So on what basis do you judge that another person's claim to 'have the witness in himself', is as valid as yours to have the witness in yourself?
_________________Ron Bailey
sorry, it only posted part of my response, so I deleted this and reposted.
i had a revelation from the Lord some time ago about scripture. it is brethed of God's Spirit and requires God's Spirit to interpret it and minister to us. in addition there is much more to scripture than what is on the surface, there are things between the written lines (for lack of a better expression) or deeper things in scripture which at first glance may appear to be non-biblical. Perhaps we should always be aware that there are things in scripture that the Lord hasn't revealed to us yet? this is not to say that everything "non-biblical" is of God but rather that what the Lord has revealed to bro X may not be known to bro Y, in short none of us know it all as it pertains to scripture.
The issue as I see it is that someone comes along with an experience, a dream, or a vision and voila, a new cult is born! We have every obligation to judge every claim made by anyone according to the revelation of scripture! Ron, you are right on target, and led by the Spirit of Truth in pointing out the spirit of error that is being demonstrated in this thread.Hans, sorry but Jesus did give us permission to ask HIM in prayer,"Whatever you ask in my name, that will I DO, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask ME anything in MY name, I WILL DO IT."John 14:13&14.Hans, did God the Father tell you specifically to start a website to relate your dreams and revelations to the rest of Christendom? Or did you assume since you had a dream that you were ordained by God to proclaim some new "truth" about the proper form of prayer to the Father?Its nice that you had dreams and revelations and deliverances, so have I! I have subjected mine to the Spirit of truth as revealed in the Scripture and I have also subjected them to the Mind of the Lord through prayer, and guess what, they were all of my own flesh!You had an experience, so did Ellen White and Joseph Smith. Reconsider the path you are on.
I am reading an old Quaker book called 'Christian Discipline of the society of friends' printed in 1883. It is a fascinating book and shows the Quakers of that time to have been solidly evangelical and evangelistic. There is a section relating to the resurrection body of Christ which says ...how and what manner of change it met withal after it was raised from the dead, so as to become such a glorious body as it is declared to be, is too wonderful for mortals to conceive. The Scripture is silent as to the manner thereof, and [u]we are not curious to inquire about or to dispute it; nor do we esteem it necessary to make ourselves wise above what is written[/u], as to the manner or condition of Christ's glorious body in heaven...It was the section that I have underlined which caught my attention. There is a deep wisdom here, would that they had stayed on this path! For myself I would walk this path; I have no wish to be 'wise above what is written'. In this sense. like many a man before me, I am more than content to be 'a man of one book'.I fear that the church may be passing through an Athenian stage! May it 'pass' quickly! (For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.) (Acts 17:21, KJVS)
(For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.) (Acts 17:21, KJVS)
_________________Mike Balog
quote:"How many things cross through these fallen minds of ours that at one time we think are from an inward witness, from the Lord that upon further investigation (against scripture) or the passing of time prove to be in error?"There is a big difference between thinking something and having the LIGHT of God instruct you. When the Light of God shines, it touches your soul and you know it in every fiber of your being. It's a lot different than reasoning and thought. You also need to look at the flip side of your question. "Do you cling to literalist interpretations of the Bible when nature, God's work, tells us something completely different?" (I'm thinking the book of Genesis here.)Bub
Dear JimBon and Philologos,The Jehovah's Witnesses objectify the bible. Because of this, they dismiss one crucial revelation that is personally reveal to every converted believer. This revelation is the Trinity. They deny the diety of Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit.No where in the bible does it say that Jesus Christ is God. It refers to Him as Lord and King. However, according the the Witnesses, Jesus can be a Lord and King and yet still be less than God. The bible says that Jesus and God are one. However, the bible also says a husband and wife are one. And yet, husbands and wives are still seperate. Additionally, these points of where Jesus and God are said to be one are not clear. They are stated in different ways in different translations. No where in the bible does it clearly state that Jesus Christ is God. There are illusions and references, but it is not clear.This is important. This is the secret kept hidden from everyone until the proper time. Only those who have given themselves unto Christ and are born of the Spirit can know this revelation. The reason for this is that we are to walk by faith. Our faith is in Jesus Christ. When we believe that Jesus Christ is God, then we are accepting Him as our Lord and savior. We are submitting unto His authority. We do it as an act of love. We make a choice. If everyone knew that Jesus was God, then we could not choose Him out of love. We would choose Him selfishly because He is God. We would seek salvation not to be saved, but rather to profit our own selfish ways. You know of the people I am speaking. These are the people that believe in God but deny Christ. They are like the Pharisees and are self-righteous.Rather, this fact (that Jesus is God) has been hidden so that we take a leap of faith. We step out in faith to believe in Christ. Then, when we do, He reveals to us the truth: Jesus is God. He is supreme. He is Lord over all. He is almighty. He is the host of hosts. The Jehovah's Witnesses base thier entire faith on the bible. They follow it like a book of law written to command and control thier lives. Look at how far they have fallen from the truth because of this. If the bible were truly the object or basis for faith, then why would we need faith? God would have given us the final word in the bible. Who would need faith? It is finalized with the bible. Do you see how this is wrong? The basis of our faith is on Jesus. We are Christians, are we not? We mimic Christ. We follow Christ. He lives inside of us, does He not? Once we submit to Christ and are revealed of His diety by the Holy Spirit (once we are born again), then the bible becomes the word of God for us personally. Only when we are born again can we become conscious of what God is really saying in the bible. By this, scripture does not become our object of faith for even the bible is still subject to Christ, rather, the bible becomes a strengthener of our faith. It will make "wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus" by adding to our experience. However, the bible is not the basis for it. Was it not you, my dear friend Ron, who argued for Tozer believing that we needed to experience a death unto the law? This experience is not revealed to us by the bible, for if it was then we would all be saved the minute we read it. Rather, this experience is accomplished through Christ. We die with Christ.If you objectify the bible and say there is no revelation apart from what is in the bible, then who can be saved? Salvation only comes from Christ. Lastly, the bible, scripture, was written by men and women filled with the Holy Spirit. God had revealed unto them truth. Likewise, has not God revealed unto you truth? Is not the Holy Spirit called the Spirit of Truth? And so, is your faith based upon the revelation of the bible (of other men and women)? Or is it based upon personal testimony of Christ in you? In love,Blake
_________________Blake Kidney
Beenblake,Did I imply my faith was in the Bible alone? You probably should re-read my post. The mormons will ask you to verify the truth of the book of mormon through a subjective experience called a "burning in the bossom". You can have all the subjective experiences you want, I've had plenty myself, yet I test them all to see if they are from God. The evangelical/charasmatic denominations are full to the brim of people running on their own steam and following their own visions, why should I not test them as I test myself?And when I test anything, I have a standard to use, and I would rather objectify the Bible, than to subjectify it(to my own pressupositions) wouldn't you? Or do you judge scripture according to your own experiences and pressupositions first, and then find scripture to support them? Not every little dream or thought that pops into our heads is from God, Christians, especially those that claim they are leaders, are capable of hubris too.
I had left this thread and started a new one addressing Mike,and the Church at SI. I just looked at this and found some comments I feel I have to address. HansQUOTE from JIMBOBThe issue as I see it is that someone comes along with an experience, a dream, or a vision and voila, a new cult is born! We have every obligation to judge every claim made by anyone according to the revelation of scripture! Ron, you are right on target, and led by the Spirit of Truth in pointing out the spirit of error that is being demonstrated in this thread.Hans, sorry but Jesus did give us permission to ask HIM in prayer,"Whatever you ask in my name, that will I DO, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask ME anything in MY name, I WILL DO IT."John 14:13&14.Hans, did God the Father tell you specifically to start a website to relate your dreams and revelations to the rest of Christendom? Or did you assume since you had a dream that you were ordained by God to proclaim some new "truth" about the proper form of prayer to the Father?Its nice that you had dreams and revelations and deliverances, so have I! I have subjected mine to the Spirit of truth as revealed in the Scripture and I have also subjected them to the Mind of the Lord through prayer, and guess what, they were all of my own flesh!You had an experience, so did Ellen White and Joseph Smith. Reconsider the path you are on.UNQUOTEThis is the question that has to be asked. WHAT PATH AM I ON?Thank you jimbob, for this post. I appreciate your candor. I only wished that some of you would go further than to just post with some label, rather than letting us know who you are.This, Church of SI brings us to the truth. It has to, for we have to know the truth, it is the only thing that will set us free. This is what our Lord Jesus promised us, that we would know the truth and it would set us free. It is for exactly that reason that I asked your concurrence to explain myself rather than having to debate every point. Let me explain myself and you test it; that is YOUR task. You HAVE TO; OTHERWISE INDEED ANOTHER CULT WILL BE BORN!I will start a new thread called the Schemes of the Devil. There is no way that I can follow two or three threads on this Forum. Write for my own website, and meet the other obligations the Lord has brought on my path. If this does interest you, please follow along on this thread. It is because I test everything against Scripture that I say the things I say.
...how and what manner of change it met withal after it was raised from the dead, so as to become such a glorious body as it is declared to be, is too wonderful for mortals to conceive. The Scripture is silent as to the manner thereof, and we are not curious to inquire about or to dispute it; nor do we esteem it necessary to make ourselves wise above what is written, as to the manner or condition of Christ's glorious body in heaven...
_________________Hans Prang