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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Born Again By What Means

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rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


 Re:

Sis wrote:


Quote:
Nothing like new birth had ever happened before, nor the gifts of the Spirit, which demonstrated this 'power from on high' which Jesus had promised the Father would send.



Where then is this happening in post modern Europe and America?

Why are the churches in Europe being converted into Mosques?

Why are the Pentecostals barking like dogs?

Why are the Anglicans promoting gay bishops?

Why do the Emergent church programs satisfy the nonbelievers?

What is wrong with all these NT disciples who say they are born again?

Just a little rant....

Your brother in Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2007/11/30 3:14Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


 Re:

Brother Phillip...

There were also those who did not walk in their own light...

Psa. 56:13 For You have delivered my soul from death.
Have You not kept my feet from falling,
That I may walk before God
In the light of the living?

Psa. 89:15 Blessed are the people who know the joyful sound!
They walk, O LORD, in the light of Your countenance.

Is. 2:5 O house of Jacob, come and let us walk
In the light of the LORD.

Job 33:28 He will redeem his soul from going down to the Pit,
And his life shall see the light.

Job 33:30 To bring back his soul from the Pit,
That he may be enlightened with the light of life.

Psa. 27:1 The LORD is my light and my salvation;
Whom shall I fear?
The LORD is the strength of my life;
Of whom shall I be afraid?

Psa. 36:9 For with You is the fountain of life;
In Your light we see light.

Psa. 97:11 Light is sown for the righteous,
And gladness for the upright in heart.

Prov. 13:9 The light of the righteous rejoices,
But the lamp of the wicked will be put out.

Dan. 5:14 I have heard of you, that the Spirit of God is in you, and that light and understanding and excellent wisdom are found in you.




Job knew this light...

Job 29:3 When His lamp shone upon my head,
And when by His light I walked through darkness;

But many refuse to come into the light...

Your brother in Christ
Jeff



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Jeff Marshalek

 2007/11/30 3:34Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3708
Ca.

 Re:


How about...

Abraham
Joseph
Barnabas
Paul
John
James
Cornelius
Boaz
Moses
Joshua
Nehemiah
David
Ezekiel
Jeremiah
Isaiah
John the Baptist
Noah

But their is life in none of them. The only life is in Christ Jesus. 1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2Jo 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

None of these saints by the mercy of God could say that "Jesus Christ is come in the Flesh".

He has come in our flesh, our flesh not His own flesh, but in ours. "Is Come" is the answer, not has come, although He was in the flesh and was resurrected and now is come in our flesh.

That is "Christ in you the Hope of Glory".

John 8:43-58 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil? Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me. And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth. Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death. Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death. Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself? Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying. Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Abraham was saved by the mercy of God because he believed God (old testament salvation) and seeing and rejoicing in the day to come. Abraham still did not have Jesus Christ birthed in Him.

By the Grace of God we are saved by Faith and believe that Jesus Christ was, is and always will be the Son of God. This making us son's by the birthing of Christ in us the hope of Glory.

The difference is in the birthing, no birthing in the old testament, except in the flesh. The new testament birthing in the Spirit quickens the flesh to contain the presense of God, that is "Christ in you the HOpe of Glory".

We must see the difference or we are still of our father the devil. This is the way Israel is until this day because they have not received the birthing or Christ as the Messiah, but unto those that have, they are in Christ as we are in Christ, no Jew or Gentile, but Christ ones, son's of God.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2007/11/30 3:50Profile









 Re: Born Again By What Means



OK Jeff....:-) I haven't answered yet your latest questions to me, but I'll try to get back there.

Your persistence with the idea that Christ was formed in Old Testament saints, has driven me finally to do a word search on 'formed', and this is what I've come up with, with regard to the formation of Christ in man.


Galatians 4:19
My little children, of whom [u]I travail[/u] in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

Romans 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [i]to be[/i] conformed to the image of his Son, that He might be [u]the firstborn[/u] among many brethren.



Christ is [b]the firstborn among many brethren[/b].

This ties in with the scripture which makes us His brethren, distinct from the Old Testament saints, who had no opportunity to be called out of their generations of Adam (Gen 5:1) like we do.

They could never become part of 'the generation of Jesus Christ' (Matt 1:1, Rom 8:13 - 17).

The New Testament is clear that we are changed by our relationship with Jesus Christ (which did not exist in the Old Testament in the same terms as the New Testament), beginning with the hearing of the gospel of repentance which prepared the way for entrance by the Lord Himself, which makes us [u]new creations[/u]. This is another concept veiled in the Old Testament.

All the repentance required by God in the Old Testament, was to return from idolatry to keeping the law. To God, that was as intimate as He was prepared to get with them, while their sins could be only covered by the blood of sacrifices (Heb 10:4). He could not contemplate dwelling [i]within[/i] them as He does us by His Spirit, in the terms John recalls in his gospel account, until their [i]hearts[/i] could be washed in [u]His[/u] blood.

Jesus conversation with Nicodemus should inform us of how little of God's heart a religious leader in Israel had [u]comprehended[/u] - and this was a man who was [i]willing[/i] to search Jesus out for answers (albeit secretly). He wasn't an ordinary Pharisee who was unprepared to recognise the Messiah, even in the face of overwhelming evidence. Yet all his willingness did not give him spiritual insight.

John the Baptist had been operating prophetically in the spirit of Elijah, with some success, but after his death, we find the word of God coming to Caiaphas in his office as high priest, (even though Caiaphas was not really qualified by birthright for that role), showing that God had not yet completely abandoned His old religious order for the purposes of communicating and fulfilling His will.


These are extreme differences, Jeff, and are [u]meant[/u] to assist us in acknowledging and exalting Christ as He should be exalted - [i][b]far[/b][/i] above all.


Proverbs 6:23
For the commandment [i]is[/i] a lamp,
And the law a light;
Reproofs of instruction [i]are[/i] the way of life,


The law mentioned above, is the one by which revived the knowledge of sin, which God nailed to the cross.


2 Timothy 3
16 All Scripture [i]is[/i] given by inspiration of God, and [i]is[/i] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.



Having said all this, of course God's word reveals God to us, whether it is recorded in Genesis or Revelation. But, the significance of the Son's appearance as a Man, His preaching and teaching while on earth, His victory over sin, death and the devil, His resurrection, ascension and pentecost, all eclipse what had gone before, wonderful though that was. The birth of the Church from His riven side - the 'second Eve' as Wesley calls her - is how He determined to purify for Himself an eternal bride.

A great deal of [i]what happens next?[/i] is not in our gift, yet.

 2007/11/30 14:51
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


 Re:

Sis wrote:


Quote:
Christ is the firstborn among many brethren.

This ties in with the scripture which makes us His brethren, distinct from the Old Testament saints, who had no opportunity to be called out of their generations of Adam (Gen 5:1) like we do.



This is a favorite Scripture for the Jehovah Witness. They seek to establish that Christ was the first to be born or begotten of the Father. Whenever I come across this situation, I point to the cultural aspects of this terminology....Like the first born son in any family, he receives the inheritance because of his position above all others.

According to Scripture this is how I view Christ the "firstborn."
Col. 1:9 For this reason we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; 10 that you may walk worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing Him, being fruitful in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; 11 strengthened with all might, according to His glorious power, for all patience and longsuffering with joy; 12 giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light. 13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.

Col. 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

This view says that "all things were created" "through Him and for Him." "He is before all things."

'He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning"

1577. ejkklhsi√a ekklesia, ek-klay-see´-ah; from a compound of 1537 and a derivative of 2564; a calling out, i.e. (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both):—assembly, church.

Many look to the "church" only after Christ's ressurection, but the church is the remnant in all generations, those who are "called out."

Hebrews 1113 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

We all have hoped in things seen, but as we grow in maturity, through the process of sanctification, we all experience the separation from what we once hoped for, and now see our lives as "strangers and pilgrims on this earth"

We have both OT saints and NT saints who have the same love story. Those who live by faith will have their hopes and desires conformed to the same hopes and desires Christ has.


Quote:
All the repentance required by God in the Old Testament, was to return from idolatry to keeping the law.



Not according to Scripture...

Gal. 3:5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?— 6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.

Gal. 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” 11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.” 12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”

Gal. 3:13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Paul says this for those who follow the law...
11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.” 12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”

Look very closely to this verse..."Yet the law is not of faith."

So obeying the law does not satisfy or establish faith, but it remains a curse. No one ever was justified by (trying) to keep the law given to Moses on Mount Sinai.


Scripture says this about those who lived in the generations of the OT...

or by the hearing of faith?— 6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”

What does this mean, "hearing of faith." We know that God spoke to Abraham and gave him instructions in the path that he should take. Abraham listened and believed. This faith did not come from trying to obey a written code, but by obeying the voice of God.


Quote:
Jesus conversation with Nicodemus should inform us of how little of God's heart a religious leader in Israel had comprehended - and this was a man who was willing to search Jesus out for answers (albeit secretly).



Nicodemus lived in a generation where the word of God had long since disappeared in the religious leaders.


John 3:10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

What does Jesus mean when He says to Nicodemus..."We speak what We know and testify what We have seen...

Who is "we" and what are they testifying to Nicodemus about?


Quote:
These are extreme differences, Jeff, and are meant to assist us in acknowledging and exalting Christ as He should be exalted - far above all.



I see Christ in all of Scripture. I see Him working in all generations. Many see Him only as part of the Trinity after His ressurection...who has a high view of Christ?

Why do seek to reduce Him for the first 4000 years?


Quote:
Proverbs 6:23
For the commandment is a lamp,
And the law a light;
Reproofs of instruction are the way of life,




I believe this is speaking about the law of the Spirit...

Proverbs 1:23 Turn at my rebuke;
Surely I will pour out my spirit on you;
I will make my words known to you.

How else would we know "the way of life" if God through His Holy Spirit did not make His words known to us? The way of life is found in His Son, being conformed into His image.

Your brother in Christ
Jeff



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Jeff Marshalek

 2007/12/3 5:04Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


 Re:

Brother Phillip wrote:


Quote:
But their is life in none of them. The only life is in Christ Jesus. 1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.



Brother you are using this section of Scripture out of context. John wrote to the churches in Turkey about a cult who taught that Jesus did not come in the flesh but was only Spirit.

I believe that they were teaching that since Jesus lived a sinless life, He could not have been flesh.

Please correct me if I am wrong...

Quote:
He has come in our flesh, our flesh not His own flesh, but in ours. "Is Come" is the answer, not has come, although He was in the flesh and was resurrected and now is come in our flesh.



According to what you said above...is His flesh in our flesh? Or has He sent His Spirit to reside in our flesh?

Your brother in Christ
Jeff



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Jeff Marshalek

 2007/12/3 6:21Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


 Re:

Brother Phillip:

John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

Is this promise, that those who "followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life." the same thing that is spoken of in this Scripture...

Job 33:
25 His flesh shall be young like a child’s,
He shall return to the days of his youth.
26 He shall pray to God, and He will delight in him,
He shall see His face with joy,
For He restores to man His righteousness.
27 Then he looks at men and says,
“I have sinned, and perverted what was right,
And it did not profit me.’
28 He will redeem his soul from going down to the Pit,
And his life shall see the light.

It this promise also spoken of in this Scripture...

Psa. 36:9 For with thee is the fountain of life: in thy light shall we see light.

Who ever had this light did they have the life that "restores to man His righteousness."?






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Jeff Marshalek

 2007/12/3 6:31Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3708
Ca.

 Re:

http://mp3.biblebase.com/mp3/LesWheeldon/20060531pm.MP3

It takes about 30 seconds to load.

This is why Christ being formed in you after the cross is different than before.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2007/12/4 2:33Profile





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