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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : This is War!!??

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RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re:

Hi Patrick,

I suppose I shall leave it at that.



_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2005/10/20 15:04Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re:

Hi Compton,

Quote:
It seems impossible for one who is morally concerned to be politically unconcerned because political issues are moral issues, and political legislation is moral legislation.



A great concern I have had for many years has been the ongoing so-called abortion rights issue. There never was a right; it was created from the bench in 1973. The misconception here is that we are trying to take ground for the Kingdom, when in reality we are trying to recover ground we have surrendered. This nation was born more or less during the First Great Awakening. Finney stood against slavery and was a major influence on that issue during the Second Great Awakening. What is impossible for me to imagine is that how if we have revival in this land and its supposed to change the face of the culture- how is that going to happen if every time someone gets saved they opt-out of their position of influence?

God Bless,

-Robert


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2005/10/20 15:28Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Quote:
Morality without the blood of Christ is a waste of time and a Satanic lie no matter what package you wrap it in.



Patrick,

I can agree that to expect biblical morality without blood of Christ and subsequent indwelling of the Holy Spirit is a futile hope. For the Christian to preach "Christian" morality without Christ would be tragically counter-Christian and in some cases even anti-Christ. It could be said that when
the Church is co-opted by the state...it's is the Church and not the world that has been converted.

However, I don't see how recognizing these important truths prohibits a Christian from participating in political process. Can't we can go to the voting both and still be of Christ?

Edit: Robert sums up the catch 22, quandary, impasse, lose-lose situation and general pickle I was trying to express...
Quote:
What is impossible for me to imagine is that how if we have revival in this land and its supposed to change the face of the culture- how is that going to happen if every time someone gets saved they opt-out of their position of influence?



MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2005/10/20 15:58Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Quote:
What is impossible for me to imagine is that how if we have revival in this land and its supposed to change the face of the culture- how is that going to happen if every time someone gets saved they opt-out of their position of influence?



Isn't it in the Revival Hymn where God moved on the people of Wales or some place in England where the jails closed down because the Spirit of God caused it to be? Was it because of the government or the prayerful preacher that turned wicked men towards God?

Preaching in the streets of Sodom and Gamorrah is infinitely better that putting one's hope in another man.

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2005/10/20 16:21Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re:

Hi Jeff,

Quote:
Preaching in the streets of Sodom and Gamorrah is infinitely better that putting one's hope in another man.



Absolutely.

Quote:
Was it because of the government or the prayerful preacher that turned wicked men towards God?



Certainly it was the Holy Spirit moving. In this case there was in many cases no need for preaching even. Only the Holy Spirit can change hearts. Finney believed it was our job to change our own heart; but the psalmist cried out for God to do the work.

Create in me a clean heart, [u]O God[/u]; and renew a right spirit within me (Psalm 51:10)

In this I believe we are all in complete harmony. The question is, what are we to do whilst the sinner is still sporting a stoney heart? The very basis on which our law enforcement officers operate is that they execute the laws of the land. When someone transgresses those laws there are penalties (Romans 13). God has given our leaders authority and they function within our legal system. This legal system weilds tremendous control over everything from traffic to the classroom. It is the legal system that very possibly could bring street preaching to an end. It could render it illegal to preach the full counsel of God's word in the churches. And while we still have legal rights to minister we need to protect those rights.

No, we cannot legislate morality, but we can certainly sit back (as has happened for decades now) and watch the philosophy of this world overrun the marketplace of ideas until everyone does what is right in their own eyes.

When I was in High School in the 1980's certain behaviors were not accepted at all. In a span of 10 years we watched the whole of our culture slide down towards Sodom. What if they had a Josiah come to power?

When the righteous are increased, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man beareth rule, the people sigh. (Proverbs 29:2 ASV)

God Bless,

-Robert






_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2005/10/20 16:55Profile
GaryE
Member



Joined: 2005/4/26
Posts: 376
Mifflinburg, Pennsylvania

 Re:

Brother Robert,

Quote:
What if they had a Josiah come to power?

.................................................

The kings anointing, the priests anointing, and the prophets anointing were three different things. The king could not take on priestly duties. When a king did right in the sight of the Lord like Josiah or Hezekiah, there was revival in the land. Sin was rooted out of the land when the king was a godly king. These revivals did not just happen in Judea, the posts were taken to Israel too. In Josiah’s day the ashes were poured out at the altar at Bethel which is in Israel where Josiah wasn't king.

In the U.S. the government is much like a kingship authority. Though this authority is divided up among different people instead of on man, the need for a Godly government is real. I really don’t know that we will ever have a Josiah type government, but I do know that if the people of this land ever did vote for a Godly government that the sins of this land would be broken down just as the high places in Josiah’s day. For one thing the god Molech {abortion} would be destroyed.

The shepherds {Ezekiel 34} who did not look out after the sheep were people who had a God given authority that they abused. They fed themselves and not the sheep. People in authority are the shepherds and it is important that they use that authority in a godly manner. People in government have authority, pastors have authority, and all Christians to some degree have authority. It is important that we use the authority that God has given us in a Godly manner. Voting is an authority that has been placed in our hands and when we don’t vote we are just as guilty as the man with the abortion clinic.

In the U.S. we have a God given opportunity to influence our government by voting.

In Christ,
GaryE



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Gary Eckenroth

 2005/10/20 21:34Profile
Christisking
Member



Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 671
Los Angeles, California

 Re:

Quote:

“It is important that we use the authority that God has given us in a Godly manner. Voting is an authority that has been placed in our hands and when we don’t vote we are just as guilty as the man with the abortion clinic.”

Are you suggestion that there is a Godly option in America? The social conscience and African American Christians almost solely support the democrats as being the Godly option. The “force morality through legislation” and white American Christians almost solely support the Republicans as being the Godly option. Both claim to be Spirit filled Christians and yet both can’t be right. Secular, Church and Biblical history support the minority being right, and social conscience politics is Godly - remember the great separation and the sheep and goats - so am I supposed to support the “baby killing democrats”? On the other hand, abortion is murder and Hollywood is out of control spreading MTV type crap and filth to are nation and our children virtually unchecked, so am I supposed to support the poor hating, big business loving, money hungry republicans. I think we all agree that both political parties and their candidates are evil and to some degree. But when the argument degenerates to who is less evil, you must agree your vote supports evil. To support evil in any degree puts you in the same category as the abortion doctors, right? But shouldn’t you be reaching out to the abortion doctors with the love and gospel of Jesus instead of throwing verbal stones at them from across the street? Salt and light doesn’t throw stones verbal or literal at the sinners of the world. Jesus loves the abortion doctors and died for them the same as he loves and died for you. Do you love the abortion doctors and weep for them in love? Ah, maybe that’s the problem?

The point is the principalities and powers of the earth are from Satan. This includes both republican and democrat - both are principalities and powers of the earth. Neither is any more Godly than the other. So to vote for either one is to cast a vote for evil. Now, I will vote, but only for a Godly man, a suffering servant God whose sole goal and purpose on earth is Jesus Christ and the furtherance of His Kingdom. So I will write in Art Katz, Dave Wilkerson, or Zac Poonen even though I can say with almost certainty none of these men would accept the job as politician if offered. But a vote for republican is just as evil as a vote for democrat and you won’t find me casting a ballot for evil of any degree.


_________________
Patrick Ersig

 2005/10/21 2:02Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. (Ephesians 5:11)

How many political leaders of today would fall under this group who are of the darkness?

Dick Chenney, Carl Rove, Tom Delay, Donald Rumsfield, Ted Kennedy, Diane Fienstien, Barbara Boxer, Barney Franks, and just how many others of the current government are walking in darkeness?

Is not the vast majority the sons of Satan?

There are only two types of people, the sons of God and the sons of Satan.

Genesis 3:15, And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.”

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2005/10/21 11:12Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Getting back to the topic of the thread.

World War 1 was said to be the war that would end all wars. Both the Germans and the English claimed God was on their side. How then was a believer in Christ to obey those in authority over him?

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2005/10/21 11:14Profile





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