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Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374


Bro. Robert you wrote;
"but it is quite another to assert that Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are no longer persons in the Godhead; ie. they are not deity."

Bro. Robert did you read my posts? ... i'm gonna say this as humbly as i can but if you did i think you're reading into it what you want to hear, and i'd really appreciate it if you'd go back and REALLY hear what i've posted, and not put "your words" in my mouth ... :-o


i REST MY CASE ... :-D

 2005/11/1 17:01Profile

Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


There's some good points here. I wanted to take a close look at one thing and make a comment though.

To me the servanthood of Christ was God's way of showing He was and is willing to submit to the rules He created.

In the western mind set I think its hard for us to understand that what God gave us as Laws, principles, precepts, is in reality what His very nature is like, it is what God is and how He operates in His character. The laws of God reflect His very nature. We quote such scripture as "out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh". The Eastern mind understands whats spoken to be what is in the heart, Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Why would John call Jesus the Logos of God ? Jesus was the very expression of the very heart of God.
That's why the written Word of God is so important. Because there is a sense in which we can rest in the doing of it in our daily lives, knowing that in so doing we are in practice walking in the spirit, as long as we neglect not our fellowship with the life of God through the Holy Spirit.


 2005/11/1 17:06Profile

Joined: 2005/7/5
Posts: 382
The Netherlands

 Re: Taste and see the Lord is good!

Hey Rahman,

I do have some ideas about how this might still function (or not), but then again I haven't really gave this thing a good thought yet or some prayer about it to God. But I don't find it that important for me to get to the bottem of this. (if that is even possible)
So I'm not going to respond on the (good) thoughts you brought up against it, besides it isn't my thought anyhow. :-P

But somehow i just can't see Christ having selective amnesia about "the day and the hour" just because He was down here on earth ... For me "omniscience" means that He would have had to know the day and the hour, just like the Father, before He ever got here ...

Christ in His ministry didn't seem to have any trouble remembering His heavenly home with it's many mansions, His Father, the Holy Ghost, the angels in heaven, why He'd come here and whose will He'd come to do, and that of remembering His seeing satan fall from heaven like lightening ... Seems to me that if He remembered all that, He'd certainly have remembered the day and the hour also, but He said only His Father knew, and that's exactly what i think He meant ...

OK i'm done for real now ... it doesn't make sense for me to keep re-hashing an impasse ...

A while back I've gone through scripture to check if it was true that Jesus might not be God as someone attacked me on that.
Know I verified with scripture that Jesus is God, like the Father and the Holy Spirit. There is enough scriptural evidence to point this out. (and I see that this is not really an issue here)

We do seek Truth. God has it there to be revealed to you in His word if you need to know.
Still we can't possibly understand all about God now and not everything is written down in His word. As its not the goal of the Bible to explain all things.

You know, in case you can't find a clear 'theological' answer or some sort of 'all explaining' answer, it's better to accept that you don't know somethings then to fill up the blanks by yourself and treat that as truth.

I'm not saying that you do, but I can very imagine that someone starts to wander off the truth because he just 'needs' an answer. Wanting to know everything can be arrogance in a way.

Even if we don't fully understand everything about "God's being" or fully understand His ways we can take His Word as Truth because the Bible doesn't conflict itself.

As i've said to brother Ron if you think me "blind" in this area, please hold me up in prayer to having my spiritual eyes opened ...

Blessings in Christ Jesus ...

I don't know if you are 'blind' or not in this area. Its an area where I don't have all the answers myself and probably not fully ever have. It's not important what I think.

Don't get me wrong, its good to get to know more about God. Especially in days that people stray of the Truth and accept nonesense and lies about Him.
But.. it's better to get to Him better (which won't happen if someone is living in lies) then only getting to know about Him.

[b]Psa 34:8[/b]
[i]"O taste and see that the LORD is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him."[/i]

Oh well, what I am trying to say is to be careful while you seek the truth, stay in Him. (Don't you dare to stray off!!)
I will pray for you anyhow and God bless! :-)

Jonathan Veldhuis

 2005/11/1 18:01Profile

Joined: 2004/10/12
Posts: 173

 Re: Trinity Debate: Need Help

Prove all things; hold fast that which is good(1Thess 5:21).

I have been following this thread with great interest. In all honesty I find it difficult to discuss and define God. That is what the Trinity debate is and has been: an attempt by man to define God. I don’t believe that we are equipped to do this with our finite minds. However when we decide to take this step, we have to consider ALL Scriptures, not just those that confirm the “majority” Trinitarian view. Before, anyone calls me a heretic: I believe in a Triune God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but I don’t believe that the definition used in most Churches is correct.

Rahman, I agree with most of what you say, except that I don’t believe that we can define God, be it the Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit, for the Bible tells us exactly what we need to know. This is one thing that Jesus DID NOT command us to do, yet we do. Some Christians explain that Jesus said that His Father was greater than He, because He had emptied Himself and asked the Father in John 17 to receive His glory as He had with Him before He came to the earth. It is true that Jesus emptied Himself and gave up His glory, but He still said: before Abraham was, I AM. By that statement He indicated that He was God and as such, emptied from His glory but still God, He said that the Father was greater than He. This is exactly what the Bible confirms in other places too, that Jesus – being God – was subordinate to the Father. This is the mystery of the Gospel, reconciliation to the Father through Jesus Christ the Son! This is where the Church receives Her power, from the Father through the Son, by means of the Holy Spirit.

Because the Bible tells us that we are to Prove All Things, I want to submit the following Scriptures:

1 Corinthians 15
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Verse 28 is quite clear: When ALL things are subdued unto the Son, the Son shall himself be subject onto the Father, SO that God, the Father, may be all in all.

Revelation 10:
7 but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, then the mystery of God is finished, as He preached to His servants the prophets.

The mystery of God finishes in the days of the seventh angel, as He preached to the prophets!

Revelation 11:
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned [NASB: have begun to reign].

Vs. 15 The Kingdom of the world has become the Kingdom of our Lord [the Father] AND of His Christ. Vs. 17 Lord God Almighty [the Father] have taken Your great power and have begun to reign! This is a confirmation of what Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 15 above.

John 10
17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

The clue is in the fact that Jesus states: this commandment I received of the Father. One equal doesn’t command another equal. One equal can delegate to make another equal, but for one to submit to another, the last is greater than the first. The Father is greater than the Son, even though they are both God. The strength and effectiveness of the Church is in the fact that through Christ the Father reconciled the world unto Himself not counting their sins against them. When we don’t recognize this as the Church we will not succeed in being co-workers with Christ in our struggle against the devil.

I have written in much more detail about this on my website. Just click on The Father’s Final Call under the list of sponsors on the left of the page.

Hans Prang

 2005/11/1 19:27Profile

Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


When we don’t recognize this as the Church we will not succeed in being co-workers with Christ in our struggle against the devil.

This is a heavy-duty statement, and I need to think about it and examine related scriptures before I dismiss this thought.

I notice that most of our songs and prayers are directed to Jesus, but not many towards the Father.

We always seem to encourage children to pray: "Dear Jesus... " Are we distorting their image of God? Should we train them to approach the Father? If so, why aren't we?

In some hymnals the one song, "Of the Father's Love begotten" has been changed to "Of Eternal Love Begotten"
So there seems to be a bent all around to forget about "Our Father which art in heaven..."

What actually is wrong with saying, "Our Jesus, which art in heaven.." How would that destroy our "struggle against the devil"

I wonder how well the concept of a mediator is understood - ie we cannot approach the Father without a mediator. How many really WANT to see the Father?

Then there is the whole religious segment of the church that makes the Holy Spirit their end pursuit. I can easily see the pitfalls. The Spirit ends up being merely one's own desires (just let the Spirit move you, just follow your heart, yikes!)

I can see that putting God into segments is not a good idea - everybody takes their favorite segment, and the full picture gets lost. So we end up with a God created in man's image.

Just some random thoughts that pop into my mind.


 2005/11/1 20:06Profile

 Re: Trinity Debate : Need Help

One equal doesn’t command another equal. One equal can delegate to make another equal, but for one to submit to another, the last is greater than the first.

Or, wasn't it O Chambers who has said 'submission is [i][b]only[/b][/i] possible between equals'?

In fact, that statement is open to debate because submission is what one does to A N Other, ideally, willingly. Only when one party [i]insists[/i] upon submission, could it be called - a command requiring obedience. But here (John 10) we are really looking at Christ's [u]willingness[/u] to obey, (because He loved us - John 15), more than His 'equality'.

I hope these comments don't muddy the water. I don't think I've said anything new.

 2005/11/1 20:09

Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK


But somehow i just can't see Christ having selective amnesia about "the day and the hour" just because He was down here on earth ... For me "omniscience" means that He would have had to know the day and the hour, just like the Father, before He ever got here ...

You are getting yourself deeper into the mire. God is not only omnscient, He is also omnipotent. That means He has all power, including power over His omniscience. (I would recommend that you re-read Tozer; The Knowledge of the Holy.) Was Christ powerless or did He choose not to exercise His power while on earth? Did He suffer 'amnesia' or did He choose 'not to know' as part of His full identification with the human race?

Many preachers will tell you that "God will forget your sin". It is not true because that would be 'amnesia'. The scripture declares that God will 'not remember' your sin; which is quite another matter. If I had full control of my mental faculties I would be albe to 'refuse to recall' to my memory specific incidents. Amnesia is a failure of something to function properly, To 'refuse to recall to memory' is a prerogative of God, otherwise none of us would ever stand before Him. “If thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand?” (Psa. 130:3, KJVS) Is that amnesia? of course not! It is an exercise of omnipotence.

In his earthly walk as a true human being who remained fully God, how was Christ to experience our life unless he determined to live every moment 'as a man'? This did not make Him 'not God' but enabled his identification with our race to be complete. He choose not to use His divine powers. A wonderful example of this is the wilderness temptation. Satan's attempt was to get him to behave 'as God' and so disqualify him from being our 'high priest'. “And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be [u]the Son of God[/u], command that these stones be made bread. But he answered and said, It is written, [u]Man[/u] shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.” (Matt. 4:3-4, KJVS)The test here is will be use His divine prerogatives and act as 'Son of God' or will He deny His rights and persist in His human mission? The record makes his choice plain. Luke's gospel tells us that after the wilderness temptation 'the devil... departed from him for a season'. There must have been many instances when the possibility of 'behaving as God' was put before Christ. Your Matthew reference... “But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.” (Matt. 24:36, KJVS) simply another exercise of the same choice. He chose 'not to know'; this is part of his settled choice of "refusig to recall" NOT amnesia.

Ron Bailey

 2005/11/2 4:56Profile

Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK


Before, anyone calls me a heretic: I believe in a Triune God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but I don’t believe that the definition used in most Churches is correct.

Now what does this mean? This is a humpty-dumpty-ism. 'when I use a word it means just what I want it to mean'. You cannot redefine the word 'Trinity' to suit your own view of 'Trinity'. Trinity is not a bible word it is a theological word with a specific definition. If you disagree with the definition you are not a believer in The Trinity. You may have your own views and but cannot redefine the word 'Trinity' to claim that you are 'Trinitarian'.

I can't help recall the old Star Trek formual; 'it's life Jim, but not as we know it'. 'Life' is not easy to define, but the word Trinity has a specific theological definition. You can't say 'I'm Trinitarian, Jim, but not as Trinitarians know it'. If the Father, Son and Spirit are 'different kinds of gods' you are no longer monotheist.

Ron Bailey

 2005/11/2 5:03Profile

Joined: 2003/10/9
Posts: 172
Ex-England colony of Australia


Gen 1:26 Then God said, "Let us make mankind in our image, after our likeness,........
Gen 1:27 God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them,.....
Gen 3:22 And the Lord God said, "Now that the man has become like one of us,......


Jouko Hakola

 2005/11/2 6:09Profile

Joined: 2005/7/5
Posts: 382
The Netherlands


A while back I had a discussion about Jesus being God at workstudy with a workstudy collegue and I also showed this in Genesis.
Well it basically was wrongly translated or wrongly written down there according to him. Muslims also don't believe that Jesus is God and that there is only one God. :-(

Jonathan Veldhuis

 2005/11/2 8:18Profile

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