jesus Himself showed who we really are. Christ in you the Hope of Glory.
We are to follow Jesus. (We are to let Jesus be our life and we are His followers by His works in us, not by my works to follow him.)
The Spirit of God dwells inside of you, (Amen:)
just as it did Jesus. Does that make you God? (No, but a God but a son of God. Amen) No, it doesn't. It makes you a part of God. You are His child. However, Jesus was not just the child of God. Jesus is God. The Word was God. (The only Begotten Son)
Psalms 22:1 - (NLT)
For the choir director: A psalm of David, to be sung to the tune "Doe of the Dawn." My God, my God! Why have you forsaken me? Why do you remain so distant? Why do you ignore my cries for help?
And
Notice the parallel of David speaking in the Psalms. Jesus is not a seperate person from God. He is God. Jesus is not entirely seperate from humanity either. Jesus was a man. Jesus is a person. He is the expressed person of God. In this way, Jesus is the reconciliation between us and God.
Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
I think it's significant that upon the baptism of Jesus, God said, "This is my son." We become God's children when we are baptized in the Spirit.
1Cr 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, (The Body of Christ) whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
1 Corinthians 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
We have Christ baptized into us and we are baptized into Him, His death, Burial, resurrection and Assention for we are already seated in Heavenly Places in Christ Jesus
Eph 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places],
Eph 2:6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:
Eph 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly [places] might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
Jesus did not need to be baptized. He was already God's son, He was already Holy. He was baptized for our benefit. To show and demonstrate what we are supposed to go through. Jesus did all things first.
If you say Jesus is a seperate person, you are suggesting that Jesus needed the Father. Jesus is God, and so how is it He needs the Father?
Jesus can do nothing apart from the Father. If Jesus is a seperate person, then would not Jesus be able to do things apart from the Father?
Jesus is not seperate from the Father. Jesus is God's Word. Jesus is the Son of God, Jesus is Life in the Believer, Jesus our spirit, or the Spirit of Christ does not dwell in you. The Holy Spirit our soul mind teacher of this Christ that is in us, the revealer of Christ and His Father.
In Christ: Phillip
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Phillip
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|  2005/11/21 4:22 | Profile | philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK
| | Re: | | Quote:
Did Jesus say, "My father, my father, why have you forsaken me?" Or did Jesus say, "My God, my god, why have you forsaken me?"
This was the exact moment that 'he who was rich, for our sakes, became poor'. His riches was his fellowship with His Father which He forfeited that we might know for ourselves.
This 'cry of dereliction' is the moment of 'Christ becoming sin for us' and is a wonderful insight into the cost of our salvation. To present this verse as a proof that the Son has no discernable identity different to that of the Father is folly.
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Ron Bailey
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| | 2005/11/21 4:23 | Profile | Nasher
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Joined: 2003/7/28
Posts: 404
Watford, UK
| | Re: | | Quote:
[u]We cannot say God is God's Word[/u]. This says that God's Word is greater than God. This is impossible. His word cannot be greater than Him. [u]God's Word is God.[/u][i][underlining added][/i]
Blake, this doesn't make sense, you can't say God is not God's Word and then say God's Word is God!
I would recommend reading Hebrews chapter 1, for me it's one of the best chapters in the bible!
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Mark Nash
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| | 2005/11/21 8:22 | Profile | beenblake
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Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA
| | Re: | | Dear Nasher,
Quote:
Blake, this doesn't make sense, you can't say God is not God's Word and then say God's Word is God!
Did you happen to read the parable given to Robert a few posts back explaining the Word?
God's Word proceeds from His mouth. It goes out and does whatever He commands. It is not a seperate person from Him. It is His Word.
God's Word is God. It does all that God commands. It represents Him exactly. However, God is not God's Word. For example, your post is you. It represents you exactly as you have spoken. I can say, Nasher's post is Nasher. However, I cannot say Nasher is his post.
God did not proceed from God's Word. Rather, God's Word proceeded from God. Do you see the difference?
In love,
Blake
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Blake Kidney
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| | 2005/11/21 9:26 | Profile | beenblake
Member
Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA
| | Re: | | Quote:
Did Jesus say, "My father, my father, why have you forsaken me?" Or did Jesus say, "My God, my god, why have you forsaken me?"
My point was to show that this scripture does not prove that Jesus was a seperate person from the Father. Did the Father speak back to His son?
This scripture does mark the moment by which Jesus was seperated from the Father, when Christ became sin for us, as you said. If Jesus is God's Word as John says, then for three days until Jesus was resurrected, God was without His Word.
Even if you believe in the trinity, this is a great mystery. How could Jesus who was Holy become sin? How could Jesus who was God die? How could God be seperated from His Word?
In love,
Blake
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Blake Kidney
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| | 2005/11/21 9:43 | Profile | RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri
| | Re: | | Hi Blake,
Quote:
Even if you believe in the trinity, this is a great mystery. How could Jesus who was Holy become sin? How could Jesus who was God die? How could God be seperated from His Word
These are questions that are impossible to answer apart from a Trinitarian view of God. This is why we have tried desperately to show the Biblical perspective because so much hinges on it.
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Robert Wurtz II
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| | 2005/11/21 9:54 | Profile | beenblake
Member
Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA
| | Re: | | Dear Christinyou,
Quote:
Jesus is not seperate from the Father. Jesus is God's Word.
Yes! Yes! Yes! Jesus is not seperate from the Father. Jesus is not a seperate person from the Father. Jesus is God's Word. He is not seperate.
Jesus is the only begotten son of God. Adam and the angels were called sons of God. Israel was called the firstborn son of God. Why is Jesus called the only begotten son of God?
Jesus is the only one who was begotten of God. Everything else was created. Jesus is the only one who is God. Jesus is God's Word. The Word was God. Don't you see? The Word is not seperate. The Word is not a seperate person.
You have a body made up of trillions of cells. Which cell is you? Which is not?
Some of those cells make up an arm. If you were to detach your arm and send it out, would your arm be a seperate person from you?
Jesus is not a seperate person. Jesus is God's Word. Jesus is God. Jesus and the Father are one.
In love,
Blake
_________________
Blake Kidney
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| | 2005/11/21 10:22 | Profile | beenblake
Member
Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA
| | Re: | | Dear Robert,
Quote:
These are questions that are impossible to answer apart from a Trinitarian view of God.
The Trinity is one attempt to explain this mystery, as was Modalism and all the other rejected heresies. Paul said in 1 Tim 3:16 that this was the great mystery of our faith. Shouldn't it remain a mystery?
I have gone around and asked several of my friends about the Trinity and what they thought of it. They all said they believed it. I then dug deeper to try and understand what they thought it was. Most people I met actually believed the Trinity was modalism. Most people picture one God with three personalities.
The trinity is a widely accepted doctrine, but other than the established orthodoxed trinity, it is also a misunderstood doctrine. Many people don't even know what they believe. When I explained to them Orthodox Trinity, and what it means, they did not agree with it. Everyone seems to have a different perspective of what the Trinity is or what it means.
We know a trinity does exist within God. We know that there is God, God's Word, and God's Spirit. However, what exactly is the relationship of the three?
If we say they are three individuals, then we imagine three individual people facing each other.
If we say they are three personalities, then we imagine one God with three faces.
To me, both of these seem wrong. When I picture God, I picture one person with two hands. One hand is God's Word. The other Hand is God's Spirit. God has used His hands to create heaven and earth. He brought them forth and controlled thier every action. They have worked in unison, inseperable from God and inseperable from each other. They share in everything and all that God is.
Even this metaphor fails, however, because it seperates God into regions. We can look at a person and say, "That region is his hand, that region is his arm, that region is his face." God, however, is beyond space and time. He doesn't have regions. If we try to visualize the trinity or define it in anyway, we have already done it great harm. So, even my image is wrong.
I believe God is one, and we should always look upon Him as one, not just one God, but the one God. God has placed so much emphasis on this. His greatest command begins, "The LORD our God is one LORD" (Deut 6:4)
If we believe God is the one God, and we believe Jesus is God, then we believe Jesus is the one God.
I don't look at my best friend as though He were just a clump of cells, or just a bunch of parts held together by flesh. I look at Him as one person, of whom I love, and of whom is my best friend. Jesus is my best friend. He is my Lord and God. He is my Father.
Calling Jesus my Father shows the intimacy I have with Jesus. He is family. Calling Jesus my Father shows His authority over me. If I were to call Jesus my brother, then He would be my equal. Jesus is not my equal. He is my God. Calling Jesus my Father shows that I am owned by Him. I belong to Jesus. I am His. Jesus is my Spiritual Father for I have been born again into His Spirit. The Spirit of Christ lives in me, and it is by His Spirit that I am able to say that I am His.
The trinity says that Jesus is not the Father and the Father is not Jesus. I agree that the Father is not Jesus. (God is not God's Word) However, Jesus is the Father. (God's Word is God). More specifically, Jesus is my Father.
Quote:
This is why we have tried desperately to show the Biblical perspective because so much hinges on it.
In our day and age, so much does hinge on the bible. I agree.
I have also tried desperately to show the biblical perspective.
However, the biblical perspective is the perspective of whoever is reading the bible. So much depends on Christ. We need Christ to lead us into truth, and must trust in Christ for all things.
It all hinges on faith. We are not saved by the bible, or even faith in the bible. We are saved by faith in Christ. We believe the bible. We believe in Christ. There is a difference here between those two statements. We believe what the bible says for it is the testimony of Christ as provided by the Spirit through men. We believe in Jesus. We believe not just in what He says, we believe in Him. We believe Jesus is the Christ.
In love,
Blake
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Blake Kidney
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| | 2005/11/21 11:38 | Profile | Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.
| | Re: | | I am three parts, Body, Soul, and Spirit, yet I am one. God is three parts, yet one. In my part of spirit, Christ is become my life by His Spirit being birthed in me by the Father, just like Mary. In my Soul, the Holy Spirit given unto me at the request of Jesus of Nazareth, the man to send the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, given by the Father. My Body will be birthed again on resurrection morning, when corruption will put on incorruption. We are already born again of Spirit and Water, which is Jesus Christ Himself the Spirit of Christ in us and the washing of water with the Word which is also Christ Himself. The washing is the Work of the Holy Spirit in our soul mind to teach each child of God who, what, where and why this Spirit of Christ is born again in the believer. He the Holy Spirit will lead you into all truth about this subject, Christ in you the Hope of Glory. John 15:8-9 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
John 15:16-17 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. These things I command you, that ye love one another.
John 15:26-27 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.
Not His beginning in Bethlehem but His beginning before the foundation of the World. Ephesians 1:4-5 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Three part man, but one. Three part God, but One.
God must be three parts of His Plan from the beginning or the Plan could not be accomplished. God in heaven and God on the Cross at the same time, I think not, God the Father in heaven and God the Son in Spirit One with Him, but on the Cross separate and forsaken for our sake, that we might see how what sin has done to us and how costly it is, and He is the only One who can work in us to bring about His Perfect Plan, Christ as our Life. Who's Spirit did He give up? Who's Body died on the Cross? Who Had the Power to give it or take it up again, but still one God.
The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are One God and He created us Body, Soul and Spirit, how else could He relate to us except In Himself, One God, showing us exactly what He has done by Using The Trinity that we might understand who He is and How He relates to us, His own creation.
Hbr 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
This in itself is the Trinity at work in us.
In Christ: Phillip
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Phillip
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| | 2005/11/21 13:57 | Profile | beenblake
Member
Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA
| | Re: | | Dear Philip,
Quote:
I am three parts, Body, Soul, and Spirit, yet I am one.
Are you one person or three persons? Which one of these three is you: your body, your Soul, or your Spirit?
Quote:
God in heaven and God on the Cross at the same time
It must be, or else you are speaking of more than one God. Is God one or is He three? You cannot say God is one and three. How does that make sense? There is either one God, or three Gods. There is either one person or three persons. Do you know anyone who is three persons in one person?
1 Timothy 3:16 (KJ)
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
"God in Heaven and God on the cross at the same time"
This is the great mystery of our faith. Who can explain it? With human wisdom, this is impossible. We cannot fathom such a thing.
This has been intentionally made a mystery to us so that we may believe it by faith. Who could ever accept that Jesus is God? It confounds all reason and logic. It is a mystery. How could God come down from Heaven and live on earth as a man? How could God die and then be resurrected?
1 Corinthians 1:20 (NLT)
20 So where does this leave the philosophers, the scholars, and the world's brilliant debaters? God has made them all look foolish and has shown their wisdom to be useless nonsense. 21 Since God in his wisdom saw to it that the world would never find him through human wisdom, he has used our foolish preaching to save all who believe. 22 God's way seems foolish to the Jews because they want a sign from heaven to prove it is true. And it is foolish to the Greeks because they believe only what agrees with their own wisdom. 23 So when we preach that Christ was crucified, the Jews are offended, and the Gentiles say it's all nonsense.
Quote:
God must be three parts of His Plan from the beginning could not be accomplished. God in heaven and God on the Cross at the same time, I think not, God the Father in heaven and God the Son in Spirit One with Him, but on the Cross separate and forsaken for our sake. Who's Spirit did He give up.
That my friend is the power of God.
Matthew 19:26 (NLT)
Jesus looked at them intently and said, "Humanly speaking, it is impossible. But with God everything is possible."
The Lord our God is one Lord!
Jesus is Lord!
In love,
Blake
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Blake Kidney
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| | 2005/11/21 15:40 | Profile |
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