SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Trinity Debate: Need Help

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 Next Page )
PosterThread
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Trinity Debate: Need Help

Hey all,

I have been engaged in a debate over the trinity of which I believe to be true. These scriptures were raised as defense against it:

1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

How do I explain this and still maintain the credability of the bible?

Thanks,
Blake


_________________
Blake Kidney

 2005/10/27 22:17Profile
groh_frog
Member



Joined: 2005/1/5
Posts: 432


 Re: Trinity Debate: Need Help

Now, I'm not a pro but I would reinforce where Jesus is said to be God. Here's the ones I use most commonly:

John 1:1, put together with John 1:14.

John 8:58, where Jesus says "before Abraham was born, I am", which is a referance to Ex 3:14

My personal favorite- works well with Jehova's Witnesses, also. These three go together.

Revelation 1:8, "I am the Alpha and Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."
So the Lord God is the Alpha and Omega, right?

Revelation 22:13, "I am the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End."
So the Lord God is the Alpha and Omega, the
First and the Last, right?

Revelation 2:8, "These are the words of him who is the First and The Last, who died and came to life again."
So the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last is the Lord God, right? Well, when did God die and come to life? Jesus Christ!

Anyway, tell us how it goes. I'd like to know more about what is said- on both sides.

Grace and Peace...

 2005/10/28 6:21Profile
Rahman
Member



Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374


 Re: Trinity Debate: Need Help



Hi beenblake.

i'm not sure what their argument is in reference to the Trinity here ... Are they saying that God can't be Triune because the Father is above the Son, and the Son above the Holy Spirit (although He's not even mentioned here)? ...

If that's the case then there is no argument against God's Triuness in their scriptural examples listed, but proof that there's hierarchy within the Trinity, namely Father (1), Son (2) and Holy Spirit (3) ... i heard a preacher say once that the Bible itself is a trinity, as we His image creation are also ... He said in scripture there's the OT (the dispensation of the Father), the Gospels (the dispensation of the Son), and the NT (from the Acts, the dispensation of the Holy Spirit) ... And that when it comes to us we're spirit, soul and flesh ...

When i'm attempting to get someone to understand that God is one in three, and three in one first off i pray God the Holy Spirit's (3) blessing, direction and wisdom in the explaining because He knows the deep things of God (1 & 2) ...

1Cor.2:10 - But God (1 & 2) hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit (3): for the Spirit (3) searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God (1 & 2).

That's why Christ (2) prayed the Father (1) to send the Holy Spirit (3) to us after His (2) departure ...

John.14:[16] And I (2) will pray the Father(1), and He (1) shall give you another Comforter (3), that He (3) may abide with you for ever; [26] But the Comforter (3), which is the Holy Ghost (3), whom the Father (1) will send in my name (2), He (3) shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I (2) have said unto you.

John.15:[26] But when the Comforter (3) is come, whom I (2) will send unto you from the Father (1), even the Spirit (3) of truth, which proceedeth from the Father (1), He (3) shall testify of me (2):

How i like to explain the Trinity is that the Father (1) is the Source (the very Will of the Godhead), that
Jesus Christ (2) is the Course (the Word of the Fathers Will), and Holy Spirit (3) the Force (He that does only the Will of the Father (1) via the Word of the Son (2) ...

John.16:[13] Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth (3), is come, He (3) will guide you into all truth: for He (3) shall not speak of Himself (3); but whatsoever He (3) shall hear (from 1 by 2), that shall He speak: and He (3) will shew you things to come.

So scripture tells us that even though God the Son (2) calls God the Father (1) both His Father and His God, designating from His (2) on lips that the Father (1) is above Him (2), and that He (2) came to do the Will of the Father (1) He (2) says this in ...

John.6:[38] For I (2) came down from heaven, not to do mine (2) own will, but the will of Him (1) that sent me.

John.10:[27] My sheep hear My (2) voice, and I (2) know them, and they follow me: [28] And I (2) give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of My (2) hand.
[29] My Father (1), which gave them Me (2), is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of My Father's (1) hand. [30] I and my Father are one.

Ouch! ... (2) is saying that (1) is greater than He (2), Holy Spirit (3) and anyone/thing else ... (2) puts it right down front that the Father is #1, but then states that (2) + (1) = (1) ... (2) states of (3) in John.15:[26] that (3) "proceedeth from" the Father (1) ...

i've always found it fascinating that God in the OT appears as one, but Elohim is plural, like cherub (singular) to cherub-im (more than one) ... From the vantage point of where we now sit in having the Gospels and the NT in explanation, it almost seems (to me) like even back then God was giving a hint to His triuness, that the Eternal One, the I Am that I Am, was actually more than One ...

What a mighty, wondrous and loving God we serve who would reveal such an eternal mystery as His own personal intimate makeup to the point that we now know and commune with all three members of the Godhead (3) ... That God the Father (1) would reveal and send God the Son (2) for the benefit of our salvation, and then send God the Holy Spirit (3) to empower us to be earthly servants, representatives, ambassodors, and proclaimers of (2), who always point to (1) ... Man, what a program huh? ...

Lastly, this is my all time favorite scripture when it comes to explaning the Trinity ...

Mark.1:[9] And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus (2) came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.[10] And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit (3) like a dove descending upon Him (2): [11] And there came a voice (1) from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son (2), in whom I (1) am well pleased.

All three members of the Godhead in operation at once!

Hope this helps ... And for anyone who doesn't believe in the Trinity i've not posted this to argue back and forth, this is just how i believe in and see God's Triuness ...

Blessings in Christ Jesus! ... :-D

 2005/10/28 11:02Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

We are getting into deep water here but technically...

Quote:
f that's the case then there is no argument against God's Triuness in their scriptural examples listed, but proof that there's hierarchy within the Trinity, namely Father (1), Son (2) and Holy Spirit (3) ...

...is heresy. hierarchy |?h???r??ki| noun ( pl. -chies) a system or organization in which people or groups are ranked one above the other according to status or authority. • ( the hierarchy) the upper echelons of a hierarchical system; those in authority : the magazine was read quite widely even by some of the hierarchy. • an arrangement or classification of things according to relative importance or inclusiveness : a taxonomic hierarchy of phyla, classes, orders, families, genera, and species. • ( the hierarchy) the clergy of the Catholic or Episcopal Church; the religious authorities. • Theology the traditional system of orders of angels and other heavenly beings. Hierarchy was 'chain of command' rule. You can create a business org chart of an hierarchy. Trinity is something quite different. It is tri-unity with Father, Son and Spirit being 'co-equal, co-substantial, co-eternal'. 'co-' cannot be hierarchical. It is impossible to create an org chart of the Trinity.

The Athanasian creed was a reaction against the heresies of its day but if you strip out the doctrinaire elements you still have a good statement, though not one you are likely to use in your evangelism. ;-) The Athanasian Creed has the sentence:He is equal to the Father in His divinity, but inferior to the Father in His humanity. That is a very careful steer around the 'heresy' of hierarchy.

The Three Classic Creeds of Christendom are
[url=http://www.creeds.net/ancient/apostles.htm]The Apostles' Creed[/url]
[url=http://www.creeds.net/ancient/nicene.htm]The Nicene Creed[/url]
[url=http://www.creeds.net/ancient/Quicumque.html]The Athanasian Creed[/url]


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/10/28 13:14Profile
Rahman
Member



Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374


 Re: Trinity Debate: Need Help




Thanks bro. Ron ...

i will look into the creed links you provided ... But as it stands now i guess i've got a big H (for heretic) branded on my rear :-P ... Because i take literally what Christ said here ...

John.14:[28] - Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

i looked up "greater" in the Webster's but i remember you telling me a while back that i shouldn't look up biblical definitions in a secular dictionary, so perhaps you may have a source of definition that will clear up my thinking that greater means ... well "greater" ... predominant ... i've heard some scholars attempt to explain this scripture away by saying that Christ said this because He was down here on earth ... But Christ was in heaven in His full second person of the God head glory when He gave the Revelation to John, but Scripture says that God the Father gave it to God the Son first, to pass it on ...

All throughout Scripture i see the Father as the Will of the Trinity, Christ as the Word of the Will, and Holy Spirit as the mover and shaker of the Will via the Word ... Although i know all three are God, i also see the Word as greater than Holy Spirit in that the Word don't say nothing other than the Will of the Father, and Holy Spirit don't do nothing unless He hears it from heaven ...

Like this statement you made "Jesus is an earth-time name which the Word chose" over on the other thread ...

Creation of Jesus
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=7821&forum=35

If i'm in error i pray God to deliver me from it, but until such a time ...well here goes me showing off my big H again, but i don't believe that God the Word chose to call Himself His earthly name but God the Will (the Father did) ... Seeing the Trinity as a hierarchy may get me in trouble with those who don't, but even if i discarded that word i'd still have to say that i believe the Father to be "predominant" and somewhat "superior" in the Godhead for Him to always be the One calling the shots, being the Will, and the other two members acting and reacting accordingly ...

 2005/10/28 14:31Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
i also see the Word as greater than Holy Spirit

This 'graded' trinity is what Origen was excommunicated for. He believed that the Son was 'less' than the Father, and the Spirit was 'less' than the Son.

Quote:
i've heard some scholars attempt to explain this scripture away by saying that Christ said this because He was down here on earth

I presume you mean 'explaining the scripture away' from own particular convictions here. I am not trying to persuade you otherwise, I am just commenting that you are not the first in the Church's history of have held, what I believe, is a defective view of the Trinity.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/10/28 14:46Profile
Rahman
Member



Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374


 Re: Trinity Debate: Need Help



Bro. Ron you're a wealth of info ... Thank you! ... You wrote;

"This 'graded' trinity is what Origen was excommunicated for. He believed that the Son was 'less' than the Father, and the Spirit was 'less' than the Son."


Now i gotta go look up info on Origen ... Hmmmm ... and to find out which Church excommunicated Him ... God is good, as now i'll now what to be prepared for in this arena, for until He shows me otherwise then yes i believe in a heirarchal Trinity ...

You continued;
"I presume you mean 'explaining the scripture away' from your own particular convictions here."

No, at the time i heard this it was by another brother, an older brother in the congregation who believed
that the Father is "greater", to the dismay of the pastor who attempted to tell the brother that Christ said this because He was on earth at the time ... I remember thinking that i agreed with the older brother, but was much to afraid to say so then ... As you can see, i'm no loger afraid ... But as i said if i;m wrong i pray God will straighten me out about Himself ...

You ended;
"I am not trying to persuade you otherwise, I am just commenting that you are not the first in the Church's history of have held, what I believe, is a defective view of the Trinity."

No bro Ron i've not taken it as you trying to persuade me ... But i am appreciative that now i have some studying to do and am looking forward to seeing whether the research changes my view or further entrenches it ...

i love this SI Forum, for i can get no such depth of topics and discussion from anyone in the circle of saints i'm around ...

But i'm interested in your opinion of what Christ meant when He said the Father was greater ... Will you share that with me?

Blessings!

 2005/10/28 15:48Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
But i'm interested in your opinion of what Christ meant when He said the Father was greater ... Will you share that with me?

Very simple, it was as Jesus the Christ, that He made this submission. He was 'equal' with the Father in every sense in His pre-incarnation, but the incarnation changed his relationship in this sense. “who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men;” (Phil. 2:6-7, ASV) Submission must be voluntary or it is not submission. He did not do this out of 'duty' but out of love for our race. And the Father's love is measured in that He allowed the Word to submit to the will of God.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/10/28 18:58Profile
letsgetbusy
Member



Joined: 2004/9/28
Posts: 957
Cleveland, Georgia

 Re:

To me the servanthood of Christ was God's way of showing He was and is willing to submit to the rules He created. The Scriptures also say that, "For he hath made him to be sin for us." So Jesus should not have have been broken since He did nothing wrong. God just volunteered to do so. Likewise, God sent Himself, this person being the Son, to put on flesh that was cursed.
God seemingly shouldn't put on cursed flesh, but He did. Like a king putting on rags.

This shows His ability to be more that one person simultaneously, as well as His ability to create through all three persons of the trinity. Also it shows that Father recognized Jesus as flesh, as well as Jesus being God. God was well pleased with Jesus, but also turned His back on the Son, to forsake the sins of the flesh. The acts Jesus did defy all the laws of science and what should be. By our standards, He should have destroyed evil, but He rather paved a way for us. He will do the destroying during the second visit.

The submission of Jesus to the Father shows me what all flesh should do before God: submit. So no flesh will glory in God's presence, not even that flesh that Christ was in. Rather the God that was in the flesh of Christ took glory. The flesh took the punishment, while the Spirit of Christ ascended in a glorified body.

The Son was God with us, the Spirit is God in us. The Spirit inside of us is 100% God. The Holy Spirit cannot sin. That Spirit that prevails in us will receive glory in heaven at the judgment, not anything of the flesh. Jesus was 100% flesh, and 100% God. The Spirit is 100% God, but was given by a glorified Jesus who overcame the flesh. Flesh is corrupted by the work of Satan, but God has given a way through Christ to 'inject' His Spirit into corrupted flesh. So the Son and Spirit's work is from God. Father and Son are accepting of direct worship. Son and Spirit are in direct contact with flesh. Father and Spirit never came in the flesh. Each person of God does their part in harmony.

I see these three persons of God showing us we are supposed to work in unity with the other members of the body of Christ. The Father was never jealous of the Son or the Spirit, but yet all three have constantly worked in perfect unity. I see the trinity as God's way of showing us how to live, as well as his desire to be an integral part of our life. That is the whole beauty of the walk in the Spirit.


_________________
Hal Bachman

 2005/10/28 21:01Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re: Trinity Debate: Need Help

Quote:
1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.



Remember that the word "Christ" is Greek for "Anointed", and in Hebrew "Anointed" is "Massiah".
This verse is talking about Jesus in his Earthly life. It is also when He was totaly submissive to the Father (not saying that He isn't now, but, they are now unifide)

Quote:
1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.



Here we must see the word "Lord": kurios {koo'-ree-os}=Definition...
1) he to whom a person or thing belongs, about which he has power of deciding; master, lord
a) the possessor and disposer of a thing
1) the owner; one who has control of the person, the master
2) in the state: the sovereign, prince, chief, the Roman emperor
b) is a title of honour expressive of respect and reverence, with which servants greet their master
c) this title is given to: God, the Messiah
For Synonyms see entry 5830

This word equates Him with God the Father. The fact that God the Father is the only one with these attributes as the Lord Jesus Christ has also. Therefor makes them One in Unity, Perpose and essence.




 2005/10/29 14:47Profile





©2002-2020 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Affiliate Disclosure | Privacy Policy