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Rahman
Member



Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374


 Re: Trinity Debate: Need Help




Bro Ron you wrote;
"Very simple, it was as Jesus the Christ, that He made this submission. He was 'equal' with the Father in every sense in His pre-incarnation, but the incarnation changed his relationship in this sense."

Yes, this is pretty much the same thing i heard the preacher say to the older brother about his belief of Christ not being "equal in every sense" to the Father ... But such a reasoning both then and now makes me wonder, because i'd been taught by my own pastor that Christ was God in flesh on Earth, did His being wrapped in flesh make Him less God? ... i came to the conclusion that such reasoning, as you've said you believe my graded view of the Trinity to be, is defective ... Christ on earth, to me, was acting no different toward His Father than He did in Heaven ... To me, in creation, the Father willed it, the Word spoke the will, and Holy Spirit physically brought it to past ... Christ it always seems to me is doing the will of His Father, by speaking forth that will ... So when He came here He let it be known that He came not to do His own will, but the will of the One that "sent" Him ...

i bless God for this thread for this has certainly made me pray, seek and more closely define just what i believe about the Trinity ... i suppose it's Christ constant use of the word "sent" that has convinced me that while i believe all three members of the Godhead to be equally co-eternal, omnipotent, omnipresent, and most definitley of the same substance, i don't concider the other two members of the Godhead to be equally omniscient with the Father ... i find Jesus words of Matt. 24:36 to be pretty self evident - "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only", and i take them literally to mean that only the Father still, right now knows something that both He and the Holy Spirit are still to this very second waiting to hear ...

So yes like Origen i do believe Christ to be subordinate to the Father in whatever the sense He meant when He said His Father was "greater" than He ... And so (for me) when Phil. 2 says
“who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God", i think Christ was refering to those areas in which He knew Himself to be on the same par as His Father and not the area, which i think has to do with being the all knowing will of the Trinity ... That's why
Rev.1: 1 sticks out so much for me - The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John." ... It has always fascinated me that the final letter(s) to His Bride, we the Church whom Christ said His Father gave to Him, was not written to us by Christ alone, seperate or apart from the Father, but the Father gave Him the Revelation, to give to us ... For me Christ is God the Mediator, what we call down here on earth the "middle-man" ...


So yes i do believe Christ and Holy Spirit in their oneness with the Father to be "omnipotent":
1: often capitalized : ALMIGHTY 1
2: having virtually unlimited authority or influence

Matt.28:
[18] And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

note: Let me say here that i believe had it not been for the fall of man, and God's necessary plan of redemption, there would never have even been a need for the Word to have had to be formally given "all power" in what seems like a new bestowal of the Father to His Son what He already enjoyed in their Oneness ... i could be wrong, but i think that had it not become necessary by Adam's fall for God to intimately reveal His triuness, both creatures of heaven and earth would still only see Him as One in His light, and we wouldn't even be discussing such issues ...


And yes i do believe Christ and Holy Spirit in their oneness with the Father to be "omnipresent":
1: present in all places at all times

John.1
[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
[2] The same was in the beginning with God.
[3] All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.


But no i do not believe Christ and Holy Spirit in their oneness with the Father to be "omniscient":
2: possessed of universal or complete knowledge

Matt.24 -
"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only"

Like Christ statement, i think there are some things that only the Father knows, even in their Oneness, until such time as He reveals it as His "will", and then the other two members of the Godhead know, and react ...

So contrary to Origen i don't believe in the independence of the Logos, i think just as Christ said He and His Father are One, and that if we see Him we see the Father also ... i both believe, and concieve the analogy of Father and Son ... And i most certainly don't agree with Origen that Christ is of a different substance than the Father ... i believe both Christ, and Holy Spirit to be God ... If Origen truly believed that Christ was but merely an image comparison or creation to God the Father, and not eternal God Himself as the Logos, then i too think this heretical and would not agree with it ...

Now lastly i did find this belief attributed to Origen interesting ...

"The Logos is the rational creative principle that permeates the universe. Since God eternally manifests himself, the Logos is likewise eternal. He forms a bridge between the created and uncreated, and only through him, as the visible representative of divine wisdom, can the inconceivable and incorporeal God be known. Creation came into existence only through the Logos, and God's nearest approach to the world is the command to create. While the Logos is substantially a unity, he comprehends a multiplicity of concepts, so that Origen terms him, in Platonic fashion, "essence of essences" and "idea of ideas."

i gotta chew on this one some more ... i'm so unfamiliar with so much of the scholarly terminolgy like "Platonic fashion" ...

i did do a lot of asking of saints this weekend their thoughts on Christ and Holy Spirit being equal to the Father ... Got a lot of puzzled looks ... Silence on the phone ... Some said they really never thought to much about it ... Some only see Jesus and Father and Holy Spirit are secondary ... But when i began to ask did they think Jesus equal to His Father, i was surprised to find out how many of them refered to the same scripture as myself concerning Christ saying that the Father was greater ... i guess i'm not as alone in my circle as i thought ...

Bro Ron i've not posted this as fodder for debate, or in attempts of persuasion, to the contrary - i've posted this out of the thought process this thread, and your comments on Origen, has led me on, and the conclusions i've come to in result ...

i still believe as i believed at the onset, but because of this topic my explanation of what and why i believe as i do has certainly been refined ...

Anyone interested in a short history of ...

Origen
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origen

Blessings all!

 2005/10/31 17:02Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
while i believe all three members of the Godhead to be equally co-eternal, omnipotent, omnipresent, and most definitley of the same substance, i don't concider the other two members of the Godhead to be equally omniscient with the Father ... i find Jesus words of Matt. 24:36 to be pretty self evident - "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only", and i take them literally to mean that only the Father still, right now knows something that both He and the Holy Spirit are still to this very second waiting to hear ...

So now you see where it has lead you... into a conclusion that Christ never was truly equal with God, and according to this statment, you now include the Holy Spirit in this conclusion. You are not the first person to believe these things but the great classical preachers whose traditional Trinitarian orthodoxy is most represented on this site would have strongly disagreed with you.

Your statement, as it stands, is a denial of simple logic. You cannot have 'grades' of omniscience! 'omni' is 'all'. Your statement is saying that the Father has [u]more[/u] 'all knowledge' than the Son and the Spirit who have less 'all knowledge' than the Father. You either have 'ominscience' or you don't. There can be no shades in this. If you deny Christ full 'omniscience' you deny Him deity. This is Trinitarian chaos.


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Ron Bailey

 2005/10/31 17:53Profile
crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Perhaps with some liberty...

But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. I and my Father are one. (Mat 24:36 and Joh 10:30)


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Mike Balog

 2005/11/1 0:04Profile
Rahman
Member



Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374


 Re: Trinity Debate: Need Help


Bro Ron you wrote;
"You cannot have 'grades' of omniscience! 'omni' is 'all'. Your statement is saying that the Father has more 'all knowledge' than the Son and the Spirit who have less 'all knowledge' than the Father. You either have 'ominscience' or you don't."

Hmmmm ... i thought i made it pretty plain that from Christ statement of Matt.24 -
"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only" ... i don't believe Christ and Holy Spirit to be "omniscient" ... Seems to me that the Word finds out the will of the Father when the Father wills it like, "Let Us make man in our image" ... To me this seems like the Father's idea ... In fact it all seems like the Fathers idea to me ... i believe the Father to be preiminent in the Godhead because it seems to me Christ statements point to that ...

You finished;
"If you deny Christ full 'omniscience' you deny Him deity. This is Trinitarian chaos."

Call me crazy, but in my mind in the three members of the Godhead if collectively they are three in one, and one in three i have no problem wrapping my tiny brain around the Father being the preimenent and superior One of the Godhead, Christ being the middle One - Logos/Word, and Holy Spirit being the third One - Workman of the Godhead ... i have no problem recognizing and believing in Christ' or Holy Spirit's diety just because i believe Christ points out that the Father is the greater One, and apparently (to me) the all knowing One ... To me the mere fact that Christ and Holy Spirit are co-eternal and One with the Father automatically makes them diety, but as i said to my view the Father seems to always call the shots, while the other two members re-act ...

i'll not beat this issue anymore as i've said about all i can say ... But again i say thank you for being one of our Lord's instruments for making me delve into this further, and i pray again that if i'm in error from this He will eventually make my error plain so i can change my way of thinking ... But until that time i'll be believing this issue as i now do ...

Keep praying for me brother Ron, as i do you! ... :-D

 2005/11/1 9:01Profile
Rahman
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Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374


 Re: Trinity Debate: Need Help


Bro Mike you wrote;
"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. I and my Father are one. (Mat 24:36 and Joh 10:30)

If our Lord made the statement that "the day and hour only the Father knows", but expects me to put together that He was also saying (on the sly) that He knows also because He also made the statement that "I and the Father are one", then He's presented me with a riddle ... God knows i ain't good at riddles, and personally in this instance i don't think He's presented me with one ... So until He makes it plainer to this dim-wit :-P i'm gonna take Him literally at His Word ... Pray for me bro!

 2005/11/1 9:14Profile
Warrior4Jah
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Joined: 2005/7/5
Posts: 382
The Netherlands

 Re:

As I've heard on camp (in conversation) is that Jesus didn't know this while on earth. Now He is on the throne next to the Father He does know.

But I can't back this up, just sharing something I've heard. Perhaps this makes sense?


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Jonathan Veldhuis

 2005/11/1 14:57Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Hmmmm ... i thought i made it pretty plain that from Christ statement of Matt.24 -
"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only" ... i don't believe Christ and Holy Spirit to be "omniscient" ... Seems to me that the Word finds out the will of the Father when the Father wills it like, "Let Us make man in our image" ... To me this seems like the Father's idea ... In fact it all seems like the Fathers idea to me ... i believe the Father to be preiminent in the Godhead because it seems to me Christ statements point to that ...

Orthodox Christians have believed that ominscience is an essential attribute of deity. If Christ is not omnisceint He is not God, neither is the Spirit.


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Ron Bailey

 2005/11/1 15:15Profile
Rahman
Member



Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374


 Re: Trinity Debate: Need Help


Bro Ron you wrote;
"Orthodox Christians have believed that ominscience is an essential attribute of deity. If Christ is not omnisceint He is not God, neither is the Spirit."

Well i guess that makes me an "un-orthodox Christian" (which i'm sure is no surprise to you and others on SI ...:-D ), and in the mind of some i'm a heretic (being broad here because i'm not trying to stir the pot anymore than i already have) ...

Thank God i'm now not under the early Roman Catholic church and it's popery, or i'd be excommunicated by now for sure, if not burned at the stake ... Thank God for Martin Luther, at least under Protestantism those who may find my view defective won't try to run me outta town on a rail, but will instead pray for my enlightenment ...

Blessings in Christ Jesus ...

 2005/11/1 16:18Profile
Rahman
Member



Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374


 Re: Trinity Debate: Need Help



Thanks Warrior4Jah ... you wrote;
"As I've heard on camp (in conversation) is that Jesus didn't know this while on earth. Now He is on the throne next to the Father He does know."

But somehow i just can't see Christ having selective amnesia about "the day and the hour" just because He was down here on earth ... For me "omniscience" means that He would have had to know the day and the hour, just like the Father, before He ever got here ...

Christ in His ministry didn't seem to have any trouble remembering His heavenly home with it's many mansions, His Father, the Holy Ghost, the angels in heaven, why He'd come here and whose will He'd come to do, and that of remembering His seeing satan fall from heaven like lightening ... Seems to me that if He remembered all that, He'd certainly have remembered the day and the hour also, but He said only His Father knew, and that's exactly what i think He meant ...

[b]OK i'm done for real now ... it doesn't make sense for me to keep re-hashing an impasse[/b] ... As i've said to brother Ron if you think me "blind" in this area, please hold me up in prayer to having my spiritual eyes opened ...

Blessings in Christ Jesus ... :-D

 2005/11/1 16:22Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi Rahman,

I hope to encourage you not to give up too quickly, but to study this topic out in greater detail. It is of the utmost importance that we have a right view of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. The doctrine of the Deity of Christ and the Holy Spirit are both essential doctrines of the Christian faith.

Almost all major cults have at their root a false view of Jesus Christ. I think it is one thing to say we don't fully comprehend these things, but it is quite another to assert that Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are no longer persons in the Godhead; ie. they are not deity. The overwhelming testimony of scripture is to the contrary. I have some good notes I would share with you if you are interested. Send me a pm and I'll get it to you somehow. ;-)


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Robert Wurtz II

 2005/11/1 16:30Profile





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